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Ada

Member
Nov 28, 2017
3,736
For those of you who are complaining who also own PCs. How large is your PC's SSD? How much was it?
  • Drive 1: 500GB SATA £80 a few years ago
  • Drive 2: 1TB NVME £120 a few months ago
I'm expecting the proprietary drive to not cost that much more than the 2nd drive. However I don't expect the price to fall soon if at all over the consoles life. 1 use devices are easy markups for vendors, once they have you locked in you pay up or do without. In a few years time when a 1TB drive is dirt cheap these sticks will still cost more.

MS should have offered a NVME enclosure(with heat sink) with the console and maintained a white list of compatible drives which would work with the console. Then offer the same seagate options for the less tech informed and smarter customers could go out and find better drives for less.
 
Mar 11, 2019
549
I fully expected some kind of proprietary expendable ssd's for both the next gen consoles (still need to wait and see what sony will come up with). And this is a requirement to take advantage of the custom arrangement of the system and avoid potential bugs/compatibility when this is not the case, and as a opportunity to have an additional revenue.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,389
  • Drive 1: 500GB SATA £80 a few years ago
  • Drive 2: 1TB NVME £120 a few months ago
I'm expecting the proprietary drive to not cost that much more than the 2nd drive. However I don't expect the price to fall soon if at all over the consoles life. 1 use devices are easy markups for vendors, once they have you locked in you pay up or do without. In a few years time when a 1TB drive is dirt cheap these sticks will still cost more.

MS should have offered a NVME enclosure(with heat sink) with the console and maintained a white list of compatible drives which would work with the console. Then offer the same seagate options for the less tech informed and smarter customers could go out and find better drives for less.

I imagine people will take the card apart and inside its just an M.2 which we could theoretically change out for another.
Almost def we will see third party version of this card in the wild before the generation is over.
 

Ada

Member
Nov 28, 2017
3,736
I imagine people will take the card apart and inside its just an M.2 which we could theoretically change out for another.
Almost def we will see third party version of this card in the wild before the generation is over.
In the DF videos they showed the card disassembled, looks fully custom to me.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
In the DF videos they showed the card disassembled, looks fully custom to me.

Yeah this is what I didn't want to see. Now we're forced to use a particular kind when we most likely have SSDs that can provide the same performance. Sony's version for their PS5s will probably be identical.

Proprietary until someone comes up with a NVMe adapter.

It's worth mentioning that NVMe adapters are not consistent. People have done this for the MacBooks and found a litany of issues ranging from: 1) increased heat from using M.2 > NVMe adapter, 2) sleep mode tends to be inconsistent to flat out not working.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
"This makes sense"
"People should have expected this."
"How else do you guarantee minimum performance?"


Make a regular m.2 slot, have microsoft provide a "X series certified" program where SSD manufacturers can pay a nominal amount to have their drives tested and so they can put a logo on their box. Have a testing program built into the series X machines that can test all non-certified drives and reject if a drive can't reach minimum performance metrics.

This isn't rocket science, the proprietary connector benefits no one but microsoft as they can control the hardware, and if you don't think there will be a significant markup versus non-microsoft hardware of identical performance you are truly kidding yourself.



That said, the vita comparisons aren't completely apt... For starters, these systems actually come with 1TB of storage where as the base vitas came with none, and the 2000 series a paltry (even for the time) 1GB. You literally had to buy a memory card when vita first launched to even be able to save on cart games, this is obviously not the case here. It's still a stupid practice, but it's hardly as bad as how Sony fucked up and continued to fuck up when they released a revised model.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
"This makes sense"
"People should have expected this."
"How else do you guarantee minimum performance?"


Make a regular m.2 slot, have microsoft provide a "X series certified" program where SSD manufacturers can pay a nominal amount to have their drives tested and so they can put a logo on their box. Have a testing program built into the series X machines that can test all non-certified drives and reject if a drive can't reach minimum performance metrics.

This isn't rocket science, the proprietary connector benefits no one but microsoft as they can control the hardware, and if you don't think there will be a significant markup versus non-microsoft hardware of identical performance you are truly kidding yourself.

Thank you. The fact that people think that proprietary hardware is the only solution is quite ridiculous.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
Its actually rocket science to console owners. They aint going to want to install a nvme SSD like us PC owners.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Difference is theres a huge price disparity and also, you don't need expandable storage. The Vita was pretty much useless without some.

You're kidding right? Have you seen the sizes of 4K assets in games? 1TB won't leave you with much space, and that's before thinking about the increasing file size in general due to new generation + working with more powerful components.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
You're kidding right? Have you seen the sizes of 4K assets in games? 1TB won't leave you with much space, and that's before thinking about the increasing file size in general due to new generation + working with more powerful components.
To their credit, having dedicated hardware compression/decompression will help a lot, especially for textures which tend to make up a lot of asset space. It'll certainly get bad with time, especially with how much of that 1tb is dedicated to the OS, resume, and 100gb of fast streaming cache for games... But it still is no where near as bad as the Vita situation.
 

bmfrosty

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,894
SF Bay Area
Yes, Thunderbolt on an AMD motherboard. But again, you don't even need Thunderbolt at the speeds we're talking about here. USB3 gen2x2 is plenty. An m.2 slot would be ideal, and I don't know what you have against it.
I really think that electrically these will be PCIe, probably borrowing ideas from m.2. Possibly enough that an adapter could be made without any internal logic.

Beyond that if MS repeats what they did with the 360, they'll be firmware locked and you'll need some sort of custom (or cloned) firmware to allow a bog standard m.2 SSD work on a XSX. Or perhaps you'll have to solder a mod chip on to the m.2 or something.

EDIT:

The other thing to note here is that PCIe technically support hot swap, but not every PCIe device supports it. AFAIK, the m.2 standard itself doesn't support it, but it's reasonable to think that it would be mostly small changes to support it. Like putting the power pins first so that they can connect first and putting it in a fancy shell so that it can't be inserted the wrong way, and a few other things. On the bus side, they'd have to have it connect into a set of PCIe lanes (probably from some sort of south bridge) that more or less expects hot swapping.

One of the best things that's been said in this thread is that this has be be swappable by an 8 year old kid.
 

ShinobiBk

One Winged Slayer
Member
Dec 28, 2017
10,121
Lmao watch these things be scarce at launch too though

Scalpers gonna have a field day
 

TAJ

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,446
I had expected the SSDs on these new consoles to basically act like the HDD on the original Xbox.
On that console the data on the HDD was constantly overwritten and always held only the data for the last three games you played.
MS and Sony really need to go full Xbox and allow you store all of your games on external drives and copy to SSD when you want to use them in the fastest and most intuitive way possible.
 
Last edited:

Terbinator

Member
Oct 29, 2017
10,252
You're kidding right? Have you seen the sizes of 4K assets in games? 1TB won't leave you with much space, and that's before thinking about the increasing file size in general due to new generation + working with more powerful components.
Err, no?

If you're stuck for space you still have the option for USB backups, too.
 

krae_man

Master of Balan Wonderworld
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,603
Honestly, I'll probably be fine buying a large external drive and moving things I'm actively playing into my super fast SSD Fridge.
 

bmfrosty

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,894
SF Bay Area
M.2 is literally just a small factor pci-e slot. You can get m.2 to pci-e adapters and hook up graphic cards.
Yes and no. m.2 M-key cards have pins for PCIe x4, SATA, and SMBus. A-key, B-key, and E-key cards have PCIe x2 along with various other pins including things like USB, SATA, audio, and DisplayPort. I suspect that this is going to be a more or less PCIe x4 part with whatever needs to happen to allow it to be hotpluggable. You *should* be able to have an adapter that allows connection to a m.2 M-key SSD, but only MS knows if they're doing something to prevent third party parts.
 

G_Zero

alt account
Banned
Mar 19, 2019
457
One of the best things that's been said in this thread is that this has be be swappable by an 8 year old kid.
The PS4 and PS3 HDDs were relatively complicated to swap, and that seems to have worked out just fine. Just have a small tray you can pull out, a couple of screw holes for securing different size drives, and you're at that level of difficulty.

I agree with everything else you wrote.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,364
Lmao watch these things be scarce at launch too though

Scalpers gonna have a field day

I think people are grossly overestimating what will be the demand for expandable SSD.

Most users will be just fine storing most of their games on an USB HDD/SSD (probably the very same drive they use with their xb1 or ps5) and only using the internal SSD for the games they are actively playing -

This will be a bust for scalpers.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,685
I think people are grossly overestimating what will be the demand for expandable SSD.

Most users will be just fine storing most of their games on an USB HDD/SSD (probably the very same drive they use with their xb1 or ps5) and only using the internal SSD for the games they are actively playing -

This will be a bust for scalpers.

Demand will be low because it's going to be 1/3rd the price of a console
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,364
Demand will be low because it's going to be 1/3rd the price of a console

And because there are serviceable alternatives that are way less expensive. This would still be true even if MS didn't go proprietary.

The demand for extra storage will be met by USB drives- which offer much more storage for less cost.

The only downside will be having to swap games between drives every now and then.
 
Last edited:

Tbm24

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,329
And because their are serviceable alternatives that are way less expensive. This would still be true even if MS didn't go proprietary.

The demand for extra storage will be met by USB drives- which offer much more storage for less cost.

The only downside will be having to swap games between drives every now and then.
Genuinely don't expect to ever actually need more storage than 1TB(assuming games aren't 500gb at some point). I just delete games installed I haven't touched in months to make room.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Err, no?

If you're stuck for space you still have the option for USB backups, too.

USB is a bottleneck. The whole reason they're doing this is to be able to increase speed and emphasize performance. You're not going to get these benefits if you resort to USB-enabled HDDs.

This isn't the last two generations where you can get away with USB-enabled hard drives because games were anywhere from 30-60gbs in size (and then increased as the generation went on).

To their credit, having dedicated hardware compression/decompression will help a lot, especially for textures which tend to make up a lot of asset space. It'll certainly get bad with time, especially with how much of that 1tb is dedicated to the OS, resume, and 100gb of fast streaming cache for games... But it still is no where near as bad as the Vita situation.

How much does compression of 4k assets improve?
Also, I do agree that the Vita comparison is quite ridiculous, given that it wasn't a console that needed to install games no matter the digital or physical format. The only issue is that over time, it seems like you are forced to get one given the spacing constraints that one will eventually run into.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,364
Genuinely don't expect to ever actually need more storage than 1TB(assuming games aren't 500gb at some point). I just delete games installed I haven't touched in months to make room.

With gamepass I would not be surprised to need more than 1TB. I'll probably be close on day one thanks to all the GP games I already have on a USB drive. But I'm not going to be actively playing over 1TB of games. I'm just fine keeping them on the USB drive until it's time to play them.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
For those of you who are complaining who also own PCs. How large is your PC's SSD? How much was it?

Ain't complaining, I have 4 storage drives on my PC now, 1 more on its way and I am intending to get 1 more NVMe SSD (PCIE 4.0) on Black Friday.

1 x 1TB NVMe SSD
1 x 256GB 2.5 Inch SSD
2 x 1TB HDD
 

Terbinator

Member
Oct 29, 2017
10,252
USB is a bottleneck. The whole reason they're doing this is to be able to increase speed and emphasize performance. You're not going to get these benefits if you resort to USB-enabled HDDs.

This isn't the last two generations where you can get away with USB-enabled hard drives because games were anywhere from 30-60gbs in size (and then increased as the generation went on).
I know there's a speed difference, I never said there wasn't and highlighted you can still use the console with the existing storage then swap games over to a HDD.

Completely different to the Vita situation which I replied to initally (and seen you've acknowledged).

I really don't think swapping games over will be a big deal, don't forget, you could always get a cheap SSD for the USB drive to help speed things up and USB 3.2 is fast.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,364
USB is a bottleneck. The whole reason they're doing this is to be able to increase speed and emphasize performance. You're not going to get these benefits if you resort to USB-enabled HDDs.

This isn't the last two generations where you can get away with USB-enabled hard drives because games were anywhere from 30-60gbs in size (and then increased as the generation went on).



How much does compression of 4k assets improve?
Also, I do agree that the Vita comparison is quite ridiculous, given that it wasn't a console that needed to install games no matter the digital or physical format. The only issue is that over time, it seems like you are forced to get one given the spacing constraints that one will eventually run into.

The usb drives wouldn't be used to run the next-gen games. They are used for STORING the games. When you're done playing a game, you move it to the USB drive until you have an urge to revisit it.
 

0VERBYTE

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,555
You will be able to store Xbox Series X games on the drives, but you won't be able to run them without transferring the game to the internal NVMe hard drive or the custom slot drives

This is exactly as i assumed it would work and is perfectly acceptable to me. cant wait!
Exactly. I don't see it better any other way. You have 10tb of external HDD game data sitting close by. It shouldn't be a problem just loading it to the internal drive. Especially at USB 3.2 speeds
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,111
Make a regular m.2 slot, have microsoft provide a "X series certified" program where SSD manufacturers can pay a nominal amount to have their drives tested and so they can put a logo on their box. Have a testing program built into the series X machines that can test all non-certified drives and reject if a drive can't reach minimum performance metrics.

So this would function, but wouldn't avoid the situation where people buy an SSD not realizing that it's not going to work, then get mad when the system rejects it. There would be a host of unlabelled drives that would be compatible, and finding the exact specs that are required isn't totally clear because SSDs are often not well labelled and their capabilities not well advertised unless you look at empirical benchmark results. I want to be clear I'm not opposed to this solution - I would be very fine with it, and acknowledge it would be superior in some ways.

I think the real question we should be asking is if Microsoft is permitting companies to make compatible drives without charging them a licencing fee, or whether they're maintaining full control and only working with Seagate. If we have competition for these drives and MS isn't charging licencing, then costs should come down over time and eventually normalise not too far beyond conventional drives.
 

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,521
"This makes sense"
"People should have expected this."
"How else do you guarantee minimum performance?"


Make a regular m.2 slot, have microsoft provide a "X series certified" program where SSD manufacturers can pay a nominal amount to have their drives tested and so they can put a logo on their box. Have a testing program built into the series X machines that can test all non-certified drives and reject if a drive can't reach minimum performance metrics.

This isn't rocket science, the proprietary connector benefits no one but microsoft as they can control the hardware, and if you don't think there will be a significant markup versus non-microsoft hardware of identical performance you are truly kidding yourself.



That said, the vita comparisons aren't completely apt... For starters, these systems actually come with 1TB of storage where as the base vitas came with none, and the 2000 series a paltry (even for the time) 1GB. You literally had to buy a memory card when vita first launched to even be able to save on cart games, this is obviously not the case here. It's still a stupid practice, but it's hardly as bad as how Sony fucked up and continued to fuck up when they released a revised model.
NVMe drives are sensitive to temperature and will throttle. So even a quick speed test could make it fall short of the required performance. So it's not as easy as you make it sound like. But I do agree that they should went with a standard design. Will see what Sony does with their system. For some reason I feel that their solution will be a hybrid system.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
NVMe drives are sensitive to temperature and will throttle. So even a quick speed test could make it fall short of the required performance. So it's not as easy as you make it sound like. But I do agree that they should went with a standard design. Will see what Sony does with their system. For some reason I feel that their solution will be a hybrid system.
These are just proprietary m.2 with heat sinks, if it's an absolutely necessary thing too have, that would be covered by the theoretical certification process.
So this would function, but wouldn't avoid the situation where people buy an SSD not realizing that it's not going to work, then get mad when the system rejects it.
That's what the certification would be for. Any company could make a drive and then get a "series X approved" sticker for their box, and be put on an official compatibility list.

This is no different than flash cards that have their rated speed/class on their box.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,111
This is no different than flash cards that have their rated speed/class on their box.

It's different insofar as putting a slow SD card into your switch is no problem you just have slightly worse loading times. If you put a slow NVME drive into your next gen console it may reject outright, and although there would be labelled certified ones, it's not immediately clear necessarily to people that this is something they need to watch out for.

I would probably compare it to something like the USB-C standard confusion where there are many advantages to having it all on one port, but also confusion created by having so many different levels of cable that may not do what you need it to do if you buy the wrong one. Some are clearly labelled as, say, TB3 compatible, while others are not, and it can be a bit of a minefield. Once again, this is not some reason you could never go this route - I think it would be fine if they did overall, just that I conceptually their reasoning here and think there are some upsides to it along with the obvious downside of increased pricing.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
The usb drives wouldn't be used to run the next-gen games. They are used for STORING the games. When you're done playing a game, you move it to the USB drive until you have an urge to revisit it.

Except that's not how it works at all. The old drives would not be used to store anything other than previous gen games according to MS.

"You can continue to use your existing USB 3.1+ external hard drives on Xbox Series X and you can run Xbox One, 360 and OG Xbox games directly from the external USB HDD," explains a Microsoft spokesperson. "Games optimized for Xbox Series X and the Velocity Architecture need to be run from the internal SSD or the Expandable Storage Drive."

Source: https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/16/...sion-cards-removable-storage-support-features
 

Terbinator

Member
Oct 29, 2017
10,252
Except that's not how it works at all. The old drives would not be used to store anything other than previous gen games according to MS.

"You can continue to use your existing USB 3.1+ external hard drives on Xbox Series X and you can run Xbox One, 360 and OG Xbox games directly from the external USB HDD," explains a Microsoft spokesperson. "Games optimized for Xbox Series X and the Velocity Architecture need to be run from the internal SSD or the Expandable Storage Drive."

Source: https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/16/...sion-cards-removable-storage-support-features
What you've quoted literally backs up what he says lol.
 

asmith906

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,404
Depending on price I might do like I did with vita and just get one at launch so I dont have to worry about juggling games. If I want to play something I dont want to wait days to download and update before I can finally play.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,970
Except that's not how it works at all. The old drives would not be used to store anything other than previous gen games according to MS.

"You can continue to use your existing USB 3.1+ external hard drives on Xbox Series X and you can run Xbox One, 360 and OG Xbox games directly from the external USB HDD," explains a Microsoft spokesperson. "Games optimized for Xbox Series X and the Velocity Architecture need to be run from the internal SSD or the Expandable Storage Drive."

Source: https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/16/...sion-cards-removable-storage-support-features
You can store Xbox Series X games on USB hard drives. You just can't run them from there.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,970
He clearly says "storing the games" which makes absolutely no sense if the purpose is to run them. Especially with how much transferring you'd need to do if that's even the case.
PC gamers do it all the time. The point is to be able to download games once onto your (presumably much larger) USB hard drive, and copy them onto your (smaller but much faster) gaming drive when you intend to play them, without having to redownload them.

Right now I've got a 500gb SSD in my PC. I can store a few games on there, depending on their sizes but I have a couple of particularly large ones installed right now (like RDR2, GTA V, and ARMA 3 + mods). When I'm done with those, I don't have to download the other games I have on my PC that I intend to play (like Prey, Civ, XCOM, PUBG, etc) because I already have them downloaded onto my hard drive. I can just make room (by backing up a game like RDR2 or GTA V onto my hard drive for another day) and then transfer the games I want to play over.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,842
Except that's not how it works at all. The old drives would not be used to store anything other than previous gen games according to MS.

"You can continue to use your existing USB 3.1+ external hard drives on Xbox Series X and you can run Xbox One, 360 and OG Xbox games directly from the external USB HDD," explains a Microsoft spokesperson. "Games optimized for Xbox Series X and the Velocity Architecture need to be run from the internal SSD or the Expandable Storage Drive."

Source: https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/16/...sion-cards-removable-storage-support-features

Did you not read the contents of your own post? It says the opposite of what you're saying.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,973
As a non-tech guy, proprietary storage is a headache but it seems reasonable considering the custom nature. I'll reserve judgment until we know price and whether the proprietary storage is really a necessity or not (I assume it is).
 

Carbon

Deploying the stealth Cruise Missile
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,862
it might not be that expensive if it doesn't have the controller on board the card.

speaking of which... how much does an SSD controller typically cost?
I can't see it being lower than $200. Fast 1TB NVME SSDs with good TLC flash are around $150-200 right now. That is for market pricing on a maturing standard. This will be a single vendor (at launch) selling a proprietary stick of memory with a built-in heat spreader (which most NVMEs don't have). I'm sure without a controller it would be a little cheaper, but you still need a healthy amount of the more expensive SLC cache which you can't really skimp on if you want those throughput speeds they're touting. And since it's not essential for console function, just a "nice to have" add-on, they probably won't make a ton of these, which will only drive the cost up further.
 

Megatron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,445
Do we know for sure if we can play xbox one and 360 games off the usb hard drive? The DF video seemed to say you can but then they almost seemed to walk it back.

edit - just saw a couple posts above me. Looks like you can.
 

Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
Sure there is, thunderbolt.
Maybe it has changed during last month, but previously Intel didn't licensed TB for anything else than an Intel architecture.
Yes and no. m.2 M-key cards have pins for PCIe x4, SATA, and SMBus. A-key, B-key, and E-key cards have PCIe x2 along with various other pins including things like USB, SATA, audio, and DisplayPort. I suspect that this is going to be a more or less PCIe x4 part with whatever needs to happen to allow it to be hotpluggable. You *should* be able to have an adapter that allows connection to a m.2 M-key SSD, but only MS knows if they're doing something to prevent third party parts.
Yup "NVME" names a controller and "PCIE 4" a bus : that says nothing about card specs. That thing doesn't look like full drive (where the controller is embedded) but more just a PCB with flash cells.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,243
He clearly says "storing the games" which makes absolutely no sense if the purpose is to run them. Especially with how much transferring you'd need to do if that's even the case.

You're using the USB drive as cold storage.

Whatever you're actively playing is on the fast drive. You buy something new, you want to play it, so you take something off the drive and move it to the USB. You can't run the game from there, but the system can keep those installs patched and ready to go. If you want to play it again, you don't have to redownload it or reinstall from disc and then apply patches, just shift it back on the fast drive.