And women's achievements would be valued less because they are viewed in relation to male achievements.
Not a good idea.
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USA Powerlifting bans all trans women from competing as women (Read OP)
- Thread starter Deleted member 32679
- Start date
Not a good idea.
1: They have the whole internet to read up on this.
2: Ain't my job to educate these fools.
You're assuming that men would be the ones setting the bar and that no women would be particularly competitive, with women all naturally sinking to lower and thus "lesser" tiers. Which hey, may or may not be correct... but it brings up a good point: Unfortunately, a lot of people already view women's divisions as essentially being a "B" tier that's below the men's divisions.
So I think performance-based tiers wouldn't have any negative impact on how women's achievement are viewed, and could only have the potential of their achievements being valued more.
Long distance swimming is the only athletics based sport where women are even remotely competitive with men. I love women's sports, but let's not pretend that the performance is similar.
And if they aren't competitive, they'll sink to lower performance tiers. Which is basically the status quo, as most people already view women's divisions as less performant relative to men's. And it would neatly solve any concerns over where transgender athletes belong.
User banned (1 week): transphobia, ignoring the modpost
Idk much about powerlifting but some sports are the only places that I can see any kind of separation can be reasonable. Like atleast combat sports should be separated. Atleast for the foreseeable future, Just because there's so many variables that they'd have to figure out
In most sports this would be the case. In some even to the extent that the best women compete outside the pro-sphere. In Football(Soccer) this would definitely be the case. In Europe, usually the first two divisions in every country are considered professional. The best women's teams would compete in considerably lower divisions.(4th-5th)
Sport is supposed to be about entertainment, spirit, excitement and pushing ones own limits. Arbitrarily setting the rules of competition so that the spectacle only revolves around men is a bad idea.
For everything except sports, the agreed solution by the trans community is "when the person is ready"
For sports, knowing that testosterone is a dopping element, we usually agree with the IOC for everything.
Your wording is weird so I will explain some basic terms so we are on the same page :
Trans men (assigned female at birth who is a man)
Trans women (assigned male at birth who is a woman)
Trans men for the IOC regulation only need to reach regular testosterone levels since the testosterone power is instant.
Trans women need to wait at least 2 years to compete so the lack of testosterone in the body did all.
The IOC regulations are simple. I don't understand what you mean by inconsistently applied because they are literally applied the same way.
If you mean that "for basketball it changes if the person is taller" than there are a bazillion of different genetic diferences that also makes the person taller.
The IOC people asks for 2 years because your mileage may vary so just to be sure.
And yes, lack of testosterone kills any upper body muscle you have, just look at any transition timeline for anyone that had muscles
...there are lots of life experiences from people right on this thread ... for example :
We had people talking about the reason for the ban being "common sense" and talking about how a ban prevents men from posing as women to sneak into women's divisions. I'm going to play the world's smallest violin for the people who can't make those arguments anymore, as well as the people who willfully or stupidly didn't read the mod post.
The point is to prevent bigoted ignorance from being propagated. This isn't a classroom, and they even got an exhaustive list of resources that demonstrate the evidence that suggests the ban is without basis. A drive-by agreement with unfounded claims only spreads dangerous misinformation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure bans don't prevent you from reading the forum. You just can't post.
They do. You have to logout which does make catching up on longer threads difficult.
My bad, thanks for the correction.
The information they need is the very first thing they would see when opening the thread. It's a choice to be stupid after that. Fuck them.
The "READ OP" part they are being banned now from is for not reading a huge text that includes all sorts of links for that ignorance to not be called ignorance.
Before the mod post, those same links were posted before a single ban was given.
Alright... Maybe I'm too idealistic or ignorant, as I don't personally follow or have any interest in sports. I'm just trying to think of a solution that makes everyone happy and snuffs out any and all room for unfair misconceptions regarding an athlete's capabilities based on sex, race, or any other characteristic. A fool's errand, perhaps.
I still think it could work though, even if the implementation needs to be a bit more complicated. Maybe the different performance tiers can be separated out into men/women's based on the % of each in the tier? So for example, you'd effectively have two A tiers... a Men's A tier which would be the highest performance tier that has 50%+ men, and a Women's A tier which would be the highest performance tier that has 50%+ women.
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I mean the 7th post is banned. I don't think that's true, but if I'm wrong, fair enough.
When I was a shithead 13 year old, I used homophobic slurs. By the time I was a slightly-less-shitty 17 year old, I had stopped. I sure as hell didn't do that because my teachers told me to in a classroom. It was because I learned to be better from my peers. Someone making an ignorant post here is probably going to find themselves unable to see any of those resources the very next time they come back to check the site.
The people being banned either didn't read the educational material offered to them in the very first post, or they decided that learning was stupid.
The problem is that it is a matter much simpler than people make it to be.
Internal prejudice makes it a complex matter, but everything points to being pretty simple
"This is just common sense to me. I'm all for people being who they want to be but in this sort of competition there's a very clear unfair advantage. This is the right call."
actual article in the op which I quoted in my 3rd post :
It is NOT a clear unfair advantage. And common sense means bullshit
There are so many bans because people were making transphobic statements.
You're centering this argument around you and the things you said while ignoring the entire fact that what you said, and what a lot of people say in this thread are harmful and do have consequences for people. The information is there in the OP, the article, as well as a post on the first page summing up a lot of research, as well as a mod post. It's all there for you to learn, and it's not going anywhere whether these people are banned or not. At this point, people who come into the thread saying "This is a good decision" with nothing else are choosing to remain ignorant, and it's not up to us to guide people by the hand while they're slapping us in the face at the same time.
Please consider it from the other point of view of the people who are actually impacted by what's being said in this thread.
Fallon Fox she is trans but she did not fight in the UFC but MMA and yes she did beat up someone badly in a fight which lead to huge controversy and she was denied fighting in womens UFC.
All that I am contending is that it would be far better to silence those voices from the conversation WITHOUT removing their access to the very information that could make them take even the smallest step toward becoming a better person. Is it really that hard to imagine someone getting reprimanded for something they said, taking the opportunity to reflect on why that might be, then taking a closer look at the information presented? Maybe it's beyond the current capabilities of this site, but banning from posting alone, or banning from posting in specific threads, should absolutely be a thing.
Thanks. I thought I would have to read until page 4 to 5 to read someone calling him out on this. Seriousely.
Sorry, but I don't get it.
This is Resetera forum and they can do all they want, but you have this in the op "Resetera policy is that anyone concern posting about genetic advantages by transgender women in competitive sports or claiming transgender women have genetic advantages will be treated as transphobia and/or spreading misinformation on a sensitive issue and moderated appropriately "
Ok I get genetic advantages because that's a difficult matter, but are hormones also treated under genetics?
And how can we have a discussion if this is a good rule or a bad rule or something in between if we cannot talk about the physiology of a human being (men and women)?
And why can't there be a discussion where there are so many facets ranging from transgender to the common men to people who have a natural benefit in something?
And I agree it is a complex problem because there are many athletes who work just as hard as anybody but don't get any sportive benefit.
But if it is a to sensitive subject then I will not pursue anymore conversation, because I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. That's not worth it. Certainly not for such a thing that is supposed to be something inclusionary as sport.
Fox was knocked out by Ashley Evans Smith who is a good fighter but total nobody in the UFC. She was never more than a lowest level pro. She had a minute of same thanks to Dana white and Ronda Rousey shitring on her.
So the studies that show it's a what, 2 year time for a transgender woman to have time to reach the regular testosterone/muscle mass for cis women, are these, I suppose for lack of a better term, 'widely accepted'? As in shown across multiple studies? Or are these generally early studies?
I can understand why in something like powerlifting they might be hesitant to allow transgender women -- hopefully this is a 'temporary' ban while they work out a better policy.
The fact that someone set a state record as a transgender woman might be scaring them in a way; they are probably thinking there *might* be an advantage and would rather avoid the backlash of trans women winning if there is. Which is shitty, and it sucks, but hopefully as other organizations allow them to compete they'll update the policy.
I can understand why in something like powerlifting they might be hesitant to allow transgender women -- hopefully this is a 'temporary' ban while they work out a better policy.
The fact that someone set a state record as a transgender woman might be scaring them in a way; they are probably thinking there *might* be an advantage and would rather avoid the backlash of trans women winning if there is. Which is shitty, and it sucks, but hopefully as other organizations allow them to compete they'll update the policy.
There is information in the very first post of this thread that will answer all your questions. Either say what you want to say about the subject or leave because this is fucking annoying.
If someone is saying bigoted things, they should be banned from more than one thread. Again, the information is not going anywhere and was literally there in the OP from the start of the thread in the article, they are free to look at it any time. If they really care, they can still read the sources.
Do you have anything you'd like to say about the actual topic of the thread?
You can't browse this site when you're banned.
I'm checking out here, don't care to derail the thread any further.
There's a private messaging system where you can ask these questions to the staff.
So you're concerned that people who ignored an educational mod post would not be able to pay attention to it?
Genetic advantages imply the hormone they received before transition. In the IOC case it is counting no matter whatever the person went though the wrong puberty or not. Should be noted that in the future most trans woman will not go, reducing even more the arguments of bigots.
In a normal transition for a trans woman, the hormones are completely changed to the regular levels of cis woman. It is not uncommon for testosterone levesl to end lower than regular for cis women since the idea is to kill it's production.
We can have a discussion about it in the same way we can have a discussion about global warming. Every scientific evidence (including the real life experinces of people here on this thread) points to being bullshit.
It is only a complex problem because we live in a transphobic world.
And that is ignoring all the fact that IF IT GAVE AN ADVANTAGE, it would STILL NOT MAKE ANY SENSE for them to ban trans women because
1) the amount of trans people in the world is ridiculoysly small
2) MOST olympic athletes (99% for the medal ones) have some kind of genetic advantage that most people can't have. In other news : tough luck.
That definitely wasn't the case when I was banned, at least on mobile, but good to know if that's changed.
I just want to comment on this. If someone actually ever tried to go this route 99% of sports would be Men only. Dominated only by men. That's not an exaggeration and not a knock on women, just reality. I actually prefer to watch some women sports to men sports like hockey, volleyball, and ping pong, but they couldn't compete. At all.
From olympic sports I can just think of Gymnastics and synchronized swimming where women could compete in their specific events. Think about sports like soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc. No chance for women. Diana Taurasi couldn't even make the cut in the D League. Carli Lloyd couldn't make the cut in the USL III. And I really like both of those ladies' games.
If you think of major contact sports like MMA, boxing, Rugby, Olympic Wrestling, etc there's even less of a chance that women are anywhere even in the middle divisions as per your idea. Gender needs to separate in sports for obvious reason, same as weight for certain sports. The reason some girls can compete with guys in HS wrestling, for example, is because boys are not yet fully developed. A 135lb man is significantly different than a 135lb boy. And one of my favorite wrestlers ever is a female (Maroulis).
Would that be fair? Sure if you want men to dominate all sports, probably the top 10 tiers or whatever.
Even that is not really that competitive when you talk about World championships events. This is the winning and last place from the last worlds.
5K
M - Winning: 54:31.4, 61st: 1:06:01.6
W - Winning: 59:07, 57th: 1:11:55.7
49 Men faster than the winning gold for women's. All over 1 minute faster
10K
M - Winning: 1:51:58.5, 65th: 2:15:41.2
W - Winning: 2:00:13.7, 57th: 2:28:21.8
51 Men faster than the winning gold medal for women's
25K
M - Winning: 5:02:46.4, 25th: 5:49:57.5
W - Winning: 5:21:58.4, 19th: 6:05:20.0
21 Men faster than the winning gold medal for women's
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Thank you for discussing this. And yeah that is right what you are saying.
So you can only compete in the powerlifting competition if you already had surgery? And is there a time that you cannot go into competition after surgery?
But I am beginning to see things clearer now. I think those sporting commitees are not informed enough and also fear because of misinformation and a lack of studies of the matter.
Maybe educate yourself if you want to have a discussion? Why the fuck should any of us be responsible when they have the ability to look at the numerous studies that have been conducted about this very subject?
A way to address this would be to, in conjunction with my previous idea of separating the raw performance tiers into two categories based on whether the majority of athletes in a given tier are male or female, just have a hard policy of maintaining an even 50/50 split of the sexes for the whole league.
But at this point I suppose my idea might be a bit too convoluted, eh?
No one actually reads studies. They wait for someone else to give them the general takeaway of relevant studies.
A lot of misinformation and ignorance occurs in this forum. For example, the recent Common Core thread was full of ignorant posters while a small amount of teachers/tutors who were trying to provide explanation on each page. I dont see why that could not also occur in this discussion. We cannot just tell posters, "go look it up."