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USA Powerlifting bans all trans women from competing as women (Read OP)
- Thread starter Deleted member 32679
- Start date
This. A blanket ban seems mighty unfair considering pre-puberty transition is a thing now.
Yeah, I did. You think that's enough to shut and close this issue?
Did you just call a trans woman he?
Brah you know who else would be arrested?
Trans women who haven't gotten their ID changed, which usually requires full surgery and what not, and in some states you can never change it.
But keep suggesting how oppressing trans women further is the solution to stopping the oppression of trans women.
We're talking about different divisions based on their physicality. The gap, if one exists between one man and one woman, would not be the greatest powerlifter vs. a medium-weight woman.
But then you will run into a problem of dudes wondering why they have to share their stage when women have their own stage to stand on? If Women Have their own Division than Men would want their own Division also. It would be hard to argue against that.
The three times world champion US Women's National soccer Team have said many times that they can only spar with up to U-15 Men's teams or else they get run over by a professional men's team. That's their words, not mine. And that's soccer, not the most contact-y sport of them all I can't inagine how in weightlifting this difference can get. Isn't the world records consistently higher in kilograms lifted in the men's than the women's side? Same thing in track and field.
I'm all for trans rights (H. Bomberguy is the shit) but this is a very complex topic where the answer may not be simple at all.
User Banned (1 weeks): transphobia
Train with male testosterone levels for years then compete against woman.... It's not a level playing field so this is the correct call.
Nice misgendering of transwomen there. Your idea is actually more harmful to trans people than it is to any cis people who are scared of us.
You're literally opening up every trans person who hasn't managed to change their ID to futher harassment in a place where you admit that people are out to get trans people. You're not even thinking about this from the perspective of trans people, but instead on how this can make things easier for literally everyone else.
What the hell kinda of point are you even trying to make
None of this makes sense
Just make it so pre-puberty transition is a requirement because that eliminates alot of factors that could be disputed.
I don't care how much you think you are for trans rights, when you use "yeah but men are stronger" to talk about trans women in women's sports
This is fantasy. Look at powerlifting records by weight class, similar weight men still outlift their woman counterparts by A LOT. Those women are not lazy and not just training enough.. give me a break.
I would imagine hormone therapy would limit your muscle growth and put you on a more even playing field, right?
I'm at a powerlifting gym 4 times a week, and this topic actually comes up a lot. Obviously most of the dudes in there have limited views on the subject, to put it nicely.
It's funny, they're the first to say "strength is strength" but that argument falls apart with weight and gender divisions.
I'm at a powerlifting gym 4 times a week, and this topic actually comes up a lot. Obviously most of the dudes in there have limited views on the subject, to put it nicely.
It's funny, they're the first to say "strength is strength" but that argument falls apart with weight and gender divisions.
Are there studies that say that there is no competitive advantage?
Not trying to be a devils advocate or contrarian. Genuinely curious, and asking because I'm sure there are people well equipped to answer this question that will be participating in this thread.
I think it's important to not eliminate the focus of discrimination in this conversation, but I am curious-- trying to look at this from the perspective of regulating a sports league. In almost all drug tested sports leagues/promotions/orgs, performance enhancing drugs are banned. Altering your natural abilities is prohibited. Transgender athletes live in a gray area here, no? The article points out that the athlete in question was allowed to participate in their non-drug tested division.
The article, and your post, points out that there is obviously natural genetic advantages that certain individuals have, but we've accepted that as true and fine, but we still prohibited other athletes from using steroids, or other PEDs to try to close the gap that the natural competitors have over them.
I just feel like there are two conversations happening here.
I am honestly not trying to sound flagrant or ignorant, so please excuse me if I am.
The men and women who are competing at powerlifting competitions at this stage are all really really really dedicated at their craft. No one is going to outtrain anyone that much. this is not Rocky or a anime in which if you can train you can beat someone there are just can't train for. That's why we have divisions
Why would you want to become a professional sports player if you will not be able to compete with your basic rights being respected ?
Banning trans women from competing means banning trans women from becoming powerlifters
If a person is harassing another they will be jailed no matter the gender they identify.
What you are doing is saying the imaginary safety of one people trumps the rights of others.
Also "his id" for a trans woman is transphobic.
And now you're going to get jumped on because you don't appreciate why these are different.
A male league is not necessary, whereas a female league is valuable.
That said, it's always very interesting to me that things such as, say, archery often do not have co-ed divisions. Things like that seem to feed into the idea that women's brains are inferior.
But Rocky lost, so this is Rocky I guess according to your perspective
You certainly did not, because you felt that monitoring hormone levels was tricky to manage, which is something that is already done for trans athletes, as well as done by our doctors to make sure that everything is okay.
Please take the time to actually read the sources and think past your own preconceptions here.
Why is everyone assuming men are competing against women.
Ya'll know what hormones and testosterone blockers are, right?
But there is already a female League. An Open league between Male and Female leagues would just be almost another team of dudes that washed out of the Male league for some reason and some women. It would not be anywhere nearly as equal as people invision.
i said "he" because in this case we are not talking about a trans woman, but a male harasser.
Its obvious that im only proposing this solution in places where changing the Id is easy, as it should be anywhere in the world.
Stop fighting with shadows, not everyone is trying to opress trans woman. In fact, i want to protect them as much as humanly possible.
Because your argument requires that you demonstrate the need for trans women to compete in men's divisions.
I certainly agree that forbidding any class of person from anything is a slippery slope, inately and absolutely discriminatory - but unfortunately we're going to have to go through a lot of ugly experimentation and tuning to get to the right answer. So I think you're right that the answer is NOT - but what's the "IS" answer? How is this resolved?
There's a cartoonish range of possibilities - that gets CRAZY complex internationally - including countries that range from literally executing trans people - so athletes would refuse to or be forbidden from competing there -- to (allegedly) deliberately sneaking (biological) men into past womens' competition. The IOC's existing guideline is only "fair" for one class of athlete, and tbh seems (possibly) disingenuous to me - https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...tes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery and obviously doesn't solve the problem at hand.
Is there even a general agreed-upon position on this globally, from the Trans community perspective? What's the suggested solve? (As opposed to agreement on what's unacceptable)
A 125 lb man can squat about 600+ lbs. A 125 lb women can squat about 400 lbs. The woman can bench about 250 lbs and the man can bench about 450 lbs. The woman can deadlift about 425 lbs and the man can deadlift 600+ lbs.
Dude creating an insane scenario where CIS people are impersonating trans people isn't protecting them, you're just being ridiculous
Hey everyone, look at this person who didn't read the article or any posts in this thread, doesn't know what they're talking about, and is posting in ignorance on gut feelings.
"I like that wildly popular cis person who did a nice thing for trans ppl so clearly i too am a champion of trans rights, except for this particular trans right, which is bad. "
Is this the new "I voted for Obama"?
Preventing trans women whose gender marker has not been changed on their ID is harm, not protection.
By instituting id laws lol
With protection like that we don't need oppressors, you're doing their job for them.
Official Staff Communication
This thread is moving fast and generating a high number of reports. Thread is temporarily locked so moderation can catch up.
Important Policy Post
Official Staff Communication
There is a study by Joanna Harper on transgender athletes' performance versus cisgender athletes' performance that was published in the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities in 2015. This was the first-ever-study of transgender athletes, according to the Washington Post. The study showed that as testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women experience a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and other physical characteristics.
Furthermore, the IOC has already set the standard for guidelines on transgender athletes:
You can read the full study for yourself here. (Warning: this does open a PDF document!)
You can also read the story about Joanna Harper and the research involved in Science Magazine.
There is also additional studies to collaborate the original study. As mentioned in this article in Cosmos Magazine:
You can read the full study for yourself here. (Warning: this does open a PDF document!)
Another study, called Sport and Transgender People: A Systematic Review of the Literature Relating to Sport Participation and Competitive Sport Policies, that was published in 2017 came to the same exact conclusion as these two others:
You can read the full study for yourself here.
Based on the established criteria by the International Olympics Committee, their panel of expert scientists and physicians, and the study by Joanna Harper, and the collaborating studies, Resetera policy is that anyone concern posting about genetic advantages by transgender women in competitive sports or claiming transgender women have genetic advantages will be treated as transphobia and/or spreading misinformation on a sensitive issue and moderated appropriately. We have no interest in allowing ignorance to thrive in these threads, nor do we wish to place an undue burden on our transgender community to educate people in threads like these. This policy will be enforced from this post onward and in any future threads or posts on this subject.
If you have questions on this modpost or policy, please contact one of our mod captains (B-Dubs, Mist, Hecht) directly. Thanks.
Furthermore, the IOC has already set the standard for guidelines on transgender athletes:
You can read the full study for yourself here. (Warning: this does open a PDF document!)
You can also read the story about Joanna Harper and the research involved in Science Magazine.
There is also additional studies to collaborate the original study. As mentioned in this article in Cosmos Magazine:
You can read the full study for yourself here. (Warning: this does open a PDF document!)
Another study, called Sport and Transgender People: A Systematic Review of the Literature Relating to Sport Participation and Competitive Sport Policies, that was published in 2017 came to the same exact conclusion as these two others:
You can read the full study for yourself here.
Based on the established criteria by the International Olympics Committee, their panel of expert scientists and physicians, and the study by Joanna Harper, and the collaborating studies, Resetera policy is that anyone concern posting about genetic advantages by transgender women in competitive sports or claiming transgender women have genetic advantages will be treated as transphobia and/or spreading misinformation on a sensitive issue and moderated appropriately. We have no interest in allowing ignorance to thrive in these threads, nor do we wish to place an undue burden on our transgender community to educate people in threads like these. This policy will be enforced from this post onward and in any future threads or posts on this subject.
If you have questions on this modpost or policy, please contact one of our mod captains (B-Dubs, Mist, Hecht) directly. Thanks.
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I know you're banned but this is a goddamn joke. The definition of a fake ally.
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That would be horrible idea as men naturally have higher portion of their body weight muscle so even with similar weights men outperform women.
Example from Rio Olympics:
Men 56kg winning result: Snatch: 137kg, Clean & Jerk: 170kg Total = 307kg
Women 58kg (so 2kg of advantage even) winning result: Snatch 110kg, Clean & Jerk: 130kg Total = 240kg
The agreed upon position from the trans community is that trans woman are woman and this is non negotiable.
I have no idea why do you think that the IOC guidelines does not solve "the problem at hand". Also being trans and fitting the IOC guidelines is already so hard and fuck your life that if any man wants to have gender dysphoria and become a 3rd rate citizen I think they deserve to fit the category. It is not the category is woman only anyway since lots of trans men played in woman divisions before transition =P
Lifting is one of those competitions that really highlight the difference that hormones make. The fact the it is individual and a measure of raw athletic potential makes it such a great experimenting sport.
Based on the mod edit sources, it really does sound like the best policy for this kind of thing really should be treating individuals of each sport on a case by case basis. Shit is really complicated and even the members of these studies agree that more research needs to be done:
To blanket ban all trans women frankly smells of either prejudice or simply laziness or lack of resources to be able to make case by case judgements. Or most likely a heavy mixture of all these
I'll just say I'm glad I'm not amongst the people that are in charge of the decision making in these sports. The incredible pressure to make or not make any change on rules, ban or not ban, is not something I wish I'd carry on my shoulders.
Lets also not forget that most power lifting does not have strict testing. Considering the effects of PEDs, the difference will be bigger than olympic lifts.
A lot of people would benefit from reading this Twitter thread. It doesn't touch on this specific issue (it was sparked by transphobic and misogynistic "your breasts are fake!!"-esque commentary), but it's usefully informative either way.
So the ban is transphobic on a number of levels, including in how it privileges uninformed cis voices. "Assigned male at birth" should not be a determinative factor at all.
So the ban is transphobic on a number of levels, including in how it privileges uninformed cis voices. "Assigned male at birth" should not be a determinative factor at all.
Exactly, even the example in the op she won a competition and set a STATE record. Like what a fucking advantage is that which you can't even set a country or worldwide record?