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Oct 28, 2017
1,865
Am I missing something? The mod post first says that there is a study by Joanna Harper that "showed that as testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women experience a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and other physical characteristics". Reading the study though it is just a review of marathon times by 8 runners before and after transition and didn't measure physical characteristics.

Then the post mentions that there are additional studies to collaborate Joanna Harpers study but the Cosmos article doesn't actually mention any.

Then the third study isn't really a study but a literature review that cites the previous studies.

You are right in the sense that the science isn't actually settled on this issue. Apart from the frequently-cited 'bone density' and 'muscle mass' issues, there are also questions of quadricep-angles, bone structure differences and the like. However, even in the latter cases, it's completely unclear whether men have a substantial biomechanical advantage simply by virtue of the shape of their pelvis - or, at least, whether it offers an advantage which falls outside standard natural deviation between competitors in the current female divisions.

In any case, the most objectionable aspect of this is really just the laziness. It's relatively clear that the US IPF affiliate hasn't taken a scientific approach to the issue at all and is simply trying to circumvent the issue by citing the standard objections. It's also a bit of a laugh given the widespread usage of PEDs in the sport.
 

thebagel1

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
359
User Banned (1 Month): Transphobia. Ignoring staff post. Account in junior phase.
People out here getting banned for stating facts..........
 
Dec 12, 2017
4,652
Yeah, getting rid of gender divisions is not a solution at all. It's too idealistic. If there's anything frivolous I've learned from transitioning, it's why women's and men's sports are divided. My baseline strength is pathetic now, to the point that I'm legitimately worried about mens' ability to throw me around at their convenience.
Yeah, getting rid of gender changes would be devastating to female athletes cis or trans. It's ridiculous.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,079
Halifax, NS
From study #2 in the OP:

musclemass.jpg


Testosterone deprivation/treatments clearly do have effects in decreasing/increasing muscle mass to a large degree, and there is some overlap naturally, but XY after deprivation still has a wide range above XX before treatment.

While it's too low of a number of subjects to take any hard conclusions from it, if these results stayed consistent when scaling the study into the hundreds or thousands of participants, it would show it's "possible" that a male to female transition could maintain a muscle mass higher than ciswomen who won the genetic lottery.

It's own conclusion of letting them compete with women is still with the caveat that we have to accept a level of arbitrariness when it comes to how much muscle mass plays into performance. It's more "fair" for transwomen to compete with cis women, from the transwomen's perspective, but that study shows there's still a chance they will have the genetic advantage that a ciswoman couldn't have possibly achieved naturally.

PS. The "let the women compete with the men" group can take a look at the overlap between untreated XX and XY and tell me how that would even be remotely fair. The gendered divisions exist for a reason.
 

Nephtis

Banned
Dec 27, 2017
679
I wish there was a bigger study out there to view the merits of either argument (make and female physical features) in the sports arena.

Without the inclusion of trans folk to gather said data though we will be limited to a tiny scope that doesn't answer anything and just gives fodder for a lot of arguing.

I rather let trans folk be let in, and then after some time when enough and concrete data is had, make a decision whether segregating trans folk is warranted.
 

Fakto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
151
Fact #1: There is no question that, at a professional level by Olympic records, men are more physically able than women.
Fact #2: A Transgender from male to female, is no longer a man, is in fact a woman.
Fact #3: Fiscally transitioning is not done overnight, it's a process and by accounts that I read the timeframe varies from person to person.
Fact #4: Anabolic steroids, which increase testosterone and epitestosterone, are banned in most sports.

The way I see it is that, even when the androgens levels and ratios is just a part of the transition, it plays a big role in physical performance (hence the ban on the substances).That being said, it should exist a more logic, scientific and empathic way of approaching this matter than a BAN, but going with a test route is a slippery slope, as SweetNicole points out: "If the concern is that there should be "fair" competitions, then any form of genetic advantage should be banned across the board." And that's is a big No-No from me.

The question is, what to do or don't do while all the sports associations figures out the new rules.
A BAN is not a rule, is a lack of trying. Not doing anything is not that good either.

EDIT: and even if the associations decide to wait for a while to getter data of transgenders competing as Nephtis suggests, it should be acknowledged, so it can't be used as a weapon to hurt the Transgender's collective.

EDIT2: Actually, double thinking about this, women transitioning to men present a way more complicated case for sports rules. Since testosterone injections is core to their transition, but there are at the same time banned from sports, calculating the proper threshold imposes a challenge, ethical and other wise.

EDIT3: Zornack points out the Olimpic ruling of testosterone acceptable levels, witch I wasn't aware.
 
Last edited:
Staff Post: Reminder to stay on topic

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,710
United States
Official Staff Communication
Please remember from the staff post in the OP:
If you have questions on this modpost or policy, please contact one of our mod captains (@B-Dubs, @Mist, @Hecht) directly. Thanks.

Do not use this thread to discuss the thread policy itself.
 

Juna

Member
Nov 26, 2017
235
I have seen this image cited before, but without the study. It's important to note that the measuresment are for the same people. So you can't actually conclude anything about how this would be in comparison to the whole population. More importantly you can see that the strongest trans woman after HRT was only about as strong as the strongest trans men before HRT.
Also there wasn't a single cis woman involved in this study. Please be a bit more careful about that.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,079
Halifax, NS
I have seen this image cited before, but without the study. It's important to note that the measuresment are for the same people. So you can't actually conclude anything about how this would be in comparison to the whole population. More importantly you can see that the strongest trans woman after HRT was only about as strong as the strongest trans men before HRT.
Also there wasn't a single cis woman involved in this study. Please be a bit more careful about that.

That's why I said we need studies in the scales of thousands, rather than these small ~20 person studies to really get a better grasp of how the range works.

It's ultimately still not correct to say the science on this is settled, and to cite studies that don't come to that same conclusion. They simply provide more evidence in favor of transwomen competing with ciswomen.
 

Juna

Member
Nov 26, 2017
235
That's not what you said at all. This study if scaled and still having the same result would show that trans woman after HRT would fall into the female strength range. Just with a higher mean, which as the study also shows might be due to being taller in the mean.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Gendered divisions don't exist for a good reason. The appropriate thing to do would be to have a women's division and an open division. If a woman can compete in an open division, she should be able to take part.

Also, why are there gendered divisions for things like accuracy? Stuff like that reeks of pseudoscience.
 

meowdi gras

Member
Feb 24, 2018
12,610
It seems too difficult for the ignorant to grasp that there would be more studies to analyze if only sports leagues would stop outlawing us from competing.

Alas, I suppose the self-perpetuating nature of such a status quo is simply too convenient to not advocate.
 

Zornack

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,134
Gendered divisions don't exist for a good reason. The appropriate thing to do would be to have a women's division and an open division. If a woman can compete in an open division, she should be able to take part.

Also, why are there gendered divisions for things like accuracy? Stuff like that reeks of pseudoscience.

Accuracy? You mean like archery? I found this post on the subject.

Any sport in which physical strength is a factor men will dominate in due to having ten to twenty times more testosterone. An open division would just end up being a de facto men's division.
 

Elderly Parrot

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Aug 13, 2018
3,146
Gendered divisions don't exist for a good reason. The appropriate thing to do would be to have a women's division and an open division. If a woman can compete in an open division, she should be able to take part.

Also, why are there gendered divisions for things like accuracy? Stuff like that reeks of pseudoscience.
Are trans women allowed in both divisions I'm confused
 

Squarehard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
25,829
Some of the people that are questioning the bans need to understand something.

The biggest difference you need to keep in mind about some of these posts is between, coming into a thread misinformed but asking questions in an effort to gain clarification and further the discussion, and making misinformed statements in an attempt to clarify/re-enforce your already misinformed stance.

It's fine if you're not sure, or make it clear that your stance is based on ignorance, but don't then start stating your stance as fact, and then pushing it onto other people as if you're an expert on it without providing context to push the discussion forward. Some of you are just making crass statement without any intent to actually have a conversation about the topic.

There's clearly space to discuss this for people who might be ignorant on the topic, but if some of those people aren't willing to discuss it with an open mind, and grow from the discussion, then it's a whole different story, and that should not be acceptable by any means.
 

Fakto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
151
Also, why are there gendered divisions for things like accuracy? Stuff like that reeks of pseudoscience.

There might be a better explanation than this "theory". For example, by dividing by gender you get 6 crowned athletes instead of just 3 if it was mixed genders. I believe it would actually be more practical for sports associations to have it mixed, but they don't do it in other to get more participants overall ... probably.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
People just need to ignore the drive-bys and report them, giving them attention is exactly what they want.
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
It seems too difficult for the ignorant to grasp that there would be more studies to analyze if only sports leagues would stop outlawing us from competing.

Alas, I suppose the self-perpetuating nature of such a status quo is simply too convenient to not advocate.
That's a good point.
But how would you regulate that? For example, let's say you let them compete. Do their results count or are they under provision?
Or do you let their results count and in the meanwhile use their results and other results as study material and make a decision when there is a concensus what the result be and if the results lead to viewing things in another light. Would you be ok that their results be removed from the board.
It is a complex thing in some ways and simple in others.
One thing is for sure everybody has the right to compete and sport.
 

GrandHarrier

Member
Oct 25, 2017
300
Please forgive me ignorance on this specific part of the topic;

In a world where trans and cis are being treated as equal to their gender, when would that equality take place? I've read some of these linked studies and there is alot of talk about testosterone levels and the like; Is eligibility based on testosterone levels then? i.e. if a mtf transition has occurred with the appropriate reduction in testosterone / muscle mass loss, is that the determining factor? Or is eligibility at any point that one has said they are now mtf / ftm etc. I'm not trying to make the "Just say you're a woman and immediately compete" arguement, but specifically curious about at what point a gendered sport would fairly say that a transition has occurred and thus the individual should fairly be allowed to compete in the gendered division. A doctors review or something of the sort?

Thanks.
 

meowdi gras

Member
Feb 24, 2018
12,610
That's a good point.
But how would you regulate that? For example, let's say you let them compete. Do their results count or are they under provision?
Or do you let their results count and in the meanwhile use their results and other results as study material and make a decision when there is a concensus what the result be and if the results lead to viewing things in another light. Would you be ok that their results be removed from the board.
It is a complex thing in some ways and simple in others.
One thing is for sure everybody has the right to compete and sport.
Exact same rules which prevail for our cis counterparts. Unless you also hold black/taller/extraordinarily gifted cis women to the same "provisional" standard, which is about the height of absurdity.

The hilarious (and infuriating) irony here is, when all is said and done, history will show that this "controversy" is but a lot of handwringing over nothing.
 

Chixdiggit

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,447
It seems too difficult for the ignorant to grasp that there would be more studies to analyze if only sports leagues would stop outlawing us from competing.

Such a great point.
The biggest hurdle to this will always be the competitors though. I have competed in hundreds if not thousands of times in a sport that is always divided by weight and gender. Win or lose I just love the sport and I honestly do not really feel any different after a win or a loss. In fact many wins just have me feeling bad for my opponent because they lost. However most athletes are not this way. Many want to win at all costs and it means everything to them. A loss for some equals hate, jealousy, depression, and every excuse imaginable from poor officiating to my opponent was born a male.
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
Exact same rules which prevail for our cis counterparts. Unless you also hold black/taller/extraordinarily gifted cis women to the same "provisional" standard, which is about the height of absurdity.

The hilarious (and infuriating) irony here is, when all is said and done, history will show that this "controversy" is but a lot of handwringing over nothing.
But you said "that there would be more studies to analyze if only sports leagues would stop outlawing us from competing ". Wouldn't that mean that those additional studies show if there is or isn't a benefit? Why would you otherwise state that by participating you have more study material?
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
From study #2 in the OP:

musclemass.jpg


Testosterone deprivation/treatments clearly do have effects in decreasing/increasing muscle mass to a large degree, and there is some overlap naturally, but XY after deprivation still has a wide range above XX before treatment.

While it's too low of a number of subjects to take any hard conclusions from it, if these results stayed consistent when scaling the study into the hundreds or thousands of participants, it would show it's "possible" that a male to female transition could maintain a muscle mass higher than ciswomen who won the genetic lottery.

It's own conclusion of letting them compete with women is still with the caveat that we have to accept a level of arbitrariness when it comes to how much muscle mass plays into performance. It's more "fair" for transwomen to compete with cis women, from the transwomen's perspective, but that study shows there's still a chance they will have the genetic advantage that a ciswoman couldn't have possibly achieved naturally.

PS. The "let the women compete with the men" group can take a look at the overlap between untreated XX and XY and tell me how that would even be remotely fair. The gendered divisions exist for a reason.
This is the same conclusion I drew. And when talking about the elite of the elite, all it takes is a small edge for an athlete to set themselves apart.
 

Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
I know your banned but it seems like you didn't even read the mod edit which had the facts.
Those facts do seem to have been presented in a misleading way - probably my mistake by the mod, but nonetheless the conclusions drawn in the edit don't appear to match those of the actual study.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,617
Brazil
Please forgive me ignorance on this specific part of the topic;

In a world where trans and cis are being treated as equal to their gender, when would that equality take place? I've read some of these linked studies and there is alot of talk about testosterone levels and the like; Is eligibility based on testosterone levels then? i.e. if a mtf transition has occurred with the appropriate reduction in testosterone / muscle mass loss, is that the determining factor? Or is eligibility at any point that one has said they are now mtf / ftm etc. I'm not trying to make the "Just say you're a woman and immediately compete" arguement, but specifically curious about at what point a gendered sport would fairly say that a transition has occurred and thus the individual should fairly be allowed to compete in the gendered division. A doctors review or something of the sort?

Thanks.

Yes, for sports it is understandable that max testosterone levels have to be manageable, even if only for dopping reasons.

Oficial IOC guidelines is 2 years within the hormone levels acceptable for the desired gender. Should be noted that right now IOC accepts hormone levels slightly above the average for regular cis woman because the pro sport average is above it, but when genital surgery has happened those levels become much smaller than that in general because even in cis women testosterone is produced both in the ovaries and in the adrenal gland ...

I remember reading that the athlete needs to provide a few blood tests proving the hormones have been low for a while

This is the same conclusion I drew. And when talking about the elite of the elite, all it takes is a small edge for an athlete to set themselves apart.

And if you are going to freak out about things that give them a small edge than you have to ban 75% of the medal owners and 100% of the world record settlers
 

meowdi gras

Member
Feb 24, 2018
12,610
But you said "that there would be more studies to analyze if only sports leagues would stop outlawing us from competing ". Wouldn't that mean that those additional studies show if there is or isn't a benefit? Why would you otherwise state that by participating you have more study material?
So medals and worthless statistics are more sacrosanct than equality and freedom? If there's anything more mixed up, it's the priorities.
 

Koo

Member
Dec 10, 2017
1,863
How so? Read the mod edit before you make a fool of yourself.
Don't understand these people who come into this thread to fall on their swords with such low effort posts. You'd think if they were going to get banned they'd at least make some point about whatever bullshit they believe. Just an absolute coward's death.
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
Weight and height seem like better tiers of competition than gender. If one 5'9 person weighing 170 lbs can lift more than another person weight 5'9 person weighing 170 lbs, that seems like a fair comparison. Banning trans women to uphold the gender division is just compounding sexism with transphobia.
 

Waddle Dee

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,725
California
If anything, situations like this show how effective concern trolling is on the general public. There's no reason to ban transgender people from partaking in the sports they want to but people are able to make it sound like a problem with bs claims about people "cheating" the system. Anyone with an actual passion for the sports would like more people to participate.

At this point, I wonder... so fucking what if it does? Minorities keep getting shit in 9/10 of gaming communities just for being who they are, so what's is the problem that they have a place that finally they can avoid reading the usual shit racist/sexist/homophobic "opinions"?

I dunno about other people but banning this shit to me is something to be proud, instead of allowing it for the sake of "discussion".

Agreed. We don't need those kinds of people posting here. If anything, I wish mods were stricter. Too many little slap on the wrists that don't amount to anything.

I was in the same boat. Interesting to see research on this.

This is going to be a long and bumpy road though.
This reminds me of in Ireland ( I'm not sure other countries have this) there is a ban on gay people giving blood despite no evidence to any danger.
it's just total bullshit.

That's an insane law... Holy shit, how ignorant can people be?
 

offtopic

Banned
Nov 21, 2017
2,694
Exact same rules which prevail for our cis counterparts. Unless you also hold black/taller/extraordinarily gifted cis women to the same "provisional" standard, which is about the height of absurdity.

The hilarious (and infuriating) irony here is, when all is said and done, history will show that this "controversy" is but a lot of handwringing over nothing.
What does skin pigment have to do with athletic performance?

Anyways, as a scientist and a science communicator (and someone who has competed in many athletic disciples) I find the links in the OP to be thin evidence at best and even then it only relates to a specific endeavor (distance running) in which gender differences aren't as great in the first place (% differences to begin with are much smaller than power based sports). Joanna makes some great points in her study to this effect and even says that sports like basketball where height is critical are another issue altogether. Hopefully her study can inspire peers to look more closely at performance data across different disciplines with great sample sizes and greater control.

However, I do not think that we need lab tests to show that trans people are equivalent before allowing them to compete in their chosen category (the people claiming it is unfair should be providing the evidence). The thing with sports is that they are the ultimate meritocracy...results will eventually bear out if this is fair or not. Indicators that would demonstrate it isn't fair:

1. Trans women dominate in sports at a statistically impossible level without some sort of advantage (so very low % trans women but high % success). If most world records and medals are going to trans women that indicates a fairness issue aside from any specific physiological explanation.
2. Trans men not capable of competing at a statistically equal level with naturally born men. If hormones are everything then they should do fine.

Unless we start seeing the real-world evidence there is no reason to ban anyone. What those statistical thresholds might be I do not know but would have to always give the benefit of the doubt to the individual (so we can't scream 'unfair' just because one or two athletes is having great success...context and aggregate statistics matter).
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
So medals and worthless statistics are more sacrosanct than equality and freedom? If there's anything more mixed up, it's the priorities.
Ok. It is very important that everyone can sport. But if I can read it correct. You would rather have a competition without standings? A bit like the olympic spirit. It is more important to compete then to win.
 
Last edited:

Driggonny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,170
Gendered divisions don't exist for a good reason. The appropriate thing to do would be to have a women's division and an open division. If a woman can compete in an open division, she should be able to take part.

Also, why are there gendered divisions for things like accuracy? Stuff like that reeks of pseudoscience.
I wholeheartedly disagree. There's plenty of areas where divisions exist only because society likes splitting men and women by default, but you can't tell me that not having a women's and men's division for tennis would be a good thing. I only use this sport as an example because it's what I've played my whole life and I've been on both sides of that line (as you know). The game has become so physical that It would not be fair to anyone with a majority estrogen in their system. I don't think denying that helps anyone.
 

Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
How are they presented in a misleading way?
The conclusion drawn in the mod edit - "The study showed that as testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women experience a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and other physical characteristics." - is a very, very broad one that's not really borne out in evidence. The study relates to less than ten people in a single sport, and the study makes clear that conclusions such as the one in the mod edit can't reliably be drawn from it.
 

MonoStable

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,051
Weight and height seem like better tiers of competition than gender. If one 5'9 person weighing 170 lbs can lift more than another person weight 5'9 person weighing 170 lbs, that seems like a fair comparison. Banning trans women to uphold the gender division is just compounding sexism with transphobia.

What if men 5'9 and 170 lbs dominated the class then? Why would women or trans compete? I'm pretty sure that's what would happen especially in power lifting.
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
What does skin pigment have to do with athletic performance?

Anyways, as a scientist and a science communicator (and someone who has competed in many athletic disciples) I find the links in the OP to be thin evidence at best and even then it only relates to a specific endeavor (distance running) in which gender differences aren't as great in the first place (% differences to begin with are much smaller than power based sports). Joanna makes some great points in her study to this effect and even says that sports like basketball where height is critical are another issue altogether. Hopefully her study can inspire peers to look more closely at performance data across different disciplines with great sample sizes and greater control.

However, I do not think that we need lab tests to show that trans people are equivalent before allowing them to compete in their chosen category (the people claiming it is unfair should be providing the evidence). The thing with sports is that they are the ultimate meritocracy...results will eventually bear out if this is fair or not. Indicators that would demonstrate it isn't fair:

1. Trans women dominate in sports at a statistically impossible level without some sort of advantage (so very low % trans women but high % success). If most world records and medals are going to trans women that indicates a fairness issue aside from any specific physiological explanation.
2. Trans men not capable of competing at a statistically equal level with naturally born men. If hormones are everything then they should do fine.

Unless we start seeing the real-world evidence there is no reason to ban anyone. What those statistical thresholds might be I do not know but would have to always give the benefit of the doubt to the individual (so we can't scream 'unfair' just because one or two athletes is having great success...context and aggregate statistics matter).
Great post and I agree completely.
 

Juna

Member
Nov 26, 2017
235
Then you didn't read the second study that showed exactly the loss in muscle mass.
Also it's something we already know from decades of trans woman undergoing HRT.
 

i-hate-u

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,374
Weight and height seem like better tiers of competition than gender. If one 5'9 person weighing 170 lbs can lift more than another person weight 5'9 person weighing 170 lbs, that seems like a fair comparison. Banning trans women to uphold the gender division is just compounding sexism with transphobia.

So what, men and woman can compete in the same class as long as they're both the same height/weight?
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,617
Brazil
What does skin pigment have to do with athletic performance?

It is more related to place of birth, not skin pigment but it is not uncommon for black people to OWN long distance running for example, usually because of blood oxygenation above average.
And the original article in the op mentions that it is not uncommon that bone density of black cis woman is much bigger than those of white cis woman or even white cis man
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/82/2/429/2823249
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1863580/

The thing with sports is that they are the ultimate meritocracy

Regular sunday sports maybe.
Olympic medal level sports? Nope.
Genetic lotery can do a lot to destroy that meritocracy. I mean have you SEEN michael phelps ? =P
 

teacup

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
686
I think one of the issues is a lot of bad faith arguing from regressives of "but they'll just pretend to be girls!!" Which is about as dumb as the bathroom argument.

Another issue is that people are tying up the social argument of "but they are that gender now" to a physiological / physical based competition where, if they get it wrong, will actually just destroy it for cis women.

Now maybe this is acceptable. Maybe the differences aren't that bad. What I find frustrating is that there is definitely some bad faith arguing going on the other side here, including this study which we are told (I even just accepted upthread) as "settled science" then realised one of them studied less than ten people and the person conducting the study had a direct benefit in the results going the way they did.

I think blanket bans without backup are ridiculous like this case. But I do feel being cautious (and more importantly- fund wide studies into this!) is better and also perhaps having a wider social discussion on the matter. Perhaps cis women need to become more accepting of trans women? Perhaps trans women need to understand how it feels for cis women in this matter too? I've heard both claims be made quite a lot, and not just in sport.