Wouldn't that be eliminating women entirely from the sport then? There would never be any woman champions, and thus no funding for them.
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USA Powerlifting bans all trans women from competing as women (Read OP)
- Thread starter Deleted member 32679
- Start date
you underestimate how much people hate trans people. You cant even argue that those people would be ashamed of their fragile masculinity if they dressed like women. I live in a country that murders trans people by the hundreds for no fucking reason at all. People go to great lenghts to make their lives hell here. Im not saying we shouldnt have trans friendly bathroom. I just think there should have some sort of rule to it. Like, having to change their gender in their I.D.
I don't think thats a great Idea at all. It would hurt women in sport way more than it would help them because it would lopsided sports almost to 80-20 and women would not get their shot as often.
I know you're banned but holy fuck this might be the dumbest post I've seen in a long while.
Fallon Fox competed in the lowest of professional levels and her whole career spanned like 2 years. Professional MMA is full of weekend warriors that decide to take a pro fight after a couple of years of training after their desk job. She only fought once against an opponent that had any skills and she got knocked out.
Make a female league and an open league. No need to make a league that is men only.
I'm going to need to see WAY more research stating theres literally no differences in strength or other biological systems before I consider this okay. Im open minded enough to consider it, but I'm not nearly convinced yet. Until we are certain I have no problem with the separation until they start sectioning the athletes off by weight and height which should do a much better job at this stuff.
Women would be matched against people of similar strength, height, etc.
Banning trans women from competing alongside cis women is the best way to ensure that research cannot happen.
Then women would lose every event that why we have them in the first place.
common sense. copying and pasting the bone density shit in every thread about this doesn't make it valid. but I'm out, this isnt worth it. there is a select group of people here that will never be rational about this, and they will always turn it into a hate thing. I get why, but I shouldn't have engaged.
It's impressive how quickly people will turn their back on scientific evidence when the topic is about trans people.
Like, what the fuck is this common sense shit even!?
Well, who owns the burden of proof in this case? The league or the trans community? It's probably on the trans community to provide irrefutable evidence that there is no competitive advantage. I'm not familiar enough with this debate to say whether or not that's been achieved so I have no opinion either way. Seems like at least some of the stuff is bogus such as bone density which is interesting.
There's a very big difference between natural born genetic advantages and advantages that can be achieved by choice i.e transitioning. This is not a commentary on whether or not being transgender is a choice, but the biological facts associated with being born a male (in this case). Sports at an elite level are cut throat competitive and the difference between winning and losing is often due to the slimmest of margins, so I absolutely 100% believe that people would abuse this if the right controls aren't there. They'd have to set standards and enforce them strictly which is going to be uncomfortable and seem unfair. For example setting an age by which hormone blockers needed to have been started, or testing for current hormone levels etc etc. Even that is a messy situation for obvious reasons.
Yeah sorry, anyone thinking this is cut and dry transphobia isn't thinking about the entire picture. Like I get it, transgender people are a marginalized group and we want to do everything to help them achieve equality. But it can't be equality at the expense of others.
There's a very big difference between natural born genetic advantages and advantages that can be achieved by choice i.e transitioning. This is not a commentary on whether or not being transgender is a choice, but the biological facts associated with being born a male (in this case). Sports at an elite level are cut throat competitive and the difference between winning and losing is often due to the slimmest of margins, so I absolutely 100% believe that people would abuse this if the right controls aren't there. They'd have to set standards and enforce them strictly which is going to be uncomfortable and seem unfair. For example setting an age by which hormone blockers needed to have been started, or testing for current hormone levels etc etc. Even that is a messy situation for obvious reasons.
Yeah sorry, anyone thinking this is cut and dry transphobia isn't thinking about the entire picture. Like I get it, transgender people are a marginalized group and we want to do everything to help them achieve equality. But it can't be equality at the expense of others.
I have no idea how this gets resolved simply. It's going to be a clarion call for good people and bad, and dishonest manipoulators of both. It'll be used as a guiding light for pro and anti movements.
There's practical sort of biological factors.
There's political and social factors.
There's horrifying extremes at every spoke of this from "TERFS" to common or garden bigots.
There's the fragility of the (improving, sort of and only in some places) Trans rights movement.
There's institutional problems with sports anyway (how many biologically female protestors are taking steroids? My guess is same as every sport and gender and it's rife and a physiological and systematic advantage just as sex/gender can be.)
What happens if you create a third category of competition that is trans/gender/sex spectrum? Do you simply create a smaller pond with the same physical issues? Does it denigrate those athletes to a sub-class, or embrace them and elevate them? And powerlifting is an extreme as it relates to gender and sex differences - what about horse racing? Golf (including equipment and handicapping)? Table Tennis?
I have no idea, but whatever the right thing is, it's going to be near impossible to align agreement around it.
If we can jump to some optimistic sci-fi for a moment, hopefully medical and biological advances can eventually give people better choices and create a better spectrum or platform for the discussion, assuming competitive sports don't themselves evolve into something unexpected.
There's practical sort of biological factors.
There's political and social factors.
There's horrifying extremes at every spoke of this from "TERFS" to common or garden bigots.
There's the fragility of the (improving, sort of and only in some places) Trans rights movement.
There's institutional problems with sports anyway (how many biologically female protestors are taking steroids? My guess is same as every sport and gender and it's rife and a physiological and systematic advantage just as sex/gender can be.)
What happens if you create a third category of competition that is trans/gender/sex spectrum? Do you simply create a smaller pond with the same physical issues? Does it denigrate those athletes to a sub-class, or embrace them and elevate them? And powerlifting is an extreme as it relates to gender and sex differences - what about horse racing? Golf (including equipment and handicapping)? Table Tennis?
I have no idea, but whatever the right thing is, it's going to be near impossible to align agreement around it.
If we can jump to some optimistic sci-fi for a moment, hopefully medical and biological advances can eventually give people better choices and create a better spectrum or platform for the discussion, assuming competitive sports don't themselves evolve into something unexpected.
how about you post some studies you coward lmao
but nah just run away because people don't buy your bullshit
"common sense" my ass
Are you planning to pull everyone's identification when they just want to pew? What should students do in this situation?
We can't be afraid to make progress because of shitty people or bigots. If someone wants to assault someone in a bathroom, they don't have to be trans to do this, and it is a crime either way.
Biological advantages are more than just height and size. A similar sized man will almost always defeat the same sized woman.
Every post you've made has been antagonistic, and all I've done is respond to you civilly. Rationality is not determined by the person who exclaims their rationality the loudest.
That's a terrible idea borne of no evidence. All it does is hurt trans people in order to prevent bogeymen.
i don't know how USA powerlifting works (or really sports in general), so here we go. in my vague made up proposal, there'd be different tiers of the competition in which people of similar height, weight, etc. compete with each other. i don't think that'd prevent women from competing.
*Given the same skill level and time in the sport. Trained women will still beat untrained men when you compensate for size.
Men are WAY stronger than women of the same size. Lifting also has a weight cutting element and men are also way better at weight cutting than women.
Just as a reference, at the Olympic level 56 kg Men (the smallest division) can outlift women at the 75 and higher division (the heaviest). Given the same weight, men lift about 30% more weight than women.
Ah the old "I got called out on my bullshit so now I'm leaving" tactic.
Similar height/weight man will always out powerlift a similar sized woman. Making competitions based only on size/weight is still eliminating virtually all women from the sport.
We're talking about competitions.... both would be trained and the women would lose.
I'm going to need the receipts on men outlifting women regardless of training.
A woman who trains longer and harder than a man of a similar size will generally win. Further, even if we account for that, we can also account for more than just strength and height (which is why I said etc.).
The right thing is absolutely not BAN EVERY TRANS WOMAN the second the FIRST TRANS WOMAN WIN SOMETHING
Trans women have been able to transition for DECADES and just now a trans woman won something.
So let me get this straight
You think men who want to murder trans women, will disguise themselves as trans women to prove why they ought to be murdered and thus that'as why rules should be in place where trans women can only pee after they've had their ID checked and only if it says F on it.
Is your solution to racism separate water fountains?
Can you guys read the article in the OP or literally any of the posts that give sources on the first page before saying this kind of thing?
Look at any Olympic record ever?
I see. So women just need to work harder to catch up with men, eh? There's no actual biological differences that would always allow men to break every world record ever? You're wrong.
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I think the best thing you can say is that it's understandable that people believe this before they're properly educated on it. Once you've got the information in front of you showing how pointless the banning is, you're just a bigot if you keep spouting that shit.
no
...:v
Yes, hence why the level of training and skill a woman has can give advantage over a man.
But it wont be against Untrained Men. It will be against trained Men. I watched a few videos of female gymnasts watching Men do their routines and doing other Routines and they usually pretty amazed at the ease at which the dudes do it. They could compete but you would almost never see women at the highest level of any sport anymore. Even if you made leagues open Almost no women would make it on the teams. Like Basketball and Football would pretty much be the same with maybe a few more Female Kickers but outside of that nothing about the sport would change.
Really... Fuck out of here.
If I said "Make a male league and an open league. No need to make a league that is women only." I would get jumped on...
Yeah, no. Having to show your ID shouldn't be on your mind when all you want to do is take a shit or piss.
How would you determine where to draw the line for strength when it comes to sports that are all about strength lol. If the criteria is just height and weight that would essentially eliminate women from basically every professional sport. There is a reason there are gender categories.
I think the only way to see if Trans athletes have an advantage will be to look at the total number of athletes in the sport vs. the total number of trans athletes and then look at their representation at the top level. If trans athletes are 2% of female power lifters and make up 10% of the record holders for example that would show a discrepancy. Also you would expect to see ftm trans athletes being represented too.
Power lifting is an interesting one since outside of muscle which is easily fixed with hormones, bone lengths are different which will have an impact on leverages etc for the lifts. Longer arms relative to height = better deadlift etc.
couldn't there be a magical f(right combination of metrics) = what tier you belong in to smooth out who, regardless of sex, belongs in which tier and can still be competitive?
having separate competitions for men and women entirely (and barring trans from "crossing over" to the other side or whatever) is not a bad initial solution. it's probably very effective with as little effort as possible. but it seems to me like we can crunch numbers and do something more interesting these days.
Thank you.
If you can't elaborate on your own argument without resorting to just blindly saying "it's common sense" or complaining that your opposition is.....sticking to the talking point you can't refute..? Then yes, I'd agree with you, it's probably best you don't post in these threads.
I didn't say only height and strength were factors, so you're operating on a flawed premise.
That is what I am saying. make an open division and a womens division. We might see a women or two make it to the open division, and that would be great, but its not gonna become a standard.
Can you explain why you think this? Everything in me thinks that such a ban would in fact force the conversation even more. Look at this thread. If anything, forcing the separation should push the issue of getting the research that proves the ban is ridiculous to begin with. And once thats out we fix things. I can't really see how either way would slow down the likelihood that research on this topic would be pursued.
I think this is a bad idea. We should just do the research. Its hard to believe it hasnt already been done. But theres either an advantage or there isnt. We don't need more "categories" IMO.
This is not a shounen anime or a Rocky movie where you can easily "level up if you grind enough". Both are going to train like hell, you think a guy will just stop and say "nah, this is good enough"?
Rhetorical question.
She will hit a wall in her training before the man does. She wont hold muscle the same way a dude holds muscle and once he goes past that gap than she isn't on top anymore and more trained men will blow past that peak because its sports and most of the people there are the top 1% of their sport.
No, this pro powerlifter , these man ar at the peak at which people can lift. THis is not something that training can make up.
User Banned (1 month) - Transphobia
no, not showing the id to pee. But lets say you are at in a shopping centre and a trans woman harasses you in the bathroom, when you call security, theyd check his I.D. Doing this kind of stuff is a crime where I live, so the man impersonating a trans woman would be arrested.
Oh they don't care about that, they just want to get their transphobic comments in under the guise of pseudoscience bullshit.
There is no need to make a men's only division when the sports are dominated by men, why is that so hard to see? You create a special division to nurture talent and give the space for an fair competition among women.