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SlickShoes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,770
I do contract work in a different industry, I like my job too but it's a US company and the contract is abysmal, it basically states that I can be fired at any moment for no reason or my contract could just stop at any time, no min or max hours, no holidays. I took the job because it keeps my CV/Resume relevant to a specific industry and means I am at least working, but man it was depressing reading through that contract.
 

Assenzio

Alt account
Banned
Mar 18, 2019
775
I bet you thought this sounded like a great zinger of a point. Instead, it's another attempt at normalizing and trying to get people to accept awful behavior and subhuman working conditions in an industry that needs a reboot. Should we stop wearing all shoes, because Nike uses children to make theirs?

I hope we can get a list going of companies that utilize immoral and evil working conditions. I'll boycott every single one of their games. Even if it means I quit the hobby until there's change. It's something I'm totally willing to give up, because it's just useless entertainment at the end of the day and these are REAL people suffering for it.

I honestly wanted to pick this game up and now I intend on never touching it even on sale. Cringe if you want, but it's my beliefs and my wallet.
Tha was not his post at all. People here are hipocrites, they wait until some article releases to say "nope, I won't buy it" when we fucking knew for years that this happens in almost every single AAA studio in the west and for sure every single one in Japan.

Just like the meToo scandal people know, but nobody fucking does a damn thing about until an article puts it black on white.

If your shitty solution to this issue is not to buy a game, then stop buying games altogether, almost every single one of them are made in the same way.

There are more elegant and effective solutions to this rather than reying to get some attention by writing "I am not buying this" in a forum

Fucking pathetic
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,176
UK
"Some of those Fatality sequences you love are from temp workers," revealed one source. "NetherRealm will send out an email early in production to get people to submit ideas for fatalities. Of course, they invite the temp workers because they can just give away an awesome idea without having to pay them extra for it. One person in QA made storyboards for their suggested fatality sequence. Their idea made it in, but they never got that full-time position they were chasing."​

That's so exploitative for the signature element of this franchise.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
I think this is the big take-away.

NRS, CD Projekt RED, Riot, Blizzard, Nintendo, Square Enix, Ubisoft, Gearbox... this is EVERYWHERE.

This isn't a thing happening in the industry. This IS the industry.

You're going to need some receipts on Nintendo as there's no information against them. In fact, it's basically positives from ex-employees that worked into Nintendo per se.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
"Some of those Fatality sequences you love are from temp workers," revealed one source. "NetherRealm will send out an email early in production to get people to submit ideas for fatalities. Of course, they invite the temp workers because they can just give away an awesome idea without having to pay them extra for it. One person in QA made storyboards for their suggested fatality sequence. Their idea made it in, but they never got that full-time position they were chasing."​

That's so exploitative for the signature element of this franchise.
Just in case you didn't already feel disgust, the concepts and story boards for fatalities are unlockable collectibles. So that particular artist's storyboards are probably directly included in the finished product.
 

Assenzio

Alt account
Banned
Mar 18, 2019
775
You're going to need some receipts on Nintendo as there's no information against them. In fact, it's basically positives from ex-employees that worked into Nintendo per se.
This attitutude of fanboyism "my company does not do that" is disgunting.

We have twitts of Kamiya sleeping in his office for 4 moths to deliver W101. That is one exemple.
 

Radeo

Banned
Apr 26, 2019
1,305
Crunch sucks but it's hardly new and it's hardly exclusive to the games industry

My problem is that games journalists were one of the best positioned to actually talk about this. They knew about it for YEARS but they've only just started bringing attention to it for clicks
 
Nov 18, 2017
1,273
Wow, all i can say to ed boon is...
You're going to need some receipts on Nintendo as there's no information against them. In fact, it's basically positives from ex-employees that worked into Nintendo per se.

Mate, i would consider myself a pretty big Nintendo fan but how can you say shit like that knowing full well Sakurai showed up to work with a freaking IV drip plugged into his wrist.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
This attitutude of fanboyism "my company does not do that" is disgunting.

We have twitts of Kamiya sleeping in his office for 4 moths to deliver W101. That is one exemple.

Are you ok, honey? I'm not going to point out for companies that have nothing about them. And considering Nintendo very position as a Kyoto company, I'm going to believe this even less..

And this is literally Platinum Games. Which isn't Nintendo. If you want to talk about Nintendo, talk about Nintendo EPD employees as it's an internal division.
 

Lucifonz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,132
United Kingdom
Man the talk over the leaks sounds horrendous. As someone with a marketing background reading that seems insane - leaks are part of modern culture and whilst ideally they should be minimised, if they do occur you should simply try to embrace them and adapt. RAGE 2 is the perfect example of this. Terrible to read of such an intimidating and condescending approach to handling it.

Love MK11 but this makes me sad :( Hope things change.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Wow, all i can say to ed boon is...


Mate, i would consider myself a pretty big Nintendo fan but how can you say shit like that knowing full well Sakurai showed up to work with a freaking IV drip plugged into his wrist.

You're a big Nintendo fan but don't know that Sakurai has his own company called Sora, never was a Nintendo employee and is a freelancer for over 10 years? His hours are his own, much like his decisions and how he chose to work. He sets his own things while working with Bandai Namco Studios, much like Ed Boon does here on Netherealm.

"I'm a freelancer, so I don't have any strict rules on my time. As long as I can complete the game, I could show up to the office once per week and I think it'd be within the realm of forgiveness. But instead I make sure I come to work every day and write proper daily reports and such. I'm always working, but there's a lot of things that keep me in good spirits!"

https://www.gameinformer.com/2019/0...iro-sakurai-worked-with-an-iv-drip-while-sick
 

Assenzio

Alt account
Banned
Mar 18, 2019
775
Are you ok, honey? I'm not going to point out for companies that have nothing about them. And considering Nintendo very position as a Kyoto company, I'm going to believe this even less..

And this is literally Platinum Games. Which isn't Nintendo. If you want to talk about Nintendo, talk about Nintendo EPD employees as it's an internal division.
Right, so crunching for the development of a Nintendo exclusive is not on Nintendo.

Got'cha fam, carry on

People talking good about a company does not mean shit. If you think this does not happen in Nintendo you are naive at best
 

MadMod

Member
Dec 4, 2017
2,733
Crunch sucks but it's hardly new and it's hardly exclusive to the games industry

My problem is that games journalists were one of the best positioned to actually talk about this. They knew about it for YEARS but they've only just started bringing attention to it for clicks

I get what you're saying. But the more exposure there is the better. Maybe eventually it will lead to change. If its getting clicks now, thats great, as people are now interested in the stories. Better late than never i guess is what I'm saying. All the companies need to be exposed and the better companies need to be supported. Like Dead Cells developer (as said previously in this thread) Motion Twin.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Right, so crunching for the development of a Nintendo exclusive is not on Nintendo.

Got'cha fam, carry on

People talking good about a company does not mean shit. If you think this does not happen in Nintendo you are naive at best

Of course it's not. None of those are Nintendo employees. It's like saying that SIE is responsible for Naughty Dog or Quantic Dream problems when they aren't. Those are problems of the own companies.

And like I said, I won't say anything about companies if there's nothing about them. Which with Nintendo, there's only positives. You can expect me to talk about Naughty Dog, CDPR, Bioware and whoever be, even if I like the games.
 

Assenzio

Alt account
Banned
Mar 18, 2019
775
Of course it's not. None of those are Nintendo employees. It's like saying that SIE is responsible for Naughty Dog or Quantic Dream problems when they aren't. Those are problems of the own companies.
Crunch is there when you risk to miss the deadline. If third parties developing a game are crunching that means that Nintendo is uncompromising with the launch.

Plus third parties exclusive are never developed with no assistance from Sony, MS or Nintendo. So they know that it is happening.
 
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Radeo

Banned
Apr 26, 2019
1,305
I get what you're saying. But the more exposure there is the better. Maybe eventually it will lead to change. If its getting clicks now, thats great, as people are now interested in the stories. Better late than never i guess is what I'm saying. All the companies need to be exposed and the better companies need to be supported. Like Dead Cells developer (as said previously in this thread) Motion Twin.

Yeah, regardless of intent, any attention is good. It just feels really hollow coming from these publications.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Crunch is there when you risk to miss the deadline. If third parties developing a game are crunching that means that Nintendo is uncompromising with the launch.

Plus third parties exclusive are never developed with no assistance for Sony, MS or Nintendo. So they know that it is happening.

There's no such a thing of third party exclusive, it's a first party release. The only third party there is the company working on the title.

And no, that don't mean anything about the publisher but on the producer and head of the studio itself that are behind the deadline of a product and planned it badly. It's not different than what Ed Boon is doing here or how any studio does in the world with their projects when in that situation.

Sony owns Naughty Dog. They certainly have the power to step in and end crunch if they want to.

Of course. But that don't change that it's not happening on SIE per se. Anyway, it's a bad comparison as SIE unlike japanese companies don't have internal development divisions but studios around the world which are their own companies.
 

Dragoon

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
11,231
For context, the minimum wage in Chicago is currently $12 an hour, but only after a minimum wage hike that took effect on July 2018. Multiple sources also told USG that NetherRealm would offer $11 per hour wages for the art team.
Oh my God, fuck this bullshit. This is legitimately disgusting, from a major AAA studio no less, and in fucking Chicago of all places.
 
Nov 18, 2017
1,273
You're a big Nintendo fan but don't know that Sakurai has his own company called Sora, never was a Nintendo employee and is a freelancer for over 10 years? His hours are his own, much like his decisions and how he chose to work. He sets his own things while working with Bandai Namco Studios, much like Ed Boon does here on Netherealm.

"I'm a freelancer, so I don't have any strict rules on my time. As long as I can complete the game, I could show up to the office once per week and I think it'd be within the realm of forgiveness. But instead I make sure I come to work every day and write proper daily reports and such. I'm always working, but there's a lot of things that keep me in good spirits!"

https://www.gameinformer.com/2019/0...iro-sakurai-worked-with-an-iv-drip-while-sick

No I knew all of that but I still don't see it as a justification for that behaviour. At the end of the day Nintendo are still the ones paying his bills and it's not like sakurai over working himself is exclusive to his time at Sora he did while at Hal & Nintendo working on every smash Bros game.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
No I knew all of that but I still don't see it as a justification for that behaviour. At the end of the day Nintendo are still the ones paying his bills and it's not like sakurai over working himself is exclusive to his time at Sora he did while at Hal & Nintendo working on every smash Bros game.

This is literally Sakurai doing this because he's a workaholic. I don't even know how in this case you can think that Nintendo is at fault for a director that stipulate his own hours and owns his own company, while he works and is the boss at Bandai Namco. He even admit that on the very quote I showed to you.
 
Nov 18, 2017
1,273
This is literally Sakurai doing this because he's a workaholic. I don't even know how in this case you can think that Nintendo is at fault for a director that stipulate his own hours and owns his own company, while he works and is the boss at Bandai Namco. He even admit that on the very quote I showed to you.

It's Nintendo's project, sure they hired Sora & Namco Bandai to develop it, but ultimately the say is theirs. People who overwork themselves like that are no longer at their most productive. What's it gonna take before someone steps in and saves this man from working himself into an early grave? I'm sure Nintendo would prefer Mr Sakurai to y'know still be alive and fit enough to continue the smash series for as long as he's willing, the way hes going about it now who knows how much longer he shall be around.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
It's Nintendo's project, sure they hired Sora & Namco Bandai to develop it, but ultimately the say is theirs. People who overwork themselves like that are no longer at their most productive. What's it gonna take before someone steps in and saves this man from working himself into an early grave? I'm sure Nintendo would prefer Mr Sakurai to y'know still be alive and fit enough to continue the smash series for as long as he's willing, the way hes going about it now who knows how much longer he shall be around.

And that's the difference. If Sakurai worked at Nintendo EPD, he would be a responsibility of them. As it is now or even at Hal, he's respectively his own and Hal responsibility. Of course, the best action would be for Nintendo to step up and talk to him about it but, Sakurai is a freelancer with no relation with the company outside of being contracted to direct a game. There's no real responsibility there, even more when the man himself stipulate his hours and even goes to work while sick, which is insane and unhealthy but on him because Nintendo isn't there ordering Sakurai to do those things, which would be completely different if he was working at Nintendo and he had to do those things.
 

rawhide

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,003
This attitutude of fanboyism "my company does not do that" is disgunting.

We have twitts of Kamiya sleeping in his office for 4 moths to deliver W101. That is one exemple.

By most accounts, Kamiya took it upon to completely redo the combat system for W101 four months from launch and he went behind the producers' backs to do it--Nintendo and the Platinum producer both said that if he'd just argued his case like a big boy they could have delayed the game, but he refused to budge from the original schedule due to some weird sense of shame about not coming up with better ideas earlier in production. I'm sure that unhealthy attitude towards work is something that's been beaten into him rather than a personality quirk but I don't think it necessarily indicates anything about Nintendo, he's talked about doing the same shit with Okami and other games.
 
Nov 18, 2017
1,273
And that's the difference. If Sakurai worked at Nintendo EPD, he would be a responsibility of them. As it is now or even at Hal, he's respectively his own and Hal responsibility. Of course, the best action would be for Nintendo to step up and talk to him about it but, Sakurai is a freelancer with no relation with the company outside of being contracted to direct a game. There's no real responsibility there, even more when the man himself stipulate his hours and even goes to work while sick, which is insane and unhealthy but on him because Nintendo isn't there ordering Sakurai to do those things, which would be completely different if he was working at Nintendo and he had to do those things.

So following this logic, the contractor at Netherrealm who died at his desk shipping Injustice 2 'did it to himself?'

Just because someone is a 'willing' participant in their own demise doesnt make them the sole person responsible. If you allow anyone on your payroll to literally work themselves to death you are complicit & profiting from their death.

But naah man lets just keep sucking Nintendos dick, Smash Bros is a great game fuck Sakurai's health what do i care, the game came out already.
 

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,237
Crunch is terrible and faced similar at School creating a game for my final project

But is boycotting a purchase a good idea if someone nearly killed themselves working on?

The best solution is to raise these types of abuse, avoid these studios/publishers and make them change on the inside. Connect with your peers from school and start your own independent studio.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Crunch is terrible and faced similar at School creating a game for my final project

But is boycotting a purchase a good idea if someone nearly killed themselves working on?

The best solution is to raise these types of abuse, avoid these studios/publishers and make them change on the inside. Connect with your peers from school and start your own independent studio.

Yes, it is a very good idea. I'm not really interesting in supporting a product that was made through exploitation, abuse, and threats.

Also has a TERF so that's like, so much extra lol.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,007
Activision didn't earn record profits. Learn the difference between profit and revenue, or you'll just sound ignorant.
It was record revenue, record EPS, record operating income, record net income. You knew exactly what everyone meant and your drive-by post to insult people changes nothing about the discussion related to it.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Game development is high stakes, but sometimes the people at the top are just the worst kinds of assholes you knew from school but with the means and the power to do what they want. This is the sort of story that kills my goodwill about AAA. It's not about passion and creation, it's about money and it's about climbing ladders. It's like a lodge.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,007
You're going to need some receipts on Nintendo as there's no information against them. In fact, it's basically positives from ex-employees that worked into Nintendo per se.
This was Retro Studios.

"It was probably one of the worst experiences I've ever had," one developer on the project recalls. "We had a rough time with development in general. But we had an enforced almost year's worth of overtime. I think it was nine to 10 months of over time of at least minimum 12-hour days. I worked 48 hours straight on that project without sleeping. It was the worst."

https://www.polygon.com/2018/5/29/17386066/the-rocky-story-of-retro-studios-before-metroid-prime

On Wikipedia: "During the final nine months of Metroid Prime's development, Retro's staff worked 80- to 100-hour weeks to reach their final milestone."

Here's an interview with a staff member who worked on Star Fox in Kyoto. If you think they were leaving at 6pm the times they weren't pulling all-nighters then I have a bridge to sell you.

"During Star Fox we only did a few late nighters, and when I say late night, I mean working until the wee hours of the morning preparing a build for the lot check at Uji or something like that. I enjoyed them thoroughly as that kind of thing works as a catalyst to bond the team and the game was exciting to work on, I don't recommend them often but every once in a while they can be fun like staying out past your bedtime when you were a kid.

Anyway.. on one of those nights Miyamoto was also there with us tuning last minute stuff and playing through the game and we all decided we needed some snacks and sustenance so at about 3am we all trudged out into the wintry night: Eguchi, Miyamoto, Yamada, Imamura, Watanabe and all, to trek to the nearest convenience store which I think was a Lawson's, and on the way Miyamoto was chatting about his student days and how he used to do all nighters to cram before tests and student exhibitions. Then his eyes suddenly lit up."

https://www.gonintendo.com/stories/...-back-on-the-all-nighters-programming-starfox

About Super Mario 64:

"In those days, Miyamoto would come to us at 11 PM, after he finished all of his board-member work, and say, "It's Mario time." At that point, we'd start a planning meeting that would run until 2 AM. At that point, Miyamoto would go home, leaving us with the words, "You should return home soon, for your health." Over the next two or three hours, we'd write the game design documents and summarize the instructions for our artists and programmers.


It was the craziest crunch time that I've ever experienced in my development career. But if the God of Games was working so much, could we give up? Miyamoto had incredible stamina."

https://gonintendo.com/stories/2774...-dev-on-department-pressures-miyamoto-s-pikmi
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,107
So following this logic, the contractor at Netherrealm who died at his desk shipping Injustice 2 'did it to himself?'

Just because someone is a 'willing' participant in their own demise doesnt make them the sole person responsible. If you allow anyone on your payroll to literally work themselves to death you are complicit & profiting from their death.

But naah man lets just keep sucking Nintendos dick, Smash Bros is a great game fuck Sakurai's health what do i care, the game came out already.
We have reports on Nintendo's employment environment that Nintendo employees average less than eight hours a day and that it brings in additional staff instead of making its employees work longer hours during crunch.

Sakurai is literally his own boss. People contracted to Netherrealm are having their hours and workload set by Netherrealm. Sakurai 8s setting his own and you're deliberately ignoring the man's own words to set a narrative that simply does not conform to reality.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
I mean, it seems pretty clear to me that video game studios are kind of like film studios in that most projects employ independent contractors and freelancers. This is NORMAL for the entertainment industry.

And that is okay.

What is NOT okay is that these hard working contractors have no unions. The industry needs to unionize and use the Hollywood model as their template. Until they do, they will continue to be exploited this way. And it's not fair.

They shouldn't expect employment. They should instead accept the model they're in and try to improve upon it by looking at the closest industry where it was able to happen.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
Was reading it earlier, and it's fucking disgusting. Shit has got to change, I hope we're not seeing these sort of stories still in five years, but I worry we will.
Of course we will still see it. Despite this players still buy the games and that is all these companies care about. It works, so keep doing it.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,007
We have reports on Nintendo's employment environment that Nintendo employees average less than eight hours a day and that it brings in additional staff instead of making its employees work longer hours during crunch.

Sakurai is literally his own boss. People contracted to Netherrealm are having their hours and workload set by Netherrealm. Sakurai 8s setting his own and you're deliberately ignoring the man's own words to set a narrative that simply does not conform to reality.
That's a recruitment page and a marketing exec talking. Maybe they have gotten better since the reports from Nintendo devs posted earlier about their insane crunch. OTOH the common thread among all those stories was Miyamoto, who is still there and in a more senior position now.
 

GrayFoxPL

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,280
I hope more stories like this come out to light because that shit is literally everywhere. Every large company is an abusive shithole.
 

Delriach

Combat Designer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
931
Chicago
I hope more stories like this come out to light because that shit is literally everywhere. Every large company is an abusive shithole.

Funny you say that. A new article just went up. And it includes comments from multiple current employees.

Seems like not much has changed since I stopped working there.

 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,187
Oh my God, fuck this bullshit. This is legitimately disgusting, from a major AAA studio no less, and in fucking Chicago of all places.

They still agreed to the contract. Which either means they're the only game in town (which may be likely), or that everyone else has similar salary structures for contractors and this is par for the course.
 

RoninChaos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,338
I hope this is enough for some of you not to fucking give this studio money. Fuck them, and fuck treating people this way.
 

AcridMeat

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,667
Anyone who reacts in any way other than disgust at how that leak was handled needs to seriously re-evaluate themselves.
They still agreed to the contract. Which either means they're the only game in town (which may be likely), or that everyone else has similar salary structures for contractors and this is par for the course.
The game industry is fueled by the exploitation of the passion of its workforce, not by perks/good pay structure. Get out of here with this BS.
 

PlzUninstall

Member
Oct 30, 2017
563
I hope this is enough for some of you not to fucking give this studio money. Fuck them, and fuck treating people this way.
That doesn't help. Bad reviews and lacklustre sales will just force layoffs and end more contracts.

We need to be loud and educate our friends/family/peers on the situation so we can support devs in their attempts to unionize.

We should also shout about devs who are transparent and actively avoid things like crunch,
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,187
Anyone who reacts in any way other than disgust at how that leak was handled needs to seriously re-evaluate themselves.
The game industry is fueled by the exploitation of the passion of its workforce, not by perks/good pay structure. Get out of here with this BS.

So what I'm saying is that this means the pay structure everyone is scoffing at here is more the norm than it is an aberration. I'm not sure how that's BS. I wasn't dismissing it, but be up in arms at the industry as a whole.
 

RoninChaos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,338
That doesn't help. Bad reviews and lacklustre sales will just force layoffs and end more contracts.

We need to be loud and educate our friends/family/peers on the situation so we can support devs in their attempts to unionize.

We should also shout about devs who are transparent and actively avoid things like crunch,
Fuck that. These contracts are HORRID in the first place. These temps are getting paid minimum wage, meanwhile people like the head of their studio (who makes 6 figures) scream on a bunch of minimum wage works because someone from NetherRealm happened to tell the truth about the way the studio was run.

Look at what the article said. How many times do we have to see this story and actually do something, like not reward this behavior with money? You won't get a fundamental change from a company like NetherRealm abusing it's employees until you take away their money AND slather them in bad publicity. If NetherRealms sell a hojillion copies of MKXI, they will double down on this behavior, not fix it because they were financially rewarded for their behavior. The only way to get any company to pay attention and treat it's workers better is to hit their bottom line. Unionizing is a long term solution. Continuing to prop these companies up and hand waiving their actions with excuses like "yeah, well, I don't want that temp to lose his job" DOES NOT FIX THIS SITUATION.

A Union won't fix this situation because no temp workers would get Union Benefits. Nether Realm has tons of contractors specifically so they can exploit them and pay them as little as possible. This is by design. Period.
 
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