USGamer: Xbox Series X Will Require Proprietary Cards to Expand Hard Drive Space (USB HDDs still supported for backups and playing BC games)

SpaceCrystal · Mar 18, 2020

I won't be surprised if Sony goes down that same path.

crazillo said:
It's the best solution they could have come up with. If you want some next-gen tech, outdated tech cannot be supported anymore.

Chucker said:
This was super expected. People want bleeding edge until they're reminded of what bleeding edge costs.

These. I can understand where they're coming from if they want to be able to run next gen stuff. People want faster loading times among other shit, then that's what is going to happen.

R0987 · Mar 18, 2020

LudicrousSpeed said:
You're using the USB drive as cold storage.

Whatever you're actively playing is on the fast drive. You buy something new, you want to play it, so you take something off the drive and move it to the USB. You can't run the game from there, but the system can keep those installs patched and ready to go. If you want to play it again, you don't have to redownload it or reinstall from disc and then apply patches, just shift it back on the fast drive.

Dont ssd still have limited read/write cycles people will be writing to and from that drive for years lets just hope that it doesnt wear the drives out too fast.

Deleted member 20297 · Mar 18, 2020

R0987 said:
Dont ssd still have limited read/write cycles people will be writing to and from that drive for years lets just hope that it doesnt wear the drives out too fast.

It is somewhat limited but in a typical gaming workload where you don't write several TB a day, it will be okay for both next-gen consoles.

CreepingFear · Mar 18, 2020

R0987 said:
Dont ssd still have limited read/write cycles people will be writing to and from that drive for years lets just hope that it doesnt wear the drives out too fast.

You don't have to worry about that unless you are writing 24/7. Don't worry. By the time the drive wears out, you will have moved on to the next generation Xbox with faster storage technology.

Arthands · Mar 18, 2020

McScroggz said:
As a non-tech guy, proprietary storage is a headache but it seems reasonable considering the custom nature. I'll reserve judgment until we know price and whether the proprietary storage is really a necessity or not (I assume it is).

I think for an average PC user, its understandable. Installing the NVMe SSD the same way as PC will have been too complicated for an average console player. Microsoft's solution is literally plugging it in and couldn't be anymore easier.

@dedmunk · Mar 18, 2020

Instead of making it a proprietary solution they should have formed a consortium like the BDA to come up with the format and allow vendors to make their own products.

JamRock7 · Mar 18, 2020

SpaceCrystal said:
I won't be surprised if Sony goes down that same path.

These. I can understand where they're coming from if they want to be able to run next gen stuff. People want faster loading times among other shit, then that's what is going to happen.

They already had a patent for it last year. Xbox doing it was a surprise

Edward850 · Mar 18, 2020

Arthands said:
I think for an average PC user, its understandable. Installing the NVMe SSD the same way as PC will have been too complicated for an average console player. Microsoft's solution is literally plugging it in and couldn't be anymore easier.

It also looks like cooling has been incorporated as part of its design, which is extremely important for high performance SSDs. I can't imagine how you'd do that with the existing PC solutions while keeping it simple.

Gay Bowser · Mar 18, 2020

risq_au said:
Instead of making it a proprietary solution they should have formed a consortium like the BDA to come up with the format and allow vendors to make their own products.

I mean, the expansion module they've shown does have a Seagate logo on it. It's possible multiple vendors will be able to make these drives.

Carbon · Mar 18, 2020

JamRock7 said:
They already had a patent for it last year. Xbox doing it was a surprise

A yes, the infamous cartridge patent...

PS5 cartridges aren't real, patents are for Sony kids toys

Just as we predicted, the purported PlayStation 5 cartridges aren't actually for a console, but for Sony's Toio line of kids toys.

www.tweaktown.com

....Those are by all accounts for Sony's Toio line of programmable toys. Doesn't mean Sony can't still make an expandable storage option, but I don't think that's it.

risq_au said:
Instead of making it a proprietary solution they should have formed a consortium like the BDA to come up with the format and allow vendors to make their own products.

I mean, Microsoft isn't making this themselves, Seagate is. And we don't know yet if Seagate will be the exclusive partner. Right now the wording is "launch partner", which leaves the door open for other vendors down the line. And a better standard IS coming, it's called USB 4. We're 12-18 months out from high end pc components starting to ship with that new standard. So the refresh to these consoles might very well be able to run games from external hardware again (albeit, from a fast NVME-based drive).

JamRock7 · Mar 18, 2020

Carbon said:
A yes, the infamous cartridge patent...

Lmao I forgot how that turned out 😅
Still thinking we'll see something similar. Almost a given anyways

Banderdash · Mar 18, 2020

I'm sure we'll see third party cards after launch.
Cheaper, and with larger capacity.

Pryme · Mar 18, 2020

JamRock7 said:
They already had a patent for it last year. Xbox doing it was a surprise

That patent wasn't for the PS5.

No real surprise with MS doing it since their hardware reveal already had a slot on the back that just happened to be SSD sized.

JustinH · Mar 18, 2020

SpaceCrystal said:
I won't be surprised if Sony goes down that same path.

Yeah, I'm really curious to see how Sony handles this. Like the games will expect that hardware, so what could they do? Will there be a user-replaceable storage option that is PCIE4 (Or whatever it is) compliant? Will you be able to play next gen games only on the internal storage or need to use some kind of solution similar to Microsoft's?

Really looking forward to the presentation later today. Hopefully they detail stuff like this.

JershJopstin · Mar 18, 2020

If high storage performance is necessary to run your software, then you need to control what storage devices your customers can run. This was really the only solution.

The cost will determine whether people buy in. They didn't have to enable Series X storage on USB devices, so that's nice.

Deleted member 20297 · Mar 18, 2020

SpaceCrystal said:
I won't be surprised if Sony goes down that same path.

Their SSD is rumored to be even more special so I doubt we will see something different.

R0987 · Mar 18, 2020

c0de said:
It is somewhat limited but in a typical gaming workload where you don't write several TB a day, it will be okay for both next-gen consoles.

CreepingFear said:
You don't have to worry about that unless you are writing 24/7. Don't worry. By the time the drive wears out, you will have moved on to the next generation Xbox with faster storage technology.

Still the idea of my console becoming a paperweight if the internal storage decides to crap out prematurely just doesnt sit right with me.

TheOldestGamer · Mar 18, 2020

People arent looking at this right. Usb sticks or even ssd hard drives wont come close to the speed of nvme. This is an extension of the velocity architecture. The fact you can expand the internal nvme drive space is a great idea. New games coded for the velocity feature set will only make use of this space but everything can benefit from the speed.

ForthU · Mar 18, 2020

this is super bullshit, PS5 will be probably like this too. we're experiencing another "online paywall" thing we're blindly accepting despite being super-anticonsumer. ffs

Deleted member 20297 · Mar 18, 2020

R0987 said:
Still the idea of my console becoming a paperweight if the internal storage decides to crap out prematurely just doesnt sit right with me.

It was even worse with spinning disks in consoles, believe me.

Trup1aya · Mar 18, 2020

MegaManTrigger said:
Except that's not how it works at all. The old drives would not be used to store anything other than previous gen games according to MS.

"You can continue to use your existing USB 3.1+ external hard drives on Xbox Series X and you can run Xbox One, 360 and OG Xbox games directly from the external USB HDD," explains a Microsoft spokesperson. "Games optimized for Xbox Series X and the Velocity Architecture need to be run from the internal SSD or the Expandable Storage Drive."

Source: https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/16/...sion-cards-removable-storage-support-features

This says that series X games must be RUN from the internal SSD or expansion drive. It does not say they cannot be STORED elsewhere. Watch the DF videos.

Xbox Series X eschews storage standards for proprietary expansion “card”

USB hard drives can still be used for backup storage, though.

www.google.com

The Series X will still support standardized USB 3.2 hard drives, according to the Digital Foundry report, but those can only be used to natively run backward-compatible games designed for previous Xbox systems (the Xbox One, 360, and original Xbox). For Series X games, a USB hard drive can only be used as a backup solution, where you can "park" games that then need to be shuffled over to the internal storage to be played.

Why did you come to the conclusion that data can't be moved between drives?

Velikost · Mar 18, 2020

RingRang said:
So you're saying they should have included more storage and made the console more expensive? That's a better alternative to just having the people who want more storage just buying it later?

Nah I would rather they bite the bullet and actually future proof the console than resort to the weird proprietary shit they did on 360 for years.

Do y'all work for Microsoft or something

melodiousmowl · Mar 18, 2020

Velikost said:
Nah I would rather they bite the bullet and actually future proof the console than resort to the weird proprietary shit they did on 360 for years.

Do y'all work for Microsoft or something

i think there'sa chance these will be $100tb or less.

how?

no controller in the cart
means no or less dram on the cart

why?

security. if you watch their presentation at that security conference, moving the main communication bits outside where they can be touched makes sense

and honestly, you can't rely on consumers to buy a drive that has the right stats even if it allowed you to use of the shelf parts

Siresly · Mar 18, 2020

Proprietary storage solutions have always sucked and always will.
Ideally should be able to use any M2 drive that satisfies whatever requirements Microsoft has set.
I'm not an expert and may be entirely wrong, but believe there are things Microsoft could have done, but opted not to do.
For instance allow for both these cartridges and regular drives. I get the impression that people in here are arguing for one or the other, but why not both?

I expect Sony will do the same.

melodiousmowl · Mar 18, 2020

Siresly said:
Proprietary storage solutions have always sucked and always will.
Ideally should be able to use any M2 drive that satisfies whatever requirements Microsoft has set.
I'm not an expert and may be entirely wrong, but believe there are things Microsoft could have done, but opted not to do.
For instance allow for both these cartridges and regular drives. I get the impression that people in here are arguing for one or the other, but why not both?

I expect Sony will do the same.

i get it, i am disappointed it's not a slot for an off the shelf nvme drive, but i have guessed for ages it wouldn't be because consumers are not educated enough and shouldn't have to be to get the right product

hell, take me out of my sphere of knowledge and this is proven immediately

Arthands · Mar 18, 2020

ForthU said:
this is super bullshit, PS5 will be probably like this too. we're experiencing another "online paywall" thing we're blindly accepting despite being super-anticonsumer. ffs

Feel free to buy a PC next gen.

fourfourfun · Mar 18, 2020

I get the rationale but this killed the Vita for me.

Masterspeed · Mar 18, 2020

Andri said:
Vita can tell Xbox how well that will end.

It worked fine for years with the 360 with their external HDDs.

There were a lot of other reasons behind vitas death than their overpriced memory cards.

Outrun · Mar 18, 2020

fourfourfun said:
I get the rationale but this killed the Vita for me.

Then pretend that it doesn't exist.

Use the 1TB, and then upgrade to the 3 TB model after a year.

Turkishflavor · Mar 18, 2020

ForthU said:
this is super bullshit, PS5 will be probably like this too. we're experiencing another "online paywall" thing we're blindly accepting despite being super-anticonsumer. ffs

Do you have a better idea? I mean is there something on the market with the same speed, size and heat dissipation?

R0987 · Mar 18, 2020

c0de said:
It was even worse with spinning disks in consoles, believe me.

If you are talking about the hdd in preceding consoles then I disagree with you an example: if the hdd in my PS3/4 would die I could simply replace it myself and the console would function again if the ssd in my PS5 would die outside of warranty the console might as well be a decorative piece because that would be the only thing it would still be good for.

bmfrosty · Mar 18, 2020

Manfred said:
Maybe it has changed during last month, but previously Intel didn't licensed TB for anything else than an Intel architecture.

Yup "NVME" names a controller and "PCIE 4" a bus : that says nothing about card specs. That thing doesn't look like full drive (where the controller is embedded) but more just a PCB with flash cells.

I suppose that they could leave the controller logic in the system and just expose the pins for the flash chips through the connector.

That doesn't track well though. Too many pins. To electrically fragile.

Respawn · Mar 18, 2020

OrbitalBeard said:
The difference between Vita and Series X is that Vita didn't need to use proprietary media, whereas the need for it in the case of Xbox actually makes sense. I'm completely fine with this.

What's your thoughts now that the Xbox X is proprietary and PS5 is not?

Deleted member 3017 · Mar 18, 2020

Respawn said:
What's your thoughts now that the Xbox X is proprietary and PS5 is not?

I'm still ok with how MS is handling it, but it's actually a surprise to me that Sony is allowing third party drives.

MCD · Mar 18, 2020

fourfourfun said:
I get the rationale but this killed the Vita for me.

Vita is a portable device with limited storage options.

Not the same situation at all.

defaltoption · Mar 18, 2020

R0987 said:
Dont ssd still have limited read/write cycles people will be writing to and from that drive for years lets just hope that it doesnt wear the drives out too fast.

The other parts in a console will fail years before ssds fail due to wear, of course there's always ones that will fail early like any product but in general it can take 100s of full re writes, there are ssds that are rated for 1 petabyte which is 1000 terabytes not these but just saying

bmfrosty · Mar 18, 2020

OrbitalBeard said:
I'm still ok with how MS is handling it, but it's actually a surprise to me that Sony is allowing third party drives.

Hopefully this will spur a policy change for MS.

Bjones · Mar 18, 2020

I wonder if ms will some sort of lock out chip on these to keep third parties from making unofficial adapters.

Soapbox Killer · Mar 18, 2020

The should ship games on this format. I'm sure Rockstar could find a way to fill up half of the storage.

ILikeFeet · Mar 18, 2020

Soapbox Killer said:
The should ship games on this format. I'm sure Rockstar could find a way to fill up half of the storage.

it'd be like the switch situation but worse

Soapbox Killer · Mar 18, 2020

ILikeFeet said:
it'd be like the switch situation but worse

Huh?

ILikeFeet · Mar 18, 2020

Soapbox Killer said:
Huh?

publishers find the switch carts too expensive, and this format would be even more expensive

THEVOID · Mar 18, 2020

Respawn said:
What's your thoughts now that the Xbox X is proprietary and PS5 is not?

It's basically the same to me - Proprietary or Certified. Most important is the price comparison. That's all people care about.

Scottoest · Mar 18, 2020

I don't mind that they are opting for a proprietary format, and they made a pretty good argument for why that is - because these are basically designed to behave exactly the same as the internal storage, with the same performance.

I just hope their plan is to allow third-parties to make competing options.

Beyond that, it just comes down to price. If these things are price-competitive with NVMe drives, then it's a non-issue.

I actually wonder if Son'y opting for a less regulated alternative, will kind of "hurt" devs' ability to make full use of the faster internal SSD in creative ways, since they can't be guaranteed that their game will actually be running off of it - it could be running off of an expansion drive with lesser specs. Microsoft is opting for a more closed, but potentially much more consistent option (for developers).

MegaManTrigger · Mar 18, 2020

ILikeFeet said:
publishers find the switch carts too expensive, and this format would be even more expensive

That's not the same at all. Not sure where you even thought that comparison from. One is regarding a company that needs to pay money to get games published, the other is consumers needing to pay out of pocket for proprietary SSDs. Publishers have nothing to do with consumers going off and buying SSDs for extra storage.

THE RABID MOOSE · Mar 18, 2020

The base storage of 1 TB even if it is SSD is not enough. Games are freaking huge these days, which means these memory cards will be in high demand.

THEVOID · Mar 18, 2020

THE RABID MOOSE said:
The base storage of 1 TB even if it is SSD is not enough. Games are freaking huge these days, which means these memory cards will be in high demand.

It's a luxury and not a necessity. We all already have huge USB drives and for most that'll be enough.

Deleted member 17092 · Mar 18, 2020

I don't ever really play more than a few games at a time so it's fine I guess.

Iwao · Mar 18, 2020

Sony definitely has the better all round long-term solution for their SSD implementation.

XSX will be limited to the expansion card SKUs that they choose to release and those will only go up to a certain amount, whereas the certified NVMe will likely offer more flexibility in terms of drive size, and that is exciting. The price of higher storage? Probably not as exciting.

THEVOID · Mar 18, 2020

Iwao said:
Sony definitely has the better all round long-term solution for their SSD implementation.

XSX will be limited to the expansion cart SKUs that they choose to release and those will only go up to a certain amount, whereas the certified NVMe will likely offer more flexibility in terms of drive size, and that is exciting. The price of higher storage? Probably not as exciting.

We don't know that.

USGamer: Xbox Series X Will Require Proprietary Cards to Expand Hard Drive Space (USB HDDs still supported for backups and playing BC games)

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