USA State Department releases cable that helped spread claims coronavirus emerged from Chinese lab

SilentPanda · Jul 19, 2020

The State Department has released a 2018 diplomatic cable noting that the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) had "a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory."

Contents of the 2-year-old cable, which were leaked earlier this year, provided fodder for unproven allegations from members of the Trump administration and Congress that the coronavirus may have escaped from the lab at the epicenter of the virus.

The January 2018 cable, obtained by the Washington Post after a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, noted that ties between the WIV and the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston could help alleviate the shortage and that, reportedly, the US-based institution was training technicians to work at the WIV.

A second cable about the WIV from April 2018 cited a French official who said that "French experts have provided guidance and biosafety training to the lab, which will continue."

While both Pompeo and President Donald Trump earlier this year claimed that they had seen evidence linking the outbreak to a Wuhan lab, assessments by scientists and those circulated among US intelligence-sharing allies have posited that it is "highly unlikely" the virus originated in a lab.

State Department releases cable that helped spread claims coronavirus emerged from Chinese lab

The State Department has released a 2018 diplomatic cable noting that the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) had "a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory."

www.cnn.com

Jonnax · Jul 19, 2020

O well?
Like what's Trump's game here. Is doesn't make sense.

Well I guess his supporters are fucking stupid.

Like saying that it's China's fault for the virus.

Still doesn't change that the US government fucked up.

Deleted member 24907 · Jul 19, 2020

Yes, Donny, it's CHYNA's fault that you didn't do shit about the virus when you should have and to this day continue to shit the bed on handling the issue.

purplemonkey111 · Jul 19, 2020

Their literally doing everything except try to contain, and fight the pandemic.

boris_feinbrand · Jul 19, 2020

I heard that the plague raged in Europe for some time. Might still be there, who knows... Maybe that marmot got infected there. I'm just asking the uncomfortable questions.

I think I'm going to start a new conspiracy Twitter. Support me on Paterson for the truth to be heard.

Freedom and free thoughts.. or something

Devil · Jul 19, 2020

I don't know why both couldn't be true: The US government fucked up big time at containing the virus AND the lab might have played its part in letting it loose. Of course Trump is going to use any tiny scrap of 'evidence' to shift the blame, but that alone should'nt let you rule out the possibility that the virus might have something to do with the lab. We can be pretty certain already that the chinese government tried to downplay the outbreak early on for their own advantage and thereby contributed to the worldwide spread, so this isn't farfetched. Just because Trump loves this info we shouldn't act like it's not there.

SilentPanda · Jul 19, 2020

Devil said:
I don't know why both couldn't be true: The US government fucked up big time at containing the virus AND the lab might have played its part in letting it loose. Of course Trump is going to use any tiny scrap of 'evidence' to shift the blame, but that alone should'nt let you rule out the possibility that the virus might have something to do with the lab. We can be pretty certain already that the chinese government tried to downplay the outbreak early on for their own advantage and thereby contributed to the worldwide spread, so this isn't farfetched. Just because Trump loves this info we shouldn't act like it's not there.

assessments by scientists and those circulated among US intelligence-sharing allies have posited that it is "highly unlikely" the virus originated in a lab.

An analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered.

COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin

An analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered.

www.sciencedaily.com

"Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus," they write in the journal article.

The coronavirus was not engineered in a lab. Here's how we know.

The persistent myth can be put to bed.

www.livescience.com

Ayato_Kanzaki · Jul 19, 2020

Jonnax said:
O well?
Like what's Trump's game here. Is doesn't make sense.

Well I guess his supporters are fucking stupid.

Like saying that it's China's fault for the virus.

Still doesn't change that the US government fucked up.

All Trump know how to do is deflect the blame. He's trying to provide a target, any target, other than him for the anger generated by his incompetence. And it will owrk with his pathetic base.

The Chosen One · Jul 19, 2020

These type of stories might have gotten more traction if the Trump administration actually had a competent response to the coronavirus. But with a new surge on top of a plateau, there is no question the WH seriously f*cked up the handling of this pandemic regardless of its origin story.

People aren't going to blame China for Trump wanting to inject bleach into citizens and slow down testing during the height of infections.

Devil · Jul 19, 2020

SilentPanda said:
assessments by scientists and those circulated among US intelligence-sharing allies have posited that it is "highly unlikely" the virus originated in a lab.

An analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered.

COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin

An analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered.

www.sciencedaily.com

"Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus," they write in the journal article.

The coronavirus was not engineered in a lab. Here's how we know.

The persistent myth can be put to bed.

www.livescience.com

I have read that. Originating and breaking loose from are two different things though. I'm not suggesting Covid-19 was artificially produced. Also, this is based on very early assessment with little to no insight into the lab.

Kernel · Jul 19, 2020

Ayato_Kanzaki said:
All Trump know how to do is deflect the blame. He's trying to provide a target, any target, other than him for the anger generated by his incompetence. And it will owrk with his pathetic base.

I doubt it will work as well as before. People are still dying out there.

He told people to inject bleach, I think he suffered a big drop after that and stopped the press conferences. He still looks utterly incompetent.

He's trying to change the channel as that's all he knows how to do.

He has to gaslight and motivate his entire base that protesters and Democrats are a bigger threat than a global pandemic he screwed up on.

Contraband · Jul 19, 2020

Devil said:
I have read that. Originating and breaking loose from are two different things though. I'm not suggesting Covid-19 was artificially produced. Also, this is based on very early assessment with little to no insight into the lab.

Gets provided with multiple pieces of evidence from accredited individuals & sources. Immediately tries to spin & gaslight. Good shit.

Never change; ERA.

deimosmasque · Jul 19, 2020

purplemonkey111 said:
Their literally doing everything except try to contain, and fight the pandemic.

*ding* *ding* *ding*

Johnny tell them what they've won.

Malleymal · Jul 19, 2020

Man....... if trump put 1/10th of the effort that he put into blaming CHYNA, into actually trying to help the American public, we would be in a better place.

Devil · Jul 19, 2020

Chris Contra said:
Gets provided with multiple pieces of evidence from accredited individuals & sources. Immediately tries to spin & gaslight. Good shit.

Never change; ERA.

Did you read something different than I wrote? What the fuck is wrong with you to immediately throw around buzzwords to end any discussion? If you think I'm a Trumper or like to defend him just because of what I said, then sincerely fuck yourself. Seriously, what is wrong with some of you? Stop putting people in boxes you're comfortable with, I'm not fitting in yours.

Do you only believe intelligence whenever it fits your needs but put it off as lies when it fits someone elses? All I'm saying I wouldn't put it beyond the chinese government to cover up anything about that lab. I have read the assessment in OP before posting, I have read even more weeks ago, I was not presented new information and I meant what I said in my second post already in my first. The assessments right now are early and based on nobody actually knowing a lot, except that it probably wasn't engineered, which I already knew and never suggested. Pompeo and Trump parading this stuff around as if it were a fact is wrong, I said as much and more. Stop interpreting the worst you can think of about me.

Seriously, never change Era, I agree. Keep attacking people for the most inoffensive stuff just because you think there is some hidden motive behind it.

Contraband · Jul 19, 2020

Devil said:
Did you read something different than I wrote? What the fuck is wrong with you to immediately throw around buzzwords to end any discussion? If you think I'm a Trumper or like to defend him just because of what I said, then sincerely fuck yourself. Seriously, what is wrong with some of you? Stop putting people in boxes you're comfortable with, I'm not fitting in yours.

Do you only believe intelligence whenever it fits your needs but put it off as lies when it fits someone elses? All I'm saying I wouldn't put it beyond the chinese government to cover up anything about that lab. I have read the assessment in OP before posting, I have read even more weeks ago, I was not presented new information and I meant what I said in my second post already in my first. The assessments right now are early and based on nobody actually knowing a lot, except that it probably wasn't engineered, which I already knew and never suggested. Pompeo and Trump parading this stuff around as if it were a fact is wrong, I said as much and more. Stop interpreting the worst you can think of about me.

Seriously, never change Era, I agree. Keep attacking people for the most inoffensive stuff just because you think there is some hidden motive behind it.

You seem really upset that an individual was able to counter your entire point with a few accredited links and your response was equivalent to POTUS just "going with my gut!" So yes the assessments are early but guess what; that's all we have right now. You have absolutely zero credible sources that say the Chinese government covered up anything. You have a raving lunatic & his inept admin trying to find any scapegoat possible. It actually comes off as really xenophobic since again; you lack any credible evidence or research besides Beholding a Pale White Horse.

Essentially; you always lead with the data you have not the data you wish you had.

Calm down; you don't want to box with God your arms aren't long enough. Take a breather; log off & relax.

Masterz1337 · Jul 19, 2020

Seems like there is a lot of confusion when people hear "it came from the lab"

While there is no evidence that it was artificially produced and more evidence that it was naturally occurring, the lab there apparently was used for researching coronavirus and viral diseases because that region is a hotbed for them.

Could it have been studied and accidentally released into the Wild? Sure..... but not likely. But this is a different (and more plausible) explanation than the Chinese designing it in a lab to ruin the world economy.

As far as I've seen, they no longer believe it came from a wet market as previously believed, so if there's evidence of negligence at their labs, it probably should be looked into. IF there is evidence.

Devil · Jul 19, 2020

Chris Contra said:
You seem really upset that an individual was able to counter your entire point with a few accredited links and your response was equivalent to POTUS just "going with my gut!" So yes the assessments are early but guess what; that's all we have right now. You have absolutely zero credible sources that say the Chinese government covered up anything. You have a raving lunatic & his inept admin trying to find any scapegoat possible. It actually comes off as really xenophobic since again; you lack any credible evidence or research besides Beholding a Pale White Horse.

Essentially; you always lead with the data you have not the data you wish you had.

Calm down; you don't want to box with God your arms aren't long enough. Take a breather; log off & relax.

Sorry, what? I'm xenophobic now because I criticize the role the chinese government has played in this pandemic up until now and based on that would not be surprised if they would cover stuff up? That's just wild and the exact same behaviour I previously called out. So it was to be expected, but still, just wow at that.

I guess I'm anti-American or Russian too because I'd expect a lot of bullshit from their goverments based on previous bullshittery. I better not be pessimistic about my own government either based on the past then. Hope you realize how dumb that leap of logic sounds.

You clearly both misread my post, thought I was suggesting the virus was lab-made, you thought you broke news to me by telling me that the current assessment is that the virus was not lab-made, you acted all high and mighty about it because the first thing you suspect is some Trumper trying to spin stuff instead of taking in what somebody said as just that.

You still act as if I said the chinese government certainly did this or that when I only talked about the possibility, because I thought it is weird that the topic is immediately brought to Trump and his plan behind it. I said to not rule it out just because Trump likes that info, if we want to get to the truth in the end. The lab was researching corona viruses and therefore a lab accident is a possibility that is currently looked at. We should look at all possible sources and not dismiss one just because a political leader could use it to scapegoat China for his own failures just before the election. Covid-19 is about more than America.

No, I will not calm down and keep calling you out for your shitty way of engaging in a discussion. If you don't know where I'm coming from with what I said, think I'm wrong, just start a conversation, tell me where you think I'm wrong instead of putting me in a box to stomp on. You might learn that you actually just got something wrong and didn't need to make an ass out of yourself.

just_myles · Jul 19, 2020

Jonnax said:
O well?
Like what's Trump's game here. Is doesn't make sense.

Well I guess his supporters are fucking stupid.

Like saying that it's China's fault for the virus.

Still doesn't change that the US government fucked up.

I agree. His administration stilll completely and utterly blew the response.

Xando · Jul 19, 2020

Jonnax said:
O well?
Like what's Trump's game here. Is doesn't make sense.

Well I guess his supporters are fucking stupid.

Like saying that it's China's fault for the virus.

Still doesn't change that the US government fucked up.

He's trying to distract from his failure and move blame to china.

Why do you think the trade war has flared up in the past two weeks? It's very clear what their new strategy is.

Nome · Jul 19, 2020

Devil said:
Sorry, what? I'm xenophobic now because I criticize the role the chinese government has played in this pandemic up until now and based on that would not be surprised if they would cover stuff up? That's just wild and the exact same behaviour I previously called out. So it was to be expected, but still, just wow at that.

I guess I'm anti-American or Russian too because I'd expect a lot of bullshit from their goverments based on previous bullshittery. I better not be pessimistic about my own government either based on the past then. Hope you realize how dumb that leap of logic sounds.

You clearly both misread my post, thought I was suggesting the virus was lab-made, you thought you broke news to me by telling me that the current assessment is that the virus was not lab-made, you acted all high and mighty about it because the first thing you suspect is some Trumper trying to spin stuff instead of taking in what somebody said as just that.

You still act as if I said the chinese government certainly did this or that when I only talked about the possibility, because I thought it is weird that the topic is immediately brought to Trump and his plan behind it. I said to not rule it out just because Trump likes that info, if we want to get to the truth in the end. The lab was researching corona viruses and therefore a lab accident is a possibility that is currently looked at. We should look at all possible sources and not dismiss one just because a political leader could use it to scapegoat China for his own failures just before the election. Covid-19 is about more than America.

No, I will not calm down and keep calling you out for your shitty way of engaging in a discussion. If you don't know where I'm coming from with what I said, think I'm wrong, just start a conversation, tell me where you think I'm wrong instead of putting me in a box to stomp on. You might learn that you actually just got something wrong and didn't need to make an ass out of yourself.

But there's no evidence linking the outbreak to the lab at all.
So what are you on about?

Airegin · Jul 19, 2020

Devil said:
Sorry, what? I'm xenophobic now because I criticize the role the chinese government has played in this pandemic up until now and based on that would not be surprised if they would cover stuff up? That's just wild and the exact same behaviour I previously called out. So it was to be expected, but still, just wow at that.

I guess I'm anti-American or Russian too because I'd expect a lot of bullshit from their goverments based on previous bullshittery. I better not be pessimistic about my own government either based on the past then. Hope you realize how dumb that leap of logic sounds.

You clearly both misread my post, thought I was suggesting the virus was lab-made, you thought you broke news to me by telling me that the current assessment is that the virus was not lab-made, you acted all high and mighty about it because the first thing you suspect is some Trumper trying to spin stuff instead of taking in what somebody said as just that.

You still act as if I said the chinese government certainly did this or that when I only talked about the possibility, because I thought it is weird that the topic is immediately brought to Trump and his plan behind it. I said to not rule it out just because Trump likes that info, if we want to get to the truth in the end. The lab was researching corona viruses and therefore a lab accident is a possibility that is currently looked at. We should look at all possible sources and not dismiss one just because a political leader could use it to scapegoat China for his own failures just before the election. Covid-19 is about more than America.

No, I will not calm down and keep calling you out for your shitty way of engaging in a discussion. If you don't know where I'm coming from with what I said, think I'm wrong, just start a conversation, tell me where you think I'm wrong instead of putting me in a box to stomp on. You might learn that you actually just got something wrong and didn't need to make an ass out of yourself.

I just want to say I perfectly understood what you wrote. A lot of people here just quickly scan posts and draw the wrong conclusions. You didn't say anything wrong.

TarpitCarnivore · Jul 19, 2020

One would assume that if they knew of something they'd take measures to prevent it.

This is like a home owner saying "Yeah we knew about the hurricane" but then doing nothing to protect their house.

Devil · Jul 19, 2020

Nome said:
But there's no evidence linking the outbreak to the lab at all.
So what are you on about?

There is no evidence for the market theory either, yet we talk about that too. We don't have much evidence at all, just leads. All of them should be taken seriously. Why would you dismiss a lead as long as we don't know what happened? A lab which researched corona viruses close to ground zero is a lead, nothing less and nothing more.

To get over a possible language barrier here: I'm using evidence as 'proof', evidence seems to translate into proof (hard facts) and leads (indication/signs) in German, I'm not a native english speaker.

TeaberryShark · Jul 19, 2020

at the end of the day, it doesn't matter where or why the virus is here, it only matters what we are doing to mitigate it and right now trump hasn't done shit but make it worse so...

Earthstrike · Jul 19, 2020

Devil said:
Sorry, what? I'm xenophobic now because I criticize the role the chinese government has played in this pandemic up until now and based on that would not be surprised if they would cover stuff up? That's just wild and the exact same behaviour I previously called out. So it was to be expected, but still, just wow at that.

I guess I'm anti-American or Russian too because I'd expect a lot of bullshit from their goverments based on previous bullshittery. I better not be pessimistic about my own government either based on the past then. Hope you realize how dumb that leap of logic sounds.

You clearly both misread my post, thought I was suggesting the virus was lab-made, you thought you broke news to me by telling me that the current assessment is that the virus was not lab-made, you acted all high and mighty about it because the first thing you suspect is some Trumper trying to spin stuff instead of taking in what somebody said as just that.

You still act as if I said the chinese government certainly did this or that when I only talked about the possibility, because I thought it is weird that the topic is immediately brought to Trump and his plan behind it. I said to not rule it out just because Trump likes that info, if we want to get to the truth in the end. The lab was researching corona viruses and therefore a lab accident is a possibility that is currently looked at. We should look at all possible sources and not dismiss one just because a political leader could use it to scapegoat China for his own failures just before the election. Covid-19 is about more than America.

No, I will not calm down and keep calling you out for your shitty way of engaging in a discussion. If you don't know where I'm coming from with what I said, think I'm wrong, just start a conversation, tell me where you think I'm wrong instead of putting me in a box to stomp on. You might learn that you actually just got something wrong and didn't need to make an ass out of yourself.

Firstly, the idea it leaked from a Chinese lab was generated by conservatives to cover for trump in the first place. This is evidenced by the fact that all early information sources regarding such an idea were from right wingers. Secondly, the idea it accidentally "leaked" from a lab. Wanna explain how that went down? Did a coronavirus faucet not have it's lugnuts screwed on to tight, and it just leaked coronavirus everywhere? Did someone carelessly toss out a vial of coronavirus and some random chinese passerby decided to lick it?

You're getting shit on because you are spreading disinformation in a classically conservative way. By just "suggesting" it and putting it out there as a "possibility" so that you can act indignant when the depth of the stupidity of the idea is exposed.

Anarion07 · Jul 19, 2020

Earthstrike said:
Firstly, the idea it leaked from a Chinese lab was generated by conservatives to cover for trump in the first place. This is evidenced by the fact that all early information sources regarding such an idea were from right wingers. Secondly, the idea it accidentally "leaked" from a lab. Wanna explain how that went down? Did a coronavirus faucet not have it's lugnuts screwed on to tight, and it just leaked coronavirus everywhere? Did someone carelessly toss out a vial of coronavirus and some random chinese passerby decided to lick it?

People working with viruses can be infected when necessary precautions are not adhered to. It's human error, it happens. I don't believe that was the case here at all, but don't ridicule the probability of that happening so easily. My lab works with yellow fever and SARS-CoV-2, so I know what I'm talking about.

Euron · Jul 19, 2020

I don't understand the end goal here, do they want war with China? I imagine the main goal is to deflect all responsibility from Trump but regardless, Europe is recovering nicely while the US is seeing over 70,000 case per day. It's really hard to argue that Trump didn't fuck up when the US is so behind the rest of the world.

Pop-O-Matic · Jul 19, 2020

Jonnax said:
O well?
Like what's Trump's game here. Is doesn't make sense.

Well I guess his supporters are fucking stupid.

Like saying that it's China's fault for the virus.

Still doesn't change that the US government fucked up.

His plan is to wag the dog and try to ignite a full-blown war with China to sew up his re-election.

Devil · Jul 19, 2020

Earthstrike said:
Firstly, the idea it leaked from a Chinese lab was generated by conservatives to cover for trump in the first place. This is evidenced by the fact that all early information sources regarding such an idea were from right wingers. Secondly, the idea it accidentally "leaked" from a lab. Wanna explain how that went down? Did a coronavirus faucet not have it's lugnuts screwed on to tight, and it just leaked coronavirus everywhere? Did someone carelessly toss out a vial of coronavirus and some random chinese passerby decided to lick it?

You're getting shit on because you are spreading disinformation in a classically conservative way. By just "suggesting" it and putting it out there as a "possibility" so that you can act indignant when the depth of the stupidity of the idea is exposed.

The first time, and every other time, I read about the possibility was not in conservative media so I don't know about the 'origin' of that information, just that it is there and that trustworthy media has reported on it, as a possibility, nothing more. Right wingers spreading this widely is not proof for a conspiracy, it just shows that right wingers eat that shit up because they can shift the blame for failures at home even more to China. It sound like a likely scenario, I will not deny that, nor did I ever say it couldn't be made up or that it wasn't overblown following an agenda. If you have solid evidence that the whole origin of this is a right wing conspiracy I will gladly accept that and will have learnt something new. Right now it rather looks to me like there was a slight chance of a lab outbreak and of course conservatives would love to spread that.
I still think I don't deserve any shit for anything I said. Just because it is indeed a strategy which a lot of Republicans for example follow, "Just asking questions", insane questions, it shouldn't be prohibited to sincerely discuss possibilities instead of dismissing them. Doing so because my political enemy might profit isn't the right way either, imo.

I'm also not a lab worker but it doesn't sound as crazy as you make it sound tbh.

Stooge · Jul 19, 2020

Devil said:
I don't know why both couldn't be true: The US government fucked up big time at containing the virus AND the lab might have played its part in letting it loose. Of course Trump is going to use any tiny scrap of 'evidence' to shift the blame, but that alone should'nt let you rule out the possibility that the virus might have something to do with the lab. We can be pretty certain already that the chinese government tried to downplay the outbreak early on for their own advantage and thereby contributed to the worldwide spread, so this isn't farfetched. Just because Trump loves this info we shouldn't act like it's not there.

Please don't spread bullshit on the internet that "sounds possible" with no basis in reality. The virus did not come from the lab per every fucking expert on earth.

You (and I) are not virulogists or experts in pandemics, so we should defer to those that are experts that are telling us information that is based on decades of research and expertise.

What you are engaging in is both disingenuous (you know nothing other than laymans logic here) and dangerous (distracting whataboutism with tinges of xenophobia) and this line of "sounds possible to me" reasoning is how we wind up with anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers because monday-morning "experts" run their mouth about things they have zero expertise in.

Mobu · Jul 19, 2020

CHI-NA!

Deleted member 15737 · Jul 19, 2020

Yeah, 'china developed and released a bio-weapon and successfully killed 130k Americans by doing so while I shouted about not wearing masks and liberating states from governors doing all they can to help save the people from their attacks' really wasn't a well thought out angle either, I suppose.

Stooge · Jul 19, 2020

Euron said:
I don't understand the end goal here, do they want war with China? I imagine the main goal is to deflect all responsibility from Trump but regardless, Europe is recovering nicely while the US is seeing over 70,000 case per day. It's really hard to argue that Trump didn't fuck up when the US is so behind the rest of the world.

Their end-goal is to try and make China the bad-guy so they can engage in racist xenophobia and try and activate his bases anger at China instead of his administrations complete fuckup of handling Covid-19 in the US. This is like the 10th time this administration has trotted this out to try and distract, and while it had some traction back in March, I doubt it will work at this point.

Zweizer · Jul 19, 2020

Devil said:
There is no evidence for the market theory either, yet we talk about that too. We don't have much evidence at all, just leads. All of them should be taken seriously. Why would you dismiss a lead as long as we don't know what happened? A lab which researched corona viruses close to ground zero is a lead, nothing less and nothing more.

To get over a possible language barrier here: I'm using evidence as 'proof', evidence seems to translate into proof (hard facts) and leads (indication/signs) in German, I'm not a native english speaker.

Oh yeah? Why don't you look into the possibility that it originated in the USA then. After all, that's where it's spreading the most!

Jonnax · Jul 19, 2020

Pop-O-Matic said:
His plan is to wag the dog and try to ignite a full-blown war with China to sew up his re-election.

I mean, that's clearly not the case.
He looks up to China's leader.
He admires what they do to the Uyghur people.

MajesticSoup · Jul 19, 2020

Stooge said:
Please don't spread bullshit on the internet that "sounds possible" with no basis in reality. The virus did not come from the lab per every fucking expert on earth.

I wouldnt say 'every.' At best lets go with 'no one knows.'

Heres a pretty good writeup (not that I would be able to tell, what is or isnt a good writeup)

Wuhan lab says there's no way coronavirus originated there. Here's the science.

Where did SARS-CoV-2 come from? Several ideas have been put forward from natural-borne in bats, an escape from a lab in Wuhan and others. Here's the murky origin story of the novel coronavirus.

www.livescience.com

Brand new lab in Wuhan(right by marketplace). Inexperienced technicians.

In 2015, WIV became China's first lab to reach the highest level of bioresearch safety, or BSL-4, meaning the lab could host research on the world's most dangerous pathogens, such as Ebola and Marburg viruses. (SARS-CoV-2 would require a BSL-3 or higher, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.)

"During interactions with scientists at the WIV laboratory, they noted the new lab has a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory," the officials said in their cable dated to Jan. 19, 2018.

What they were studying.

The WIV lab, along with researchers in the U.S. and Switzerland, showed in 2015 the scary-good capability of bat coronaviruses to thrive in human cells. In that paper, which was published in 2015 in the journal Nature Medicine, they described how they had created a chimeric SARS-like virus out of the surface spike protein of a coronavirus found in horseshoe bats, called SHC014, and the backbone of a SARS virus that could be grown in mice. The idea was to look at the potential of coronaviruses circulating in bat populations to infect humans. In a lab dish, the chimeric coronavirus could infect and replicate in primary human airway cells; the virus also was able to infect lung cells in mice.

Now on to the conspiracy theory part..

The Wuhan lab does work with the closest known relative of SARS-CoV-2, which is a bat coronavirus called RaTG13, evolutionary virologist Edward Holmes, of the Charles Perkins Center and the Marie Bashir Institute for Infectious Diseases and Biosecurity at the University of Sydney, said in a statement from the Australian Media Center. But, he added, "the level of genome sequence divergence between SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13 is equivalent to an average of 50 years (and at least 20 years) of evolutionary change." (That means that in the wild, it would take about 50 years for these viruses to evolve to be as different as they are.)

Though no scientists have come forth with even a speck of evidence that humans knowingly manipulated a virus using some sort of genetic engineering, a researcher at Flinders University in South Australia lays out another scenario that involves human intervention. Bat coronaviruses can be cultured in lab dishes with cells that have the human ACE2 receptor; over time, the virus will gain adaptations that let it efficiently bind to those receptors. Along the way, that virus would pick up random genetic mutations that pop up but don't do anything noticeable, said Nikolai Petrovsky, in the College of Medicine and Public Health at Flinders.

"The result of these experiments is a virus that is highly virulent in humans but is sufficiently different that it no longer resembles the original bat virus," Petrovsky said in a statement from the Australian Media Center. "Because the mutations are acquired randomly by selection, there is no signature of a human gene jockey, but this is clearly a virus still created by human intervention."

Earthstrike · Jul 19, 2020

Anarion07 said:
People working with viruses can be infected when necessary precautions are not adhered to. It's human error, it happens. I don't believe that was the case here at all, but don't ridicule the probability of that happening so easily. My lab works with yellow fever and SARS-CoV-2, so I know what I'm talking about.

I know, but if it happened this way, that would also have consequences on how events have planned it out. If there was an accident, that person would probably be sick (unless they're asymptomatic). If they were sick, they aren't going into work, or they do and people see they are sick. China now has MUCH better reaction time in addressing it, which means you'd have to assume China deliberately mishandled their response, etc ,etc. Taking almost any path from "It leaked from the lab" runs into issues when you think about the consequences of it.

Earthstrike · Jul 19, 2020

MajesticSoup said:
I wouldnt say 'every.' At best lets go with 'no one knows.'

Heres a pretty good writeup (not that I would be able to tell, what is or isnt a good writeup)

Wuhan lab says there's no way coronavirus originated there. Here's the science.

Where did SARS-CoV-2 come from? Several ideas have been put forward from natural-borne in bats, an escape from a lab in Wuhan and others. Here's the murky origin story of the novel coronavirus.

www.livescience.com

Brand new lab in Wuhan(right by marketplace). Inexperienced technicians.

What they were studying.

Now on to the conspiracy theory part..

This what I mean when I say every idea has consequences we can run through. In this thought experiment, we can then ask "why were inexperienced technicians the ones involved in this virus process" It would be like the USA giving nuclear bomb development to physics undergrads during world war 2.

Anarion07 · Jul 19, 2020

Earthstrike said:
I know, but if it happened this way, that would also have consequences on how events have planned it out. If there was an accident, that person would probably be sick (unless they're asymptomatic). If they were sick, they aren't going into work, or they do and people see they are sick. China now has MUCH better reaction time in addressing it, which means you'd have to assume China deliberately mishandled their response, etc ,etc. Taking almost any path from "It leaked from the lab" runs into issues when you think about the consequences of it.

You're arguing with the knowledge of the pandemic happening, not with the knowledge at the time point where it might have occured, but i really don't want to argue about this further because I do not think it happened that way.

Devil · Jul 19, 2020

Stooge said:
Please don't spread bullshit on the internet that "sounds possible" with no basis in reality. The virus did not come from the lab per every fucking expert on earth.

You (and I) are not virulogists or experts in pandemics, so we should defer to those that are experts that are telling us information that is based on decades of research and expertise.

What you are engaging in is both disingenuous (you know nothing other than laymans logic here) and dangerous (distracting whataboutism with tinges of xenophobia) and this line of "sounds possible to me" reasoning is how we wind up with anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers because monday-morning "experts" run their mouth about things they have zero expertise in.

Could we please stop with the assumption I'm spreading anything 'on the internet'? I'm talking about it exclusively in a thread about this very topic. The alleged danger of anything I'm talking about is contained right here.

I have talked about most of the other stuff in the following posts already. I didn't pick this up from some 'alternative media', right wingers or whatever but regular news. This is not something I just casually heard and thought "sounds possible so I'll go spread it", it is a topic which was discussed on mainstream media, from the very beginning it was said there is no proof yet and that it is actively used as propaganda by the US administration anyway. I know that. I was engaging solely because I thought it's weird that the topic immediately went to Trump's plan behind this cable, with the implication that it must be forged, while seemingly dismissing that there still might be a sliver of truth to it which we don't know yet. I trust Trump's administration to either forge evidence, or to use any scrap of information for his needs, no doubt about it. I also don't believe for a second that Pompeo and Trump have seen proof, otherwise they would have already dragged it through the public. Talking about that it still could have emerged from the lab, despite Trump possibly and probably lying about evidence, is not distraction, it's the very topic as far as I understand it. I still don't know what's so controversial about what I said.

You know what's disingenious btw? Accusing me of xenophobia because of criticism of the CCP and because I wouldn't be surprised if they covered up stuff we don't know yet. That's just fucked up and nothing else but a way to dismiss the speaker rather than their words. There is no single word I said that should be insulting to chinese people in general. I'm strictly talking about the government and have made that very clear.

I'm open to discussing this further via personal messages. I think I have said everything there is already and don't feel the reactions are justified or presented in a manner I want to deal with publicly.

Zweizer said:
Oh yeah? Why don't you look into the possibility that it originated in the USA then. After all, that's where it's spreading the most!

I don't know if this is supposed to be funny or clever. The US fucked up so much I'm glad they are banned from travelling to Europe.

Zweizer · Jul 19, 2020

Devil said:
I don't know if this is supposed to be funny or clever. The US fucked up so much I'm glad they are banned from travelling to Europe.

How can you be sure there's no sliver of truth to it?

Anarion07 · Jul 19, 2020

Zweizer said:
How can you be sure there's no sliver of truth to it?

Because genetic analyses of the first SARS-CoV-2 strains show a first emergence was likely in Guangdong, China. Nowhere near the US. but also not in Wuhan near the lab

Zweizer · Jul 19, 2020

Anarion07 said:
Because genetic analyses of the first SARS-CoV-2 strains show a first emergence was likely in Guangdong, China. Nowhere near the US. but also not in Wuhan near the lab

But I was told there was a sliver of truth that we don't know yet that it was man made.

Anarion07 · Jul 19, 2020

Zweizer said:
But I was told there was a sliver of truth that we don't know yet that it was man made.

I don't see anyone in this thread arguing that it was man-made.
It is a fact that it was not man-made.

Zweizer · Jul 19, 2020

Anarion07 said:
I don't see anyone in this thread arguing that it was man-made.
It is a fact that it was not man-made.

Maybe you don't see the devil then.

Anarion07 · Jul 19, 2020

Zweizer said:
Maybe you don't see the devil then.

I do see Devil, but you're not reading what he is saying.
He never said it was man-made. He argues that it might be possible that the outbreak came from a lab in Wuhan that is working with Bats and Coronaviridae in said bats, which of course leaves you with a higher risk of animal-to-man transmission since lab workers there are in contact with those bats carrying the viridae. That is not "man-made".
I don't agree with Devil at all, though.

shem · Jul 19, 2020

"Look guys, all available evidence contradicts what i'm saying and i have no evidence for my claims at all, but i'll cape for the viewpoint of obviously corrupt state department and government officials because i'm just asking questions because the CCP is worse."

Zweizer · Jul 19, 2020

Anarion07 said:
I do see Devil, but you're not reading what he is saying.
He never said it was man-made. He argues that it might be possible that the outbreak came from a lab in Wuhan that is working with Bats and Coronaviridae in said bats, which of course leaves you with a higher risk of animal-to-man transmission since lab workers there are in contact with those bats carrying the viridae. That is not "man-made".
I don't agree with Devil at all, though.

Literally devil's proof.

Anarion07 · Jul 19, 2020

Zweizer said:
Literally devil's proof.

What proof are you talking about?

USA State Department releases cable that helped spread claims coronavirus emerged from Chinese lab

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?

Designer / Self-requested ban

One Winged Slayer