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Yep.
Reform goes beyond just laws and regulations. It's a complete attitude and culture change in policing that is needed.
Snitches get stitches is a dumb belief, especially for a cop.
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US PoliEra 2020 |OT6| I will not be closing this thread when the second wave hits.
- Thread starter TheHunter
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Reform goes beyond just laws and regulations. It's a complete attitude and culture change in policing that is needed.
Snitches get stitches is a dumb belief, especially for a cop.
Exactly what I said to myself. Gives him some optics cover to strike down the request for Trump's taxes.
This is such a weird take. If Roberts votes with the other conservatives it basically makes regulating church services impossible. The idea that this decision gives Roberts 'cover' for something else implies he needs it. Do people really think he's worried about liberals saying mean things or that impeachment is even remotely possible?
It's widely reported that Roberts cares a lot about his legacy; so it's not impeachment he's worried about, but more about papering over the conservative takeover of the courts with insignificant decisions like this
Yeah, he's deeply concerned about appearing partisan (even though he ultimately is). He wants to go down in the books like Sandra Day O'Connor (who was also ultimately a staunch conservative on a lot of 5-4 decisions, but maintained an appearance of moderation by writing her own opinions instead of ever signing onto stuff Thomas wrote).
But its only insignificant because of the way Roberts voted. If the decision went the other way it would have massive implications for how states can respond to COVID or any similar situation in the future. I don't see how anyone can read the excerpts to Roberts response to Kavanagh that Mark Stern posted and think this is some weird legacy thing. If y'all were right, then he wouldn't have gone out his way to rebut the dissent.
I never thought about it that way, but this is pretty great on his behalf. Introducing a lot of these women to the national stage.
Nobody remembers the dissent, just the results and how they voted. I guess we'll see when the rest of the decisions come out this year, but I don't trust that man
Right-I lost a sentence there. After 2006 he was second in command all the way to Reid, and had a very active role in leadership. As Reid started to have to step back even while he was still in office, he took over more and more.
I largely think he's coasted on the recruiting success he's had into a blue wave in 2006. He certainly hasn't been the commanding presence in the party that Reid was or the opportunistic monster McConnell has been.
I find it very uncomfortable reading that thread. It feels as if people are all but cheering about destruction and chaos disconnected from the actual problems and events that started it all.
I just don't get it...
User Banned (1 Month): Inflammatory False Equivalence Around Concerns of Racism
I'm not stupid enough to say anything in that thread, but... If we saw right-leaning forums say the same things about right-leaning protests and riots, we'd not skip a beat to call the posters out for all but advocating for violence and disorder.
well tbh, i think the difference is the right-wing are shitheels protesting for the wrong things. Smashing up shit to protest social distancing? dumb, foolish. Smashing shit cause a cop murdered a black man in 10 minutes in front of tens of people without consequences? theres a very big distance.
as long as more people dont die, i think its fine if smashing shit happens.
It's so dumb. I don't rally to the defense of every mail carrier caught on video throwing a package or letting his truck roll away, in part because they make us look bad. Cops just don't give a shit. They have a permanent siege mentality, where it's cops versus the entire rest of humanity.
The difference is what the protestors want and what they're responding to.
Smashing property is barely "violence" anyway. Property isn't real. It doesn't have feelings or lives or families. Property is just stuff, a legal fiction to grant possession of said stuff to someone. And sometimes it's gotta get smashed to get attention when society fails to listen any other way.
I don't agree that smashing things up is fine in the vast majority of cases. There's no connection between shitheel murderous cops and a Louis Vuitton store with suddenly fewer intact windows.
How i see it in the most realistic sense, you deploy police to protect property, rn they gonna get fucked up into needing to respond (tho i disagree with the standards right now, its way too over protective for cops) or retreat. Or the police seemingly charge in for some fucking reason. No, the whole thing is a powder keg, and the police cant be trusted to not light the keg.
But the cops don't own that property, people wholly unrelated to the bad actors do. Why are they now hurt?
I'm not gonna fault somebody if they wanna just smash shit up, but I don't care for those who use real injustices as a seeming excuse to do so.
I don't see how that kind of attention is good. Guess what's on every newascast tomorrow? Video of looting and rioting. Guess what got bumped from those newscasts? The 100k+ dead, Trump's failure, actual discussion about the actual events that should be known and talked about here.
Now Trump and the media have a great distraction to pivot to, instead of the real failings.
Gonna copy/paste my post from the other thread, because it's relevant, and because these protests aren't just about one man's death. That was the catalyst, but there's more to it as well.
Looting is a result of the collapse of the system due to the system's own failure. People wouldn't be looting if they weren't a.) angry and b.) separated from the products of the labor of the working class. Looting expropriates wealth and goods otherwise held by businesses, which tend - overall - to be predominantly owned by or predominantly benefit the wealth of white capitalists. Looting cuts at the heart of capitalist society which is the engine that powers white supremacy, and which white supremacy in turn protects in the US. That doesn't mean that looting is always going to hit the "best" targets, but it's a natural outgrowth of an explosion of anger where people feel like the law is worthless and doesn't help them, so why shouldn't they help themselves?
Capitalist society is built around market transactions and control of production and distribution, and one's place in society is based on your relation to those factors. It shouldn't be surprising that when such a society fails, people go after what they don't have.
People may not think this through in the moment, but they feel it in their gut. They know it. They know they're being screwed over by an oppressive system that ties together racism and wealth, and they need to make their voices heard the only way they can, and if they damage their enemies and get something for themselves in the process, they're gonna do it.
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As long as folks recognize this is a racial injustice moment and not a "bring down capitalism let me tell you why" moment.
This isn't open mic night.
Edit, I was too late!
Please stop thinking about this like a Democratic party operative and please start seeing it from the perspective of the people on the ground. Ask yourself why they're willing to go to these lengths. Hell, just go ask them! Do you think they care whether white suburban Boomers tut tut when they see Fox News tomorrow? Do you think they care whether Trump gets away from the covid news cycle for a day? They're dying, literally! And everything they've tried, when they've tried to protest the white approved way, has failed! At this point the rage is bursting, and no amount of liberal finger wagging and hand wringing matters.
We need to be with the people.
That's kind of my feeling... Rioters are not on the same side as the protesters, and they shouldn't be treated as allies. They are just opportunists that would have done the same if their local sports team won The Big Game.
Rioters hurt the image of protestetors, and distract from the goals of protests.
Cheering them on is misguided.
I mean, he asked why people are looting and not just going after cops, I'm just explaining the material reason behind it and how it ties into the catalyst!
Black people are by and large both materially and racially oppressed, and the two are extremely bound up together.
Good thing black people don't actually care about this. My 60 year old black mother doesn't give a shit about looting being on the news and neither should you.
What is this post? There's hundreds of black rioters across the country who are ABSOLUTELY in the movement and some have contributed more to social justice than anyone on this forum.
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No sphagy, the people stealing 4000 dollar TV's are not trying to bring down the bourgeoisie.
They're opportunists, or worse actively hurting the cause.
The people full of anger burning a police HQ? Yeah they got a message. Random white people burning up banks maybe not so much.
The rioters are part of the protestors! There isn't a BLM style peaceful strategy being ruined by "opportunists" here, the past few days have been an organic explosion of anger and rage at the way the situation has been handled by the polcie and the state.
I just don't see how smashing shit leads to meaningful police reform... the actual goal here.
Look, if you wanna smash shit for fun, or to feel better... I guess. I really don't see how you practically get from smashing shit to accomplishing the goals. If anything, it just leads to more calcification of the bad actors. Minneapolis PD is now going to buy more surplus military gear, not less.
I'm not calling out protesters -- as they are not the rioters, and they have no control over rioters that use their protest as an excuse to riot.
What I have a problem with is the conflation of the two, and some peoples willingness to group them together, and others to cheer on rioting and thinking it's anything but a bad thing that actively harms the goals of the protests.
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they're the same people protesting the same issue
things are now just moving under their own momentum
I didn't say they're actively trying to cause a communist revolution. I said they know their conditions and they're taking action. Are there some people who have jumped in to steal stuff who don't care about the police violence issue? Yeah, sure. That happens when society breaks down. That's also not the problem, and you're letting conservative talking points dominate your concern if that's a thing that you've decided to focus on. It's also just not true that only white outsider opportunists have swooped in to ruin a wonderful peaceful black protest that liberals can be proud of. It's a multiracial protest-riot spurred on by real material and racial causes that are especially particular to black people. It's messy, it's dangerous, it's raw, and genuine.
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No, my only focus was on not taking this moment away from the black community.
If they gotta burn down half the state to get justice so be it.
Y'all realize most of the people in LV and Dior were black people, correct? Not everything is Russian bots and white leftists co opting movements.
A black man is dead but black Atlantans being dripped in gucci and louis tomorrow morning has literally any of your anger.
A black man is dead but black Atlantans being dripped in gucci and louis tomorrow morning has literally any of your anger.
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Perhaps they were actually white accelerationists wearing blackface! Can't trust 'em.
Capitalism is actively complicit in maintaining and worsening racial injustice. Trying to cordon it off into its own separate silo, as though it has nothing to do with this moment, is a massive blind spot.
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I think you're conflating me not wanting people to take the moment the wrong way with anger with destruction of property which I don't really care, buildings can be rebuilt.
Actually they can be two separate things at times; and I don't think talking about capitalism and the rich on an issue like white supremacy and law enforcement helps (In this instance).
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I mean, property can be replaced. Businesses and stuff can be made whole again. I agree with the ban on the thread on property concern trolling.
I'm a conservative democrat, of course I'm apoplectic over the injustice of the murder, but I also despise the cosplay commies in some of these protests clearly just looking LARP and burn things in minority neighborhoods they don't live in. That's just my biases raging at me but I don't have to be slaved to indulge them because they are like rounding error minority and focusing on them dismisses the big picture completely.
The US is a democracy, protesting is part of democracy when social contract fails, most of the protestors are out there for very real and valid reasons. The US has a history of incidents like this that led to real, meaningful, needed reform and shift power centers in a way that's a long-term net positive for society. Jim Clyburn was arrested three times in protests! Now he's a House minority whip with a visionary focus on fixing racial inequality that literally saved the Democratic party from corrosive populism and class reductionist nonsense.
Be uncomfortable, but also respect that it's kind of normal and necessary to keep institutions responsive to the needs of the people.
I'm a conservative democrat, of course I'm apoplectic over the injustice of the murder, but I also despise the cosplay commies in some of these protests clearly just looking LARP and burn things in minority neighborhoods they don't live in. That's just my biases raging at me but I don't have to be slaved to indulge them because they are like rounding error minority and focusing on them dismisses the big picture completely.
The US is a democracy, protesting is part of democracy when social contract fails, most of the protestors are out there for very real and valid reasons. The US has a history of incidents like this that led to real, meaningful, needed reform and shift power centers in a way that's a long-term net positive for society. Jim Clyburn was arrested three times in protests! Now he's a House minority whip with a visionary focus on fixing racial inequality that literally saved the Democratic party from corrosive populism and class reductionist nonsense.
Be uncomfortable, but also respect that it's kind of normal and necessary to keep institutions responsive to the needs of the people.
I think you better said what I couldn't explain myself.
A lot of my concern is 'optics'. Trump's utter failure has been clear as day these last few months, with nothing to distract the media but the ever-increasing death toll... I worry they will now all just pivot to 'Look! Rioters!", and the attention is taken off the real issues.
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Which? There's always been pounds and dollars to be made on the trade of black and brown bodies, whether it be through chattel slavery and the school to prison pipeline. Belief in racial justice separate from economic is fantasy.
I'm sorry we didn't read it in the midst of you comparing police protest violence to white nationalist protests
Appologies if I wasn't clear. I was hypothetically comparing how people view the actions of left-wing rioters vs right-wing rioters, not comparing protestors. Some may disagree, but I don't think protestors and rioters are one and the same.
Do you think black rioters looted a luxury clothing store and burned down a bank just for kicks or something? There's a material component tied into all of this. It's just not separable. The rebellion is simply not just about the 4 cops.
If you watch Unicorn Riot's stream, it's extremely clear what's going on. They keep interviewing people from this multiracial alliance of protestors and their anger is not just about George Floyd alone. This is a legitimate outpouring of pent up anger, and with it comes expropriation. That's nothing new, and we shouldn't be telling oppressed people how to properly express their frustration at being oppressed!
Capitalism in America is inherently tied to white supremacy is inherently tied to the "rule of law" upheld by law enforcement. They're all tied together into this authoritarian anti-black system! Just think of how materially oppressed most black people are relative to Whites! The police protect the wealthy, who are largely white, who keep black people down. Come on!
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Economic issues aren't what's sustaining this type of racism.
It's hate, tribalism and fear. These police officers and their LAw and Order followers aren't pinning for ways to squeeze money out of black people or how to best sustain the capitalist machine.
They just hate anything not white. It's that simple. I agree there are discussions to be had about white supremacy and racism and the material conditions that both arise from those aspects but also sustain them. There's a discussion to be had about slavery, school to prison pipeline and of course capitalism's effect on racism. I do not feel a black man being murdered by racist(and likely white nationalist) cops fits in that discussion. Nor the response of said police and their supporters towards these protests vs the response to white fascists bringing guns to government buildings so they can go to Arby's.
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I'm not mad at anyone rioting though? I said it needed to happen. BLM has tried peaceful and political methods to get change to varying levels of success but not the level they wanted for their communities. More impactful methods were necessary.
See the above for the rest of your question.
Like, no one wants to be broadcasting to the world mass protests in our cities like we're some sort of failed state. It's not the end of the world, and it's not like we are some kind of shining beacon anyway when we have shitmess extreme as President and kids get gunned down in our schools and we just chalk it up to some kind of perverse cost of doing business.
But you kind of have to get over it, and think doubly hard about checking that property tax increase or bond initiative in the future that will pay for better oversight and justice system reform in your local community if you don't want it to happen again. That's kind of the point of protests, to demand that power be allocated for different outcomes than it is now.
Maybe not directly related but when I was active in the Blockupy movement one of the reasons it lost its steam was the what we call the "black block" (wearing all black, not being black). Protesters smashing windows, throwing stones at police etc. It drove away a lot of folk, myself included when they smashed up a "Reformhaus" (sort of like a healthy living small grocery store, a grocery store (no big corp), a tanning salon and a couple of housings on the street while leaving Deutsche Bank unscathed (protest was against big banks). I give them the benefit of the doubt and they probably believed that their actions would bring change sooner but it had the opposite effect. I think it's fair to point out these possible implications. Ofc the situation regarding banks and systemic racism is different as is the situation in Germany vs the US. But I do believe that change comes sooner when you bring more people on the streets and less violence (even violence against property) attracts more people.
And I maintain that this is the height of foolish reductionism. PoC are STILL the targets of choice for free or criminally-cheap labor, and America's prison system is bustling with it. It isn't done solely because of hate, tribalism, and fear, there's a great deal of capital to be grown with it! From the labor itself, to bleeding every cent out of a prisoner laborer to even have so much as a phone call to their family, to stealing the possessions of the most thinly-accused. If you don't think pigs throwing their weight around to keep their lucrative "criminal underclass" of choice afraid, disorganized, and desperate doesn't hold a large tactical and economic incentive for them, you're mistaken. There is hate, tribalism, and fear here... but also a cold and calculated logic.
Racism is a systemic evil, not an individual failing that pops out of the platonic void as soon as a parent inculcates racism into their children. Generationally it is passed on to be sure, reinforced, and taught, but it isn't a mystical, essential force that lives in the heart of man and just expresses itself like an unreasoning disease of the brain. There was capital to be grown in every enslaved person's sale, just as there was capital to be grown in every white race riot (remember Tulsa and how whites reacted to the competition of Black Wall Street?), just as there was capital to be grown in the lynching of black men and forced flight of their families from their homes and businesses, and every time a pig presses his knee into the throat of an able-bodied black man taking pennies out of the profits of a tobacco giant, or in this case, terrorizing and slaughtering a man who was literally a coworker working security shifts in the same fucking venue. This cop is a landlord, no less, a cop who held all the economic power over a man he could (and did) murder in cold blood in broad daylight. That isn't meaningless. That isn't irrelevant.
You can't see the economic injustice in this? Behind every act of terror, theft, abduction, and murder against people of color are scores of white businesses and communities already bickering over how best to divide up the spoils of land, property, money, and custom.
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No, I don't think trying to turn every single actor or action into some grand Opera or 4th dimensional chess play is helpful when the solution is so much simpler.
Humans are tribalist and in this particular case tribalism and hate is the motivating factor. Sevens degrees of separating this all out to be "well acktually it's capitalism" is not helpful.
I say we just drop it as we've had this debate before to no avail.
Humans are tribalist and in this particular case tribalism and hate is the motivating factor. Sevens degrees of separating this all out to be "well acktually it's capitalism" is not helpful.
I say we just drop it as we've had this debate before to no avail.
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The solution to why these animals killed a man.
If I had a solution to the systems failings I wouldn't be posting on this forum!
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