• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Yeah, offering the police more money is definitely tone-deaf in this environment.

That said, 'defund the police' is not a winning message at the national level. It's probably not a winning message at the local level in most cases, either.
The police in the US is mostly funded on the municipal level, the demands to defund the police are directed at mayors and city councils, not the president.
I don't think Biden need to have a stand on how much and how cities pay their law enforcement, but I think it would be great if Democrats in congress would start moving toward eliminating at least the most problematic federal program that give money and resources to police departments.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
People outright not even reading the Biden statement, then posting demanding things said in the statement. It's incredible.

Calling for police funding to be increased during a massive, sustained protest over racial violence by law enforcement is shockingly tone-deaf. Especially for a candidate with the record on race that Joe Biden has. The public safety portion of most major cities is over half of their total budget. It's not a funding issue.

Biden needs to be careful here, he could see worse turnout among black voters than Hillary had in 2016.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
I'm not talking in the abstract, I'm talking about the actual federal programs that give money to police departments. I'm not sure that I'm familiar with every single one of those programs, but those that I do are all really really bad, and they're the biggest engine of both police militarization.
I think those programs need to be terminated.

Nah, I know you were, and you're right, they're of no use. I just meant in principle, funding the police at a federal level might be a good idea.

City funding altogether is pretty fucked up and in a way that exacerbates police issues.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,729
Federal funding is almost impossible, if only because of the drastic difference between cities and towns. Best you might get is county funding.
 

CrabDust

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,257
Calling for police funding to be increased during a massive, sustained protest over racial violence by law enforcement is shockingly tone-deaf. Especially for a candidate with the record on race that Joe Biden has. The public safety portion of most major cities is over half of their total budget. It's not a funding issue.

Biden needs to be careful here, he could see worse turnout among black voters than Hillary had in 2016.
Who do you think he's talking to to align on policy and drive this messaging? Considering his be present and listen approach the last few months, evidence suggests that black voters and leaders are part of this group.
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,496
So, there is this whole policy dimension to this. Defund the police, in the sense that we should get rid of armed cops for like 95% of what they currently do and split their responsibility amongst more focused services, is a great policy for big municipalities with enough demand for those services that it makes sense to spilt them up like that. What do you do for the burbs and small towns? You need people located locally, because you need short response times, but you also can't possibly fund 'em at the levels you'd need to off the local tax base, and the demand isn't there to justify lots of different specialty services.

There, I think you would see something shaped... a lot like the police. One central organization that handles everything. How do we fix that kind of organization so that it doesn't have the same issues existing police forces do?
Calling for police funding to be increased during a massive, sustained protest over racial violence by law enforcement is shockingly tone-deaf. Especially for a candidate with the record on race that Joe Biden has. The public safety portion of most major cities is over half of their total budget. It's not a funding issue.

Biden needs to be careful here, he could see worse turnout among black voters than Hillary had in 2016.
FWIW, though it's not counted as such, public schools are the biggest share of the pie in most/all cities afaik - doesn't show up on the books like that because the districts are technically independent entities. But yeah, police departments are well funded enough that a reform approach doesn't really necessitate more funding.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Nah, I know you were, and you're right, they're of no use. I just meant in principle, funding the police at a federal level might be a good idea.

City funding altogether is pretty fucked up and in a way that exacerbates police issues.
I think on a philosophical level, it makes sense to fund everything on the federal level.
The fact that rich cities can afford better services than poor ones is something that I think can only be justified from an right wing point of view, or that steampunk movie where cities ate each other (I only seen the trailer).
But that's obviously all talk, changing that would require such profound changes not only in American law but the way Americans think about things.
 

Post Reply

Member
Aug 1, 2018
4,511

Casa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,527
Literally paying someone to lie to you and tell you what you want to hear.

This is why Trump is going to be volcanic when he loses. He's going to have this thought in his head until election night that in reality, he's actually ahead and all the polls are fake.
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,919
More than anything else, my issue with the Biden statement is the stuff about many departments wanting to reform but needing money. A lot of stuff is policy changes, not something you need a ton of money to do. "Stop choking people" does not require a long and expensive training class. At the very least, he should have more in there about departments who will not change, like, for example, the ones publicly kicking the shit out of protesters asking them to be the slightest bit accountable.

It's not a great statement, and nobody has to act like it is. It won't sink the campaign to push him on this a bit.
Departments wanting to reform but not having the funds to do so...is an actual thing. Biden's statement was taking a holistic view of a complex issue and not wanting to scare off those underfunded police departments that also have their own fair share of issues (he essentially blamed Trump for making access to additional funding difficult). The below is an NPR article that actually delved into this subject over 2 years ago.

Essentially, suburban police departments are so budget constrained:
- They can't afford to fire bad apples or officers who have bounced around departments
- They can't afford to hold them accountable because of lack of an ability to solicit independent reviews of inappropriate actions
- Hiring (let alone diverse candidates) and training is challenging when in some IL towns, police officers have to get a second job because the hourly salary is lower than a Wal-Mart employee

"Nothing happened to the officer involved, or to the officer in Dolton who's been involved in five shootings since 2005.

In fact, according to an investigation by WBEZ and the Better Government Association, there are rarely consequences for suburban officers after questionable shootings.

Out of more than a hundred shootings since 2005, no officer has been charged with a crime for any of them. No officers have been disciplined in any way or even ordered for re-training.

Our investigation found only a handful of instances in which a department even did a review
."

www.npr.org

What Happens When Suburban Police Departments Don't Have Enough Money?

Small police departments struggling with high crime and low budgets tend to pay fast-food wages, may employ officers with troubled pasts and can miss out on opportunities to learn from mistakes.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
FWIW, though it's not counted as such, public schools are the biggest share of the pie in most/all cities afaik - doesn't show up on the books like that because the districts are technically independent entities. But yeah, police departments are well funded enough that a reform approach doesn't really necessitate more funding.

That's a fair point, I'm so used to school budgets being separate that I didn't consider them.

Police in many communities are actually overpaid and over-equipped. Their base pay plus overtime plus benefits are much higher than the average resident. That's not bad for a job that only requires a high school diploma, and is safer than many other jobs.

Who do you think he's talking to to align on policy and drive this messaging? Considering his be present and listen approach the last few months, evidence suggests that black voters and leaders are part of this group.

Today's statement is clearly targeted at white moderates.
 

GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,833
Texas
Calling for police funding to be increased during a massive, sustained protest over racial violence by law enforcement is shockingly tone-deaf. Especially for a candidate with the record on race that Joe Biden has. The public safety portion of most major cities is over half of their total budget. It's not a funding issue.

Biden needs to be careful here, he could see worse turnout among black voters than Hillary had in 2016.
That particular part of the statement isn't ideal, no. Obviously with the budgets existing now, the money is there. It would just need to be taken away from the military part, hopefully via breaking union contracts and re-doing them, etc.

But I think it's clear the message is to increase funding on those reforms. Not give more money to shoot more people. Even if in the end, the increase comes from within other parts of the existing budget. But sure, I can see why people would push back on that. But my post was also about some saying something should be in there, when it is literally in the statement.

As for black voters, anecdotal, but my friends and family are excited to vote for him. Seemingly much more so than they were for Clinton. But yes, Biden has more work to do there regardless.
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,496
Departments wanting to reform but not having the funds to do so...is an actual thing. Biden's statement was taking a holistic view of a complex issue and not wanting to scare off those underfunded police departments that also have their own fair share of issues (he essentially blamed Trump for making access to additional funding difficult). The below is an NPR article that actually delved into this subject over 2 years ago.

Essentially, suburban police departments are so budget constrained:
- They can't afford to fire bad apples or officers who have bounced around departments
- They can't afford to hold them accountable because of lack of an ability to solicit independent reviews of inappropriate actions
- Hiring (let alone diverse candidates) and training is challenging when in some IL towns, police officers have to get a second job because the hourly salary is lower than a Wal-Mart employee

"Nothing happened to the officer involved, or to the officer in Dolton who's been involved in five shootings since 2005.

In fact, according to an investigation by WBEZ and the Better Government Association, there are rarely consequences for suburban officers after questionable shootings.

Out of more than a hundred shootings since 2005, no officer has been charged with a crime for any of them. No officers have been disciplined in any way or even ordered for re-training.

Our investigation found only a handful of instances in which a department even did a review
."

www.npr.org

What Happens When Suburban Police Departments Don't Have Enough Money?

Small police departments struggling with high crime and low budgets tend to pay fast-food wages, may employ officers with troubled pasts and can miss out on opportunities to learn from mistakes.
Hm.

The economic incentives around hiring trained - but black-marked - officers are interesting, but ultimately, I think not really all that relevant here, considering the behavior on display by the largest, best-funded police departments in the country. Why do we believe that Dolton PD would act differently if their budget was the size of the NYPD's? The rest... we've seen a lot of training programs that didn't really work precisely because of the institutional rot. Dealing with that has to be step 1, and that doesn't cost that much, in the grand scheme of thigns.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,251
New York City
Departments wanting to reform but not having the funds to do so...is an actual thing. Biden's statement was taking a holistic view of a complex issue and not wanting to scare off those underfunded police departments that also have their own fair share of issues (he essentially blamed Trump for making access to additional funding difficult). The below is an NPR article that actually delved into this subject over 2 years ago.

Essentially, suburban police departments are so budget constrained:
- They can't afford to fire bad apples or officers who have bounced around departments
- They can't afford to hold them accountable because of lack of an ability to solicit independent reviews of inappropriate actions
- Hiring (let alone diverse candidates) and training is challenging when in some IL towns, police officers have to get a second job because the hourly salary is lower than a Wal-Mart employee

"Nothing happened to the officer involved, or to the officer in Dolton who's been involved in five shootings since 2005.

In fact, according to an investigation by WBEZ and the Better Government Association, there are rarely consequences for suburban officers after questionable shootings.

Out of more than a hundred shootings since 2005, no officer has been charged with a crime for any of them. No officers have been disciplined in any way or even ordered for re-training.

Our investigation found only a handful of instances in which a department even did a review
."

www.npr.org

What Happens When Suburban Police Departments Don't Have Enough Money?

Small police departments struggling with high crime and low budgets tend to pay fast-food wages, may employ officers with troubled pasts and can miss out on opportunities to learn from mistakes.
This is why "defund the police" is not a viable campaign slogan or tactic.
 

CrabDust

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,257
Today's statement is clearly targeted at white moderates.
Bc PoC and left of center voters overwhelmingly want the police to be defunded? I'm happy to be wrong on this, but given the limited polling we've seen so far, I don't think the statement is as narrowly targeted as you think.

Anyway, his statement calls to fund reform, he's walking a fine line here. I agree that he should be more forceful in support of those reforms or how the money is spent. If that's not currently enforceable with the federal/local divide, maybe make a case for reforming that as well.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,729
Americans in general are the target of not wanting to defund the cops. Activist positions are not majority positions. That's why they're activists.
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
proto neo fascist sounds like you just don't want to say fascist.
True. But I also get it, because true fascists were/are intensely ideological. Trump is often like an ignorant skinhead who can't explain anything and doesn't know anything but is irresistibly drawn towards cruelty, violence, and the will to dominate.
 

cameron

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
23,823
IQ2n9Af.png


Zeke Miller @ZekeJMiller

New Trump campaign ad proclaims "Great American Comeback"​

4:02 PM - Jun 8, 2020
 

Jmdajr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,534
Trump is gonna Veto any legtslation passed. You can't count on 60% of the Senate doing the right thing.
 

BWoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38,276
Trump trying to use Nixon's strategy doesn't work because Nixon was using it BEFORE he became President not during.

Also, Trump hiring pollsters to just tell him that he's winning is so batshit insane the more you think about it.
 

GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,833
Texas
Trump trying to use Nixon's strategy doesn't work because Nixon was using it BEFORE he became President not during.

Also, Trump hiring pollsters to just tell him that he's winning is so batshit insane the more you think about it.
What did Nixon use in the 1972 election to get re-elected? Was it going against Vietnam protesters and unrest in general?
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,378
What did Nixon use in the 1972 election to get re-elected? Was it going against Vietnam protesters and unrest in general?

He ran on not being George McGovern, essentially. Nixon was VERY popular in his first term. Like, the '72 election map, red is Nixon:

2FQ9WXI.png


Dude won 49 out of 50 states. Which is why it's mind-boggling he got caught trying to cheat.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
No masks:


Alex Isenstadt @politicoalex

SCOOP: Trump to restart rallies within next 2 weeks

A decision that turning point since the coronavirus shut down traditional campaigning this spring.

More >>https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/08/trump-rally-coronavirus-307496 …

4:07 PM - Jun 8, 2020

Oh god, and places like AZ and TX are spiking hard...
There is 0% chance Parscale makes it to November. If even August or so.
Id love to see Trump go through 3 campaign managers before November.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant

Valkyr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,939


Long time coming folks.
Article says he might cling on but at this point if he's not hearing what he wants to hear from anyone then I don't realistically know who is left to bring on besides people he already stabbed in the back so late in the game.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/06/with-bad-poll-numbers-trump-is-thinking-of-replacing-kushner


This article is hilarious. Trump calling his buddies trying to get them to agree with him that all the polls are just wrong. There is no pivot for Trump. He may fire Brad because the numbers are bad but he's only looking for someone to tell him what he wants to hear. There's no pivoting to a unity message for him. He knows 1 song and he will keep playing it while the ship is sinking.
 

BWoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38,276
This article is hilarious. Trump calling his buddies trying to get them to agree with him that all the polls are just wrong. There is no pivot for Trump. He may fire Brad because the numbers are bad but he's only looking for someone to tell him what he wants to hear. There's no pivoting to a unity message for him. He knows 1 song and he will keep playing it while the ship is sinking.

"I'm going to start firing people because my campaign is doing bad....which is a lie because it's secretly doing good and I'mhiring pollsters to tell me so?"
 

studyguy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,282
There is 0% chance Parscale makes it to November. If even August or so.

Considering he's rehired Jason Miller, I honestly doubt he has many people left to turn to even if they're giving him nothing but lemons for campaign updates. While I'm sure there are grifters knocking his door down to get some foot in the lower campaign structure, can't imagine he'd boot out someone on Parscale's level so late in the game but I mean it's Trump so who knows.



Also slightly nervous for my state and county going into this month. We're not only punching up in COVID confirmed cases, but also entering a pretty dangerous fire season. Just this last weekend in the county alone there were 3 small fires. We have a heat wave coming this week and the winds are kicking extraordinarily hard to boot. Between the smoke bombs during protests and generally lower quality of air during fires, I can't help but think we're about to have a bad time for a number of people in the state.

 

RolandGunner

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,523
What did Nixon use in the 1972 election to get re-elected? Was it going against Vietnam protesters and unrest in general?

The 1972 election was really weird. The Democratic primary was very fractured, way worse than this year, and then McGovern tried to unify the party by naming a moderate, Tom Eagleton, as VP. It later turned out that Eagleton had gone through electroshock therapy and had to drop out. Which made McGovern look incompetent for selecting him. Nixon ran on a secret plan for ending the war in Vietnam that would give the US peace with honor, which both sides wanted. Nixon also coined the phrase 'war on crime' and people thought he was empowering police.
 

Ithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,388
I see literally zero tangible benefit to his having rallies, for anyone. Including himself, putting aside the temporary ego boost he gets from doing them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.