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US PoliEra 2021 |OT 3| Rage Against The Manchin
- Thread starter SSF1991
- Start date
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Here's a very real possibility:
1) Biden signs EO canceling student debt
2) Court challenge filed by loan companies or others
3) Courts drag out process months/years
4) Courts eventually rule unconstitutional
5) All debt reestablished in names of holders
How would that not completely turn over government control to Republicans and potentially turn a generation of younger voters away from Democrats?
I swear half of era just wants a left wing Trump. When did pragmatism/reality die, or did it ever actually exist?
Reading these threads makes me worry about democracy in general at times. For all the bashing we gave trump for being a wanna be dictator, a lot here are ok with dems acting the same way, just for policies they like.
And it's every single time too. I think this is like the third thread I've seen today about dems where people go down similar paths. Thankfully this site represents a very small amount of people because pretty scary characteristics if it was a larger group.
Yep. People on the edges just want a dictator that is for their policies it seems. Why have a legislative branch at all at that point.
Yes this as well but the unfounded takes that don't take into account reality just grind my gears. So many people in that thread saying how its proven that Biden can just wipe away student loans when that is explicitly not proven. It's not some grand conspiracy to keep student loans alive, they are figuring out if its even legal which it might not be.
Yeah, wouldn't be surprised given some of the takes on etc, if some people agreed it shouldn't exist.
The extent to which they attempted a minimum wage increase in reconciliation was asking the parliamentarian if they could and the parliamentarian saying no. They didn't go, fuck it we're doing it anyway and get tied up in litigation over it. They consulted with a bureaucrat. It's the same thing we consulting with legal scholars about whether or not they have the power to cancel student debt.
As someone with over 10k of student debt left I would sure love for that to just disappear. But I also don't believe a good way to govern or a good way to preserve a functioning democracy is for the executive to just do whatever the fuck they want at any time, with the outcome determined entirely by the whims of partisan courts some months or years later.
I mean, people on this forum have previously explicitly called for a violent worker's revolution if they can't get what they want via a one vote, one person democracy.
All I'll say is this. BIDEN ran on student debt. I get we can't just EO everything.
But it's not shocking to see people react the way they are to Pelosi's comments. It's not selfish it's just another thing people can post to about "Dems not keeping their promises"
Dems need to get their house in order or they are going to fumble voting rights as well.
But it's not shocking to see people react the way they are to Pelosi's comments. It's not selfish it's just another thing people can post to about "Dems not keeping their promises"
Dems need to get their house in order or they are going to fumble voting rights as well.
Many legal scholars believe it can be cancelled. Most seem to really debate how much can be cancelled.
Blame Congress for ceding their power to the President. They specifically gave the Secretary of Education the ability to cancel debt and/or modify it to zero.
I'm not sure loan companies would have standing to sue. It seems like Congress would have to sue for the President overstepping.
Parliamentarians can be overruled by a majority vote. There would be nothing to litigate.
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So facts dont really matter here? Like I dont get the point of saying he ran on it when we now know cant legally do it. This isnt form some lack of trying.
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Ok, let me say it this way then. There's no good way to properly research this to where you can say for certain how constitutional it is when there's no good precedent. I'm not asking him to do something proven to be done not legal multiple times.
also, right now there just seems to me way to high of a correlation from top Dems on how constitutional they believe it is and how much they want it to happen. I don't believe Pelosi about how sure she is Biden can't do it when she's making laughably bad arguments against it the same sentence. I'd rather the courts figure it out than take their word for it.
The vast majority of Biden's forgiveness is for-profit colleges that actually defrauded people. No matter how much somebody may hate their English BA isn't leading to riches for them, some random liberal arts college in Ohio didn't defraud them.
It's so very clear that so many people here have no idea how politics work.
I cringe every time I see a Biden said X thread or a Pelosi said X thread.
You can't get everything, it's a slow incremental process. It's why I'm starting to get annoyed with AOC.
It really is true. Era is just left-wing /pol/...
Biden has canceled $1.5 billion in student loan debt so far. It doesn't mean broad forgiveness will come soon
The $1.5 billion of student loan debt the Biden administration has canceled so far isn't necessarily related to broader forgiveness.
I dont see how legally you can say only X amount can be cancelled. Wither it all can be or none ide think.
If what you say is true in your second paragraph then there wouldnt even be a debate on if it can be done. I'm guessing ots not so cut and dry.
Lenders 100% would have standing since the would have lost billions of dollars.
I honestly think it's about 50% "Amazon can get me a video game in 3 days, so why does it take so long do do x" and 50% a misunderstanding of how complicated the world actually is. Like, I support single-payer in theory, but it would not be simple as people claim it is.
oh yeah, we need some form of it in this country but the first few years are going to be a total shitshow. We STILL have lawsuits about obamacare coming up.
As The Adder pointed out to me, it has to do with whether or not there are budgetary concerns.
It is true. The Secretary of Education does have that ability. It isn't disputed. What's disputed is if it's a budgetary concern.
Lenders? The US government is the lender and owns something like 92% of student loan debt. The DoE are the ones holding the debt and they would be the ones cancelling it. These are loans that would eligible.
I thought it was a foregone conclusion that Fetterman would run away with the primary? I like Lamb and wish him well.
He better not get his hopes up because Sinema's not going to tank the reconciliation bill.
She'll make a dumb request that something gets trimmed at the margins, get it granted, call it a victory, and then vote yes.
So basically the Manchin playbook.
Indeed. While getting single-payer would be a godsend, it can't be done instantly. Going from the current clusterfuck of a system to one similar to Europe would be a total disaster. It has to slowly settle into it. First with Medicare for All, then work its way to the true goal.
But yeah, our current culture of "instant gratification" does skew how reality works.
Of course, there are things that can be changed about the current process. Like the fact Senators take far too many vacations.
He gets that there's no more room to fight with this particular rearguard action and is retreating to get ready for the next one over the reconciliation bill.
I still think Mitch is mostly clocked out mentally from the Senate at this point, and it's internal D tensions and unified R animus that is driving 99% of the interactions right now.
She's really not, but who knows. I think once the bipartisan bill passes the senate it won't matter what Sinema thinks. There's no chance in hell she actually is the sole one to tank the reconcilliation bill, there's just too much money in that that she can gloat about. It'll be a show and she might get 3.5T cut down a little, but I can't imagine she'll be even allowed to be the sole D vote against it. At least that's what I tell myself so I can sleep at night and not live in constant anger at her public behavior.
Here's the thing - I'd need to do some research, but I bet the actual length of sessions per year for the Senate or House is no different than say, the Swedish Parliament. They just have actual majority governance.
I swear to god the terminally online leftist are the dumbest people on the planet.
Two really strong Dem candidates for the Primary with very contrasting styles. I'd probably go for Lamb given that he is my House Rep. and I've generally been impressed with him though I'd be happy with Fetterman as well. I think Lamb probably has a better chance in the General of the two.
I really want to see Fetterman's personality and size in the senate though. I'm not from PA so him only being state specific keeps us from his national sized personality.
I still remember reading that she did that while facing McConnell.. I still dont understand why she did that while looking at McConnell of all people who is glad that she voted no. My only explanation is that they must talk a lot and that was some sort of sick inside joke between the two.
EDIT: Correction, the full video actually has Mcconnell in the background, Sinema motioned to him to look at her and then pulled that troll move of hers.
Perhaps but Lamb is a strong candidate and once he is fully campaigning we'll see how things turn out.
Only step 1. The bill can still fail!
Honestly, at this point, either Sinema has some absolutely bizarre kinks she's indulging in public or she has thr worst political advisors of all time.
Dude is gonna get bodied by Fetterman, idk why he's bothering.
Dude is gonna get bodied by Fetterman, idk why he's bothering.
I think Fetterman is a favorite because he's a statewide office holder, but I also think his perceived advantage online is much bigger than his actual beginning advantage. Like, I give Fetterman 65/35 odds at the moment.
Bleh, shouldn't risk a ban-bomb replying but I want to spread pragmatic realism in politics if people are interested in actual meaningful change. 😬 hopefully can get through to at least one person.
Like you said, statewide office holder, and he's *very* popular ime. He's got that authentic edge.
I feel like this point needs to be reiterated.
I can only speak for myself here but the reason I'm so concerned about student loans is because it has the feelings of a crisis not unlike the housing crisis in 2008. We have millions of people that agree to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars when they were teenagers without fully realizing the consequences. The only thing people knew was that college was a gateway to success and just getting into one was the hard part. After that, they were willing to sign onto any tuition cost with the idea that they would eventually earn enough to pay it back.
But there was absolutely no consideration of how high of a salary you would need or what kind of monthly payment you'd be facing and lenders never bothered to educate people on those matters. So of course tuition costs skyrocketed and wages didn't which leaves us in the mess we're in. This doesn't just apply to liberal arts majors that are working in coffee shops now. Grad school costs have also soared disproportionate to their respective salaries. I was fortunate to get a relatively high paying job but if I wanted to pay back my loans in 10 years, it would eat up about 70% of my paycheck! Paying monthly to just keep the interest from piling up would still be around 35%! I can't even think about changing careers or taking a pay cut for the foreseeable future.
Thankfully there are income based repayment programs and the interest freeze to help us out but there is an overwhelming sense of dread of what the future holds when those programs run out. Most of my fellow classmates that I still keep in touch with are coasting on IBR for now and hoping that something is done about it in the future. If you've had the experience of making your (still expensive!) IBR monthly payment and just watching the interest pile up on the massive amount you owe, it's understandable to be a little impatient at people that talk about doing something for student loan relief but never deliver.
I can only speak for myself here but the reason I'm so concerned about student loans is because it has the feelings of a crisis not unlike the housing crisis in 2008. We have millions of people that agree to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars when they were teenagers without fully realizing the consequences. The only thing people knew was that college was a gateway to success and just getting into one was the hard part. After that, they were willing to sign onto any tuition cost with the idea that they would eventually earn enough to pay it back.
But there was absolutely no consideration of how high of a salary you would need or what kind of monthly payment you'd be facing and lenders never bothered to educate people on those matters. So of course tuition costs skyrocketed and wages didn't which leaves us in the mess we're in. This doesn't just apply to liberal arts majors that are working in coffee shops now. Grad school costs have also soared disproportionate to their respective salaries. I was fortunate to get a relatively high paying job but if I wanted to pay back my loans in 10 years, it would eat up about 70% of my paycheck! Paying monthly to just keep the interest from piling up would still be around 35%! I can't even think about changing careers or taking a pay cut for the foreseeable future.
Thankfully there are income based repayment programs and the interest freeze to help us out but there is an overwhelming sense of dread of what the future holds when those programs run out. Most of my fellow classmates that I still keep in touch with are coasting on IBR for now and hoping that something is done about it in the future. If you've had the experience of making your (still expensive!) IBR monthly payment and just watching the interest pile up on the massive amount you owe, it's understandable to be a little impatient at people that talk about doing something for student loan relief but never deliver.
It's honestly better just to put the ignore list to use if you end up feeling like you're getting worked up. This is still a video game forum and most people aren't open to have their minds changed it seems.
I am hoping at a minimum that the interest rate freezes are made permanent if possible. There is little reason for the student loans to be collecting interest given the government sees increased income via educated peoples salaries are most often higher thus higher tax revenue. I would like to see more of course but that and making student loans forgivable in bankruptcy would be great. I've yet to see an argument why they are not forgivable via bankruptcy.
Does feel like a good idea, got accused of being a... libertarian republican fascist sympathizer who hates helping people for saying it's terrifying that we should throw out all legal authority arguments for the president...
Does feel like a good idea, got accused of being a... libertarian republican fascist sympathizer who hates helping people for saying it's terrifying that we should throw out all legal authority arguments for the president...
I think if there were no interest rates, there'd be no loans given, period. I'm not sure the math of college grads earn more income thus pay more into the govt via taxes works, especially when the highest income earners so frequently evade paying taxes at all!
Joe Biden could do the pragmatic thing that Chuck Schumer keeps asking him to do instead of listening to the unpragmatic thing that Nancy Pelosi just said.
It should be noted that Biden just met with Sinema yesterday. I'm going to go out on a limb and keep my powder dry for now, with the hypothesis that if there wasn't a plan ( or if that conversation went seriously south) something would have leaked out about it by now.
This may require Congress as well.
This.
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