-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
USA Powerlifting bans all trans women from competing as women (Read OP)
- Thread starter Deleted member 32679
- Start date
For starters, the thread is only five pages. Stop being a 50ppp heathen.
If there was no staff post, there would pages and pages of people posting shit like: "I would say this is the right decision right now." or "Makes sense." and never returning to the thread. Don't pretend like we are missing out on some brilliant discourse.
It would be like every other thread concerning the trans community. Page after page of the same ignorant argument being constantly corrected by a handful of people who have far too much patience.
But as I stated earlier, if you people disagree with the staff post they are more than welcome to post a sound argument that is backed up with facts. But no one wants to do that because they would rather complain about the staff.
That would be more prior to hormone treatment and testing.
I clarified in a later comment
I do not disagree with the staff post, I just accept there is more to be discussed here. There is a deeper discussion to be had, but I'd imagine a lot of people, myself included, do not want to go further down that path due to possible misinterpretation. Not like you'll get 24 hrs to come back and explain a point that might be taken wrong.
Please kindly elaborate on what's wrong with what I said.
I honestly see no reason why there's even gender segregation in sports.
There are sports where segregation is fine and there's sports where it's not.
Well no, not really.
I agree that the "good decision" posts are worthless, but the warning explicitly states that any post suggesting trans women have a genetic advantage over cis women will be treated as transphobic. There's no qualifier in there about making a "sound argument".
You should elaborate on this with the sports where its fine or not.
OP
OP
Here is a short video the people in this thread who believe an advantage is prevelant can watch instead of being abrasive.
Do you really think it would be fine to have women 100m runners compete with men? But for example I dont understand why sharpshooting is gendered.
You would be virtually eliminating all women champions and competition by doing so. Men would dominate their similarly weight/height women counterparts by a lot. Look at current world records by weight and there are vast differences between similarly weighted men and women.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_physiology
Skeleton[edit]
Comparison between a male (left) and a female pelvis (right).
The female skeleton is generally less massive, smoother, and more delicate than the male;[15] its rib cage is more rounded and smaller, its lumbar curve greater, and a generally longer and smaller female waist results from the chest being more narrow at the base, and the pelvis generally not as high.
The pelvis is, in general, different between the human female and male skeleton. It differs both in overall shape and structure. The female pelvis, adapted for gestation and childbirth, is less high, but proportionately wider and more circular than in the male; its sacrum—the triangular bone at the upper posterior of the pelvic cavity, serving as base of the spine—is also wider.[15] The female pelvis is tilted anteriorly, often resulting in the more sway-backed appearance.
In the female, the acetabula, the concave surfaces to which the balls of the femurs attach via ligaments, are located farther apart, which increases the distance between the most outer points of the femurs (their greater trochanters) and thus the width of the hips; female femurs are therefore, more generally angled (laterally, further away from vertical).[15] This greater angle applies a larger portion of the gravitational/vertical load as valgus torque (rotational force against the knee). This, combined with the female's weaker tendons & ligaments and a narrower intercondylar notch, causes increased susceptibility to injury of the ACL in female athletes. [16] [17] [18]
In contrast, the pelvis of the human male appears to be slightly narrower.[19] It is believed that this makes it more optimized for walking and that an even wider female pelvis would have made walking more difficult;[20][21] yet, more recent research tends to disprove this.[22]
The following further generalizations have been made regarding male-female skeletal differences:
- Males in general have denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments.[23]
- Female skulls and head bones differ in size and shape from the male skull, with the male mandible generally wider, larger, and squarer than the female.[24] In addition, males generally have a more prominent brow, an orbital with rounded border, and more greatly projecting mastoid processes.[25]
- Males have a more pronounced Adam's apple or thyroid cartilage (and deeper voices) due to larger vocal cords.[26]
- In males, the second digit (index finger) tends to be shorter than the fourth digit (ring finger), while in females the second digit tends to be longer than the fourth (see digit ratio).[27]
Muscle mass and strength[edit]
Females in general have lower total muscle mass than males, and also having lower muscle mass in comparison to total body mass;[31] males convert more of their caloric intake into muscle and expendable circulating energy reserves, while females tend to convert more into fat deposits.[32] As a consequence, males are generally physically stronger than females. While individual muscle fibers have similar strength between male and female, males have more fibers as a result of their greater total muscle mass.[33] Males remain stronger than females, when adjusting for differences in total body mass, due to the higher male muscle-mass to body-mass ratio.[34] The greater muscle mass is reported to be due to a greater capacity for muscular hypertrophy as a result of higher levels of circulating testosterone in males.[35]
Gross measures of body strength suggest that women are approximately 50-60% as strong as men in the upper body, and 60-70% as strong in the lower body.[36] One study of muscle strength in the elbows and knees—in 45 and older males and females—found the strength of females to range from 42 to 63% of male strength.[37] Another study found men to have significantly higher hand-grip strength than women, even when comparing untrained men with female athletes.[38] Differences in width of arm, thighs and calves also increase during puberty.
Respiratory system[edit]
Males typically have larger tracheae and branching bronchi, with about 56% greater lung volume per body mass. They also have larger hearts, 10% higher red blood cell count, higher haemoglobin, hence greater oxygen-carrying capacity. In athletes, the difference in oxygen-carrying capacity between men and women is much less prominent. They also have higher circulating clotting factors (vitamin K, prothrombin and platelets). These differences lead to faster healing of wounds and higher peripheral pain tolerance.[39]
edit: God what a bummer reading through all this as a woman. I'm a fucking weakling.
What valid reason is there to justify gender segregation in any sports? I'm genuinely asking.
While it would seem like a good idea to not have separate divisions for men and women, it would (at some sports, not all) eliminate women champions.
I get this, but how long does it take for those changes to happen?
For example, lets say I'm born a male and I've been wrestling since I was 8 years old and started lifting weights in middle school. Then, I begin my transition in my senior year of high school and have been on hormone therapy for a week. Is it ok for me to compete with the cis gender females in wrestling? Would I have any type of advantage?
There has to be a certain point, right?
Please elaborate. What sports and why would it eliminate women champions?
Almost every physical sport? Besides maybe sports revolving around dancing or aerobics? Which I'd still be skeptical of since men can perform more powerful flips/jumps. I'm really trying hard to think of a sport that would be not affected.
edit: found one :P
Come on man, there is a wealth of information on site regarding trans issues. There have been multiple threads about the bigotry the trans community faces, there's and entire Hangout folks can read.
You can use any of these resources to form whatever argument you're trying free of the ignorance and bigotry that usually gets people banned in these threads.
And as I wrote, if you disagree, disprove but use facts and actually proof instead just writing "It's just genetics that trans women have an athletic advantage over cis women." Backup your argument with facts.
Also, as mods constantly state: "If you have an issue with moderation, feel free to PM a mod." If you are unsure if your argument will get you banned or not, have a mod review it. And I am not talking about every post, just whatever initial argument you feel should be discussed and go from there.
Yup, equestrian sports are one where having women not compete with men is super silly. Also I think there's some equestrian sports where there's teams that consist of both men and women. The men do the lifting etc. And like I said, sharpshooting (but I think in some events men compete with women in this?).Almost every physical sport? Besides maybe sports revolving around dancing or aerobics? Which I'd still be skeptical of since men can perform more powerful flips/jumps. I'm really trying hard to think of a sport that would be not affected.
edit: found one :P
I disagree. I don't see why men would dominate physical sports if the sports is segregated by height and/or weight.Almost every physical sport? Besides maybe sports revolving around dancing or aerobics? Which I'd still be skeptical of since men can perform more powerful flips/jumps. I'm really trying hard to think of a sport that would be not affected.
edit: found one :P
You have like 2 sports ever where women would have even ranked in an open field. And those are the ones mentioned earlier.
Because men are physically stronger pound per pound that women. More muscle and less fat. Stronger tendons and ligaments. Differences in bone angles. At the same body mass and training level, a man is like 20-30% better than a woman in every athletic measure.
And as that moderator wrote, policy is that ANY post which disagrees will be actioned as transphobic.
Unless it's updated to specify that you can disagree if you present a reasonable argument, it's no surprise that people are reticent to do so.
I'm quite ok with that being the official policy but it's not fair to pretend that people are simply incapable of making such an argument as opposed to explicitly being told by staff not to.
Did you even read the Wikipedia link discussing the vast strength differences between men and women, among other things? How about you look at just world class rankings in general and compare the best men of a certain weight class to their woman counterparts and see the glaring gap that shows there? Someone was posting stats from it earlier.
edit: found some from earlier in the thread
Last edited:
The fastest 100m woman runner, Florence Griffith-Joyner is 1,7m tall and a man, who is the top 14th of all time Mike Rodgers is also 1,7m tall is almost a 1 second faster than the fastest woman. There's more to being competetive than height or weight. To put that into perspective, the fastest woman would be about 10 metres behind the 14th fastest man who is the same height.
2 years on HRT as far as I am aware.
This info is all in here too. And every trans sport thread has it.
I think in order to have this discussion you crave you need to be aware about such things before you construct arguments like in your post.
EDIT what I mean is your example is pretty much fear mongering and that helps no one.
They might have been the same height but I doubt they were the same weight.
It's either the Olympics segregate all sports or segregate none. Selectively choosing seems discriminatory to me and it's good to be consistent. Also what about the people who don't identify as either man nor woman, they're pretty much forced to identify as man /woman in order to compete, which I think it's unfair and not inclusive. By banning gender segregation, everyone can compete. Makes it more interesting in my opinion.
Well, I think we're on a forum where the best moments happen when one learns. If I was to know everything why would I even bother posting here? I'm here to read posts from people who are more knowledgeable and help me progress. If I've missed a post answering my question, then tie me to a cross and burn me in hell? I don't get your point.
If it takes 2 years on hormone therapy then I think that's the answer to this situation.
EDIT; How does me asking how long it takes for hormone therapy to change a body fear mongering? This is exactly why I was hesitant to enter this discussion.
Last edited:
Should we ban genetically gifted men to compete with other average men to give them a chance to win too?
Weight class is more important than sex in this regard.
By banning gender segregation you eliminate women from being able to compete for top spots almost entirely... might as well just defund all women's high school sports and tell all those little girls that look up to Serena Williams that she actually sucks because she would lose easily to any random top 200+ ranked male in tennis. This is the world you would create. Virtually devoid of any woman sport role models entirely. No thank you.
Weight class is not more important, look at the comparison of woman and male lifters at the same weights. My goodness. It's a huge difference.
Feels like I'm taking crazy pills in this thread with some of ya'll.
Last edited:
Marion Jones, who is 178cm tall and weight about 68-70kg ran the 100m sprint in 10,65 seconds. Nesta Carter who is 178cm and 69-70kg ran the 100m sprint in 9,78.
Your question was very valid. But that example just frames trans people as completely unreasonable.
I was also under the impression you read most of he thread since you argued the discussion suffered from the mod decision.
But I might have been needlessly hostile so I apologize for that.
Thank you for that. I was trying to give an example to figure out exactly how long it does take ones body to change from hormone therapy. If my example came across poorly I do apologize as well.
You're the one who said it, so please, show examples. If you're gonna make a sweeping statement like that, I would love for you to back it up.
User Banned (1 Week): Concern trolling over a series of posts, disingenuous commentary, account still in junior phase
I disgree. I think by segregating by height/weight/mass, all genders ( cis men, cis women, trans and non-binary) will fairly compete and more so it's inclusive.
I also think by saying men are better than women in sports, you're in a way supporting transphobic people because that's the same logic they use.
Fair enough but that could just mean that Nesta is a better athlete than Marion, and not that men are better than women. I'm pretty sure there are examples where a woman with the same attributes is faster than a man with similar attributes.
Are you just not reading the facts being presented to you in this thread? Science and fact. These are not made up numbers being posted here showing you the comparison of women and men in sports (even at the same weight). And omg the last part of your post.... I can't anymore.
The only one being regressive here is you by refusing to read what's being given to you. You want to turn back the clock on women's hard fought places in sports and in society as role models for little girls.
This is not a matter up for debate. The results between men and women competing in the same sport speak for themselves. There's nothing to "disagree" to here unless you're just ignoring the data.
And no, this is not coming from a place of transphobia. For one thing, trans women are women, not men. If their hormonal levels are similar enough to that of cis women then the gap between them narrows significantly. The issue with all of this is what exactly determines the parameters to make it fair for all women competing, which we need more data for (which won't happen if trans women are banned from competing in the first place).
While it might be that Nesta was just purely better, but there are other woman runners who fit the description I described. Christine Arron is also about the same height and weight as Nesta and she ran 100m slower than Marion. I just can't understand how you can argue against the fact that there are physiological differences between men and women.
But that doesn't change the fact that I also think that there would probably be women athletes who would be quite comparable to male athletes if we poured resources and encouraged women to pursue athletic professions as much as we did men. I can't say there isn't an woman Usain Bolt out there who just doesn't run because she's not encouraged to do so. But with the facts at hand it seems men perform better at sports that are physical.
American Football? Just imagine a 5 foot 11 inch , 190 lb RB Saquon Barkley in high school colliding with defensive line Berlin Montepeque who is 5 foot 6 inch at 150 lbs. Don't think she would stand a chance in hell in blocking him.
