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IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
I suspect history will mainly remember him as one of the most prominent driving forces behind the Iraq war and the pressure campaign leading up to it.
Sure, Rumsfeld deserves some criticism for having lied our country into pointlessly murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and wrecking the lives of millions more.

But to his credit, he also helped popularize standing desks!
Donald-Rumsfeld-Standing-Desk.jpg
 

studyguy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,282
Sure, Rumsfeld deserves some criticism for having lied our country into pointlessly murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and wrecking the lives of millions more.

But to his credit, he also helped popularize standing desks!
Donald-Rumsfeld-Standing-Desk.jpg
Actually he'll be remembered as the sexiest cabinet member of 2002 by People magazine.


Also probably a war monger, but I mean who isn't from that era right?
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
Actually he'll be remembered as the sexiest cabinet member of 2002 by People magazine.


Also probably a war monger, but I mean who isn't from that era right?

Wow, that's horrific.

I know you're being facetious about everyone from that era being a warmonger, but I will say it is rather jarring to go back and read speeches from Al Gore or Bernie Sanders — who in 2002 were among the very few politicians really opposing the war resolution — and see how caveated their opposition was to allow for use of force against Iraq as long as it was multilaterally approved.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,945


Our Bipartisan infrastructure deal brought to you by ExxonMobil. What a fucking disgrace.

Of course they would focus on those 11 because those, with the exceptions of Kelly and Barrasso, are the moderates in each party and thus the most likely to potentially alter the fate of any bill. Isn't that inevitable? Why would they waste their time and money on anyone else?
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
I've been deeply following politics for 20+ years now and what I have learned is this forum is not only extremely progressive (which is great cause so am i) but has zero idea how to win elections or give good political advise anywhere other than strong liberal areas.
True, but honestly neither does the Democratic Party.
 

Plinko

Member
Oct 28, 2017
18,576
With what these heat waves are doing as a result of climate change, the power grids in the country need to be upgraded ASAP. It can be the difference between life and death in a sustained heat wave/ice storm.
 

GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,833
Texas
Eh, Dems struggle mightly in local races. The losses in state level and local races across the country have been staggering over the last couple decades.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
Well right now the party is in control of the legislature and the presidency, and has two liberal senators from GA and AZ and beat a incumbent who got more votes than any incumbent in history...

So yes, they do know how to win elections.
The fact that they squeaked out victories in two states in a historic turnout election year (huge credit to the local state parties there) doesn't erase the absolute disastrous state of the party nationally and their continual losses over the past decade.
 

studyguy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,282
I mean it's a mixed bag. Redistricting as a whole dems got fucking demolished. 2022 we had a number of massive whiffs on state elections. If we weren't staring down the barrel of a GOP congress I'd be on the whole less worried.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,245
The fact that they squeaked out victories in two states in a historic turnout election year (huge credit to the local state parties there) doesn't erase the absolute disastrous state of the party nationally and their continual losses over the past decade.
The Democratic Party is objectively speaking one of the most electorally successful liberal parties in the world.
 

fragamemnon

Member
Nov 30, 2017
6,846
I've been deeply following politics for 20+ years now and what I have learned is this forum is not only extremely progressive (which is great cause so am i) but has zero idea how to win elections or give good political advise anywhere other than strong liberal areas.

I think when the forum zeroes in on critique it does a pretty great job. There was a thread a couple of weeks ago on the bullshit of meritocracy that was great. It calls out things for the sake of them being wrong. Another example, I find a lot of the comments here about Israel outrageous BUT if I look at the thing they are trying to point out , there's a good criticism there and it's better to read it and hear it than just put on the blinders.

But the forum also marinates in those critiques and entangles unrelated ones in a sort of interconnected nihilism, which requires a maximalist/extreme policy response. Those generally aren't good politics if you want to win majorities in elections and in doing so have agency over how change happens.

The other thing the forum does is treat huge swaths of the country's population as irredeemable racists, bigots, and uneducated idiots, who must be politically conquered / subjugated. The Cold Civil War is winnable, they think, Blue Texas is the new Vicksburg and General Abrams will lead a Second March to the Sea to render GOP into a rump regional party incapable of ever winning again. No, this cold civil war is not winnable, and even if it was it doesn't bring the country anywhere closer to being capable of self-governance.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
The Democratic Party is objectively speaking one of the most electorally successful liberal parties in the world.
I'm obviously talking about the modern incarnation of the party. Sure, if you include the new dealers the party's track record is impressive. They haven't really been a liberal party since the 70s, and I don't know how useful comparing them to non-fptp and parliamentary system. Or comparing "liberal" parties, ignoring what that means in the context of their country's political axes. Of course, now we're moving the goalposts and setting up an interminable quotefest because I was stupid enough to take the bait above. Just going to cut it short here. Have a nice day.
 

fragamemnon

Member
Nov 30, 2017
6,846
Another hit piece on a chief of staff doing what they're supposed to. Odd.

I think some parts of the media are committed to the idea that there's always some kind of palace intrigue around Harris. Holdover from the primaries. Once you get locked on with what you want to find, you then go and seek out that sweet sweet confirmation.
 
Feb 14, 2018
3,083
Democrats have won the Presidency in 3 of the last 4 elections, the House in 4 of the last 8, and held the Senate through 5 of the last 8 election cycles. In the past 15 years, federally they are definitely better than their competition at winning elections. And I understand "the Democratic Party" to generally be a federal entity, since each of the state parties are kind of their own thing. I'm not going to use state Dems' successes in VA to argue the point any more than I would expect anyone to use state Dems' failures in FL to argue against it.

Literally everyone knows how to win elections in America because it's extremely easy. Just pander to rural and suburban whites. Their views are largely homogenous and their political power is disproportionately large relative to their number. Obviously that lane is already taken and Dems are instead trying to win by stitching together a diverse coalition of voters with different, and sometimes competing, interests.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
There may be an actual story there around the trip to the border. But to muddy that with, like, the data person who didn't want to relocate being an example of how they can't put an office together, or that quote at the end from a "friend" (some friend, heh) that she needs her anxieties calmed and not fed. What did they really intend to report?
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
I'm obviously talking about the modern incarnation of the party. Sure, if you include the new dealers the party's track record is impressive. They haven't really been a liberal party since the 70s, and I don't know how useful comparing them to non-fptp and parliamentary system. Or comparing "liberal" parties, ignoring what that means in the context of their country's political axes. Of course, now we're moving the goalposts and setting up an interminable quotefest because I was stupid enough to take the bait above. Just going to cut it short here. Have a nice day.

The Democratic Party is the most electorally successful center-left party in the OECD/First World outside of possibly Portugal & Spain. If we had a sane system, they would've held the White House consistently outside of a brief 4 year interregnum for the last 30 years, basically.

Also, the idea the Democratic Party isn't a liberal party that just shows an incredibly blinkered view of the actual American populace and the limits of our electoral system. A "liberal" party by your views would get smashed in Reagan-style landslides by even somebody like Ted Cruz.
 

Darkstar0155

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,164
I think when the forum zeroes in on critique it does a pretty great job. There was a thread a couple of weeks ago on the bullshit of meritocracy that was great. It calls out things for the sake of them being wrong. Another example, I find a lot of the comments here about Israel outrageous BUT if I look at the thing they are trying to point out , there's a good criticism there and it's better to read it and hear it than just put on the blinders.

But the forum also marinates in those critiques and entangles unrelated ones in a sort of interconnected nihilism, which requires a maximalist/extreme policy response. Those generally aren't good politics if you want to win majorities in elections and in doing so have agency over how change happens.

The other thing the forum does is treat huge swaths of the country's population as irredeemable racists, bigots, and uneducated idiots, who must be politically conquered / subjugated. The Cold Civil War is winnable, they think, Blue Texas is the new Vicksburg and General Abrams will lead a Second March to the Sea to render GOP into a rump regional party incapable of ever winning again. No, this cold civil war is not winnable, and even if it was it doesn't bring the country anywhere closer to being capable of self-governance.
Your last two paragraphs are spot on.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
The Democratic Party is the most electorally successful center-left party in the OECD/First World outside of possibly Portugal & Spain. If we had a sane system, they would've held the White House consistently outside of a brief 4 year interregnum for the last 30 years, basically.

Also, the idea the Democratic Party isn't a liberal party that just shows an incredibly blinkered view of the actual American populace and the limits of our electoral system. A "liberal" party by your views would get smashed in Reagan-style landslides by even somebody like Ted Cruz.
Assessing where they fall on the political discretion wasn't a moral judgement, but yes please continue to get riled up everyone you perceive a hidden slight on the Democratic Party.
I think when the forum zeroes in on critique it does a pretty great job. There was a thread a couple of weeks ago on the bullshit of meritocracy that was great. It calls out things for the sake of them being wrong. Another example, I find a lot of the comments here about Israel outrageous BUT if I look at the thing they are trying to point out , there's a good criticism there and it's better to read it and hear it than just put on the blinders.

But the forum also marinates in those critiques and entangles unrelated ones in a sort of interconnected nihilism, which requires a maximalist/extreme policy response. Those generally aren't good politics if you want to win majorities in elections and in doing so have agency over how change happens.

The other thing the forum does is treat huge swaths of the country's population as irredeemable racists, bigots, and uneducated idiots, who must be politically conquered / subjugated. The Cold Civil War is winnable, they think, Blue Texas is the new Vicksburg and General Abrams will lead a Second March to the Sea to render GOP into a rump regional party incapable of ever winning again. No, this cold civil war is not winnable, and even if it was it doesn't bring the country anywhere closer to being capable of self-governance.
Heavy agreement
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
I bet Rumsfeld couldn't do 22 push-ups like my Iowa Dairy Queen mans.
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,496
The fact that they squeaked out victories in two states in a historic turnout election year (huge credit to the local state parties there) doesn't erase the absolute disastrous state of the party nationally and their continual losses over the past decade.
The thing that this misses, and I think it's a very common thing in the media as well, that the Democrats are playing on Hard mode. The Republicans have significant structural advantages in most local elections, the House, the Senate, and the presidency. If the Democrats were really that bad at it, we simply wouldn't win at all.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
The thing that this misses, and I think it's a very common thing in the media as well, that the Democrats are playing on Hard mode. The Republicans have significant structural advantages in most local elections, the House, the Senate, and the presidency. If the Democrats were really that bad at it, we simply wouldn't win at all.
This isn't lost on me, the deck is now ridiculously stacked against Democrats in a multitude of ways. But what is also not lost on me, is that they've spent the past 30 years maneuvering themselves into this position.

Of course the absolute trash humans in the republican party that have stacked the deck against democracy itself are to blame most directly, but they achieved this operating in a political system where the Democratic Party was the only other hegemon, i.e., not in a vacuum.

Look honestly I really am not that interested in litigating the last 30-40 years of the Democrat's history. I made a throwaway joke comment about Democrats uncanny ability to lose winnable elections, which apparently is beyond the pale for some folks here. I think we can all chill out a bit.
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
This isn't lost on me, the deck is now ridiculously stacked against Democrats in a multitude of ways. But what is also not lost on me, is that they've spent the past 30 years maneuvering themselves into this position.

Of course the absolute trash humans in the republican party that have stacked the deck against democracy itself are to blame most directly, but they achieved this operating in a political system where the Democratic Party was the only other hegemon, i.e., not in a vacuum.

Look honestly I really am not that interested in litigating the last 30-40 years of the Democrat's history. I made a throwaway joke comment about Democrats uncanny ability to lose winnable elections, which apparently is beyond the pale for some folks here. I think we can all chill out a bit.

The point is, your inherent point in all your posts, with all the asides about "30 years" or "they're not even a liberal party" is that if the Democrat's had acted more like you act the way you want, they would've won more elections, and thus, the obvious reason, they have to win by thin margins is because they're all sellouts who don't want to do the obvious things that will win them every election, when there's zero actual evidence fort that, outside of Twitter and podcasts.

The other part is this idea that 2016 or 2020 were layup elections, that anybody could've won and since the Democrat's didn't easily win, that's proof they're bad at winning elections. If you're going to make statements about history, you might get some pushback.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
The point is, your inherent point in all your posts, with all the asides about "30 years" or "they're not even a liberal party" is that if the Democrat's had acted more like you act the way you want, they would've won more elections, and thus, the obvious reason, they have to win by thin margins is because they're all sellouts who don't want to do the obvious things that will win them every election, when there's zero actual evidence fort that, outside of Twitter and podcasts.

The other part is this idea that 2016 or 2020 were layup elections, that anybody could've won and since the Democrat's didn't easily win, that's proof they're bad at winning elections. If you're going to make statements about history, you might get some pushback.
Buddy I never typed any of that. You have a very strong tendency across your posts to see everything in the context of Democrats vs Bernie Bros.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Doesn't his background suggest he's a true believer in white supremacy, probably neo-confederacy, etc?

Is he just drinking his own brew at this point?
NSA should not have responded. Everyone knows Tucker is a lying dirtbag and his lies will spread on social media, and eventually die, only surviving in conspiracy loonybin fringes. But now they responded, bringing his lies to mainstream. It also feeds into the whole "conservatives are PeRsECuTeD" conspiracy.
 
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