The problem is that his campaign has so many connections and interactions specifically with some of the people at head of this toxicity. You can't simply disconnect Chapo from his campaign, because his campaign goes out of its way to include them.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
US PoliEra 2020 |OT 3| "I think he's learned his lesson" says The Concerned Immoderate Darling Collins.
- Thread starter TheHunter
- Start date
- Status
The problem is that his campaign has so many connections and interactions specifically with some of the people at head of this toxicity. You can't simply disconnect Chapo from his campaign, because his campaign goes out of its way to include them.
Bernie has spoken more on his people being mean online than literally every other candidate. I've seen Warren people say horrendous shit to Native Americans who criticized her on pretending to be Cherokee, but I don't think those racist supporters are representative of Warren herself. I think it's unreasonable to expect a candidate who has already talked more about how he condemns negative behaviour, to control his millions of individual supporters. It's just not feasible.
Warren both thinks Bernie should do more about it and basically said he was dismissive when she came to him with those concerns. But hey, maybe she has no clue what she's talking about.
I don't think he has a dismissive attitude towards it; every time it's come up in debates he's strongly denounced it. I believe him when he says he doesn't approve of it or want it.
With regards to staffers, I am most recently remembering specifically a field officer that was posting anti-LGBTQ stuff, and was fired after. That is terrible behavior and should be punished. Is there something specific you are referring to?
The one time he "strongly denounced it" he said it was probably the Russians.
When Warren tried to talk to him about, she said it was a "short" conversation.
There are some very basic steps he could take to at least give the appearance he gives a shit about it. But he won't. Because it's helpful to him.
When Warren tried to talk to him about, she said it was a "short" conversation.
There are some very basic steps he could take to at least give the appearance he gives a shit about it. But he won't. Because it's helpful to him.
Maybe there's a reason for that, and not an altruistic motive from Bernie.
What more should he be doing besides saying "don't do that"? His people, especially his black staffers, get racist abuse thrown at them all the time and nobody talks about it, why should this be a central campaign issue when 99% of America doesn't care? I don't know what she or her supporters want here.
Warren just said Bernie was dismissive of it to her. Bernie, when confronted about this previously, has said that most of the toxic behavior was the work of Russian bots.
As for his staffers, there has been many instances. Marianne just called the Super Tuesday results a coup. Shaun King is spreading baldfaced lies on Twitter about a conspiracy trying to sabotage Bernie. Briahna Joy Gray said asking about Bernie's medical records was the same as the Birtherism aimed at Obama, and that the term "Bernie Bro" is racist, etc, etc, etc. None of this has been disputed by Bernie, and all happened within the last month.
You know who are the people who do care?
The people who had their personal information spread online.
The House candidate who was pinned in her car by Bernie supporters.
The Union leaders in Nevada who were sent messages saying they should be raped.
These are the people who care. It's not just hurt feelings on Twitter.
Bernie was briefed that Russian trolls were stirring up shit online in his name, there's a context behind this one.
I mean, she actually answered this question in the interview. And once again, this is literally a topic of every debate and interview Bernie takes part in, people absolutely DO care and this has played a part in shaping the perception of him as divisive candidate.
Again, what Warren is talking about is what Obama did. It's called running a tight ship, and Bernie can't do that.
Also, real people got death threats over this. Specifically from WFP. Let's acknowledge that before being dismissive.
Still voting for Bernie if he makes it to NY, but I'm done with the excuses for him. AOC is even better than him at this.
Also, real people got death threats over this. Specifically from WFP. Let's acknowledge that before being dismissive.
Still voting for Bernie if he makes it to NY, but I'm done with the excuses for him. AOC is even better than him at this.
Doesn't need to, and I'm sure Biden would understand if she didn't want to do it explicitly.
Yes, but when that news story broke, he got mad at the Washington Post.
But the point still stands. Bernie was pushed on this last night in an interview with Maddow. He handled it poorly.
You do not just get to say "anyone who does this isn't a part of our campaign." That's not how this works. There is toxicity around Bernie's campaign. And, I'll be honest, it comes from the top. He will do nothing against it because it's useful to him.
Sanders should talk about it.
He talks about the media often enough. And you know what? Jason Johnson and Chris Matthews are no longer on NBC news.
Maybe he could have a similar effect on poor discourse and harassment in social media if he talked about social media.
Online harassment and cyber bullying is a real thing and should not be hand waved away.
And please do not respond with the shitty strawman argument of "you were mean to me so now you don't get universal healthcare." You can be for universal healthcare but be against online harassment. This is a new paradigm in politics that shouldn't be glossed over just because only 20% of the electorate is engaged in it. You can be damn sure it can be used against you if it's a perceived issue (like how Bloomberg was targeting ads against Bernie on this).
As far as broad issues with Sanders and his campaign go, this is not among the top ones but it's an issue that is worth addressing for sure. He should should show proactive measures to minimize its effect.
And now it's time to play devil's advocate:
Any candidate who struggles against online Bernie supporters, is going to melt against Trump's online supporters. They are far more vicious and nasty, completely unrelenting with far more Russian backing. Honestly Hillary was awful at this too with her "deplorable" shit. It never goes well with attacking supporters of a candidate and potential voters.
And please do not respond with the shitty strawman argument of "you were mean to me so now you don't get universal healthcare." You can be for universal healthcare but be against online harassment. This is a new paradigm in politics that shouldn't be glossed over just because only 20% of the electorate is engaged in it. You can be damn sure it can be used against you if it's a perceived issue (like how Bloomberg was targeting ads against Bernie on this).
As far as broad issues with Sanders and his campaign go, this is not among the top ones but it's an issue that is worth addressing for sure. He should should show proactive measures to minimize its effect.
And now it's time to play devil's advocate:
Any candidate who struggles against online Bernie supporters, is going to melt against Trump's online supporters. They are far more vicious and nasty, completely unrelenting with far more Russian backing. Honestly Hillary was awful at this too with her "deplorable" shit. It never goes well with attacking supporters of a candidate and potential voters.
Again, Warren has her viewpoint on it. Bernie has made his own statement; I don't think he's lying about his stance.
With regards to your examples: Marianne is a fool and should be removed immediately. I don't know who Shaun King is. The medical record debacle is in my view extremely ignorant and though it lacks the racism aspect, it's nearly as stupid as birtherism, I don't even consider that statement that out of this world and I've argued a lot (too much) on this site how from my point of view as an MD it was one of the most ignorant attacks I've seen in this campaign. Briana Gray's rhetoric is intense but I don't find it to be coming from a place of bad faith. She could tone it down a notch with the Bernie Bro comment I agree.
My broader point is, these issues are magnified when you're online all the time and your discourse is online all the time. It hasn't translated to any of my real life experience; any Bernie supporters I know are just normal people, just like supporters of the other candidates. They have no idea this shit is going on on Twitter. Some people give it so much credence, and in this thread we are interchanging "Bernie Supporters" for all of the bad faith actors on Twitter; it doesn't sit right with me, because you're including me in that group.Warren's idea of hiring staffers to act as Twitter moderators is stupid because it showcases one of the issue with her campaign, too much emphasis on twitter/online bubbles. It is not surprising that she led in NV (or NH?) among people who use twitter regularly.
Toxic behavior is important to address, it can effect people and have tangible effects. I don't know what more Bernie can do about it apart from disowning those people from the movement every time he's asked about it. That is a sufficient stance in my view.
People don't care about it, the media does because they're all on twitter. If Bernie made it to the general, they'd be asking him that question 1000x more than they'd ask Trump that question, and that's not because Bernie people are somehow more dangerous than Trump supporters, it's because they found a narrative and they'll never let go of it. It's like when they asked about the emails in the last election 1000x but barely touched on Trump's corruption in comparison. Just because it's something the media talks about, doesn't make it a more legitimate issue in people's lives like health care or social security.
I can't understand why a person with a Hillary avatar would be so defensive about the media. Of course he's mad at the Washington Post, they published a story that was quickly debunked afterwards implying Russia handpicked him to win the election the day before the Nevada caucus. Jennifer Rubin runs opinion piece after opinion piece hitting him with constant, unfair attacks. You don't HAVE to love every aspect of the media just because Trump hates them. Hillary sure as hell wasn't a fan either.
And honest question, if you feel he handled it poorly, what's the response you're looking for? What combination of words should he say that would satisfy you on this issue? I don't think there is any, there's no version of "I don't condone this behaviour" that I think people who have dug into this narrative would accept. Bernie has very rarely personally attacked Warren, but Warren has been far more harsh towards him, even implying that he was a sexist not too long ago. What's Bernie's play here?
You should probably look into who Shaun King is, because he's a surrogate for Bernie's campaign with a million followers.
And the idea that asking for medical records is even in the ballpark of the extreme bigotry of Birtherism is nonsensical. Briahna's rhetoric is beyond intense, it's reckless and toxic, not to mention Bernie approved. (Which is the whole point.)
What does this mean though? What more should Bernie do? He can't control the actions of millions of anonymous people, that's just not a realistic demand.
Warren has outlined a simple example of what he can do. He should hire people who should be moderating and denouncing bad actions publicly. Also have actual talks with your surrogates and staff about it. It definitely feels like Sanders doesn't even want to talk at length about it or want to get to the root cause of it. You can't control every bad apple but you can control the most prominent ones.
More than anything, he should make a symbolic gesture. Speak directly to his online supporters. Show action and response rather than just words.
this is absolutely pathetic.
but it's always been fuck the NYT
The issue with the toxic fringe has always been one of leadership. Bernie disowned them, but didn't also ask that his good, hardworking supporters to lean in and help fight the hostility when they see it, that is he wouldn't recognize the problem and have his surrogates lead the fight against it (instead they would just feed them into a frenzy).
I honestly think Bernie didn't think it was his problem to solve. Maybe he needed a giant online effort them to help raise money when his campaign was stuttering. Maybe he needed an outside influence on social media that increased his brand awareness. Maybe you can't have those things without some toxic remainder, and having them around was basically a cost of goods served, and candidates can only manage so many things at a time in a campaign (cognitive load).
It's tough. But after 2016 you knew it was a problem, and there was no reason to not to get volunteers to coordinate to keep extreme behavior from being normalized (which is what happened).
I honestly think Bernie didn't think it was his problem to solve. Maybe he needed a giant online effort them to help raise money when his campaign was stuttering. Maybe he needed an outside influence on social media that increased his brand awareness. Maybe you can't have those things without some toxic remainder, and having them around was basically a cost of goods served, and candidates can only manage so many things at a time in a campaign (cognitive load).
It's tough. But after 2016 you knew it was a problem, and there was no reason to not to get volunteers to coordinate to keep extreme behavior from being normalized (which is what happened).
Every campaign has its share of bad actors and Twitter makes them even louder and worse. Bernie has denounced the behavior of these shitty trolls on more than one occasion, though it also took him quite a while to get to that point. There are more good people supporting Bernie than there are Twitter shitheads.
At the same time, it's ignorant to pretend that this problem isn't particularly pronounced and more prolific among a certain segment of Bernie supporters compared to other candidates' voters, or that just because this is happening on Twitter it doesn't bleed over offline. Twitter isn't real life, but it does shape perceptions. I know a lot of people who are Warren supporters who will have a very hard time getting onboard with Bernie, if they do at all, and the hundreds to thousands of fucking assholes on Twitter are a big part why.
At the same time, it's ignorant to pretend that this problem isn't particularly pronounced and more prolific among a certain segment of Bernie supporters compared to other candidates' voters, or that just because this is happening on Twitter it doesn't bleed over offline. Twitter isn't real life, but it does shape perceptions. I know a lot of people who are Warren supporters who will have a very hard time getting onboard with Bernie, if they do at all, and the hundreds to thousands of fucking assholes on Twitter are a big part why.
I'm defensive about the media because Bernie acts Trumpian any time the media doesn't give him a big bear hug and tell everyone how wonderful he is. You literally just argued that Bernie was briefed about the Russian interference, but then argued it was debunked. I never claimed I loved every aspect of the media, but no one, not Hillary, not Bernie, not God herself is entitled to good press. And if you get bad press, well, sometimes you have to take your lump and move on. This week Bernie refused to let a reporter from the Washington Post ask a question because he didn't like the coverage he gets from them. That's Trumpian. That shit gotta go, and has no room from a Democratic nominee or Democratic president (luckily that's looking like it won't be an issue).
I would like him to acknowledge it's an actual problem. That would be a very, very basic place to start.
Also, it's not a narrative. It's a fact.
And the woman is always harsher than the poor man.
Let's not pretend that toxic Bernie supporters are just on Twitter or Reddit. They're all over the place here as well. One personally attacked me across four or five separate posts in the OT and got banned and then unbanned within hours. People calling out the toxicity are actually getting banned which is bizarre to me.
I think it's more he wouldn't be expected to walk it back. Joe can just go "Yea I said it, and I god damn meant it." Nobody will care.
No it's because Biden would gladly take their votes to win and also sees them as Americans. It's a fundamental difference between him and Clinton... Biden really believes he is fighting for the soul of America and that means all of it.
Also he can get away with it because he's a guy but I honestly don't expect him to make a statement like that to begin with.
i just saw a tweet from him and almost fretted about taking it seriously and then remembered he was of those.
Biden will have a gaffe a day. Because of this political climate, that might not actually tank his campaign. His declining cognitive health may destroy his candidacy entirely, or it'll inoculate him from blunders like Trump's constant corruption did.
Trump didn't invent being hostile to the press. One thing I agree with NYT reporter Astead Wesley about is the overuse of the term "Trumpian".
And I guess this is where we diverge on norms and such. If during the 2016 election, if Hillary "disrespected" a reporter by refusing to answer one of the many extremely dumb ass questions they asked her or told them to fuck off, I would have cheered her on. I wouldn't be pearl clutching about the sanctity of the free press, because sometimes they're just out to "own" the dem candidate.
The debate against Trump is going to be pretty funny, just because there's not really any sexist barriers against how much of a dick he can be.
I don't really think Biden's mental health is declining that badly-he was sharp all throughout townhalls and I honestly think he did well in the South Carolina debate. Getting to know that he has a speech impediment gave me some perspective and it made me think he will be fine. People really exaggerate about his health but he'll be fine governing and making rational decisions.
Maybe spending almost 2 years and a billion dollars cutting ads against any person who has a chance to get the nomination is not the best idea.
But something something, the more democracy the better.
"just people being mean online"
https://www.wcia.com/news/capitol-n...lk-harass-democratic-congressional-candidate/
This happened in my town less than two weeks ago.
I'd take a slightly forgetful Biden over the incoherent incumbent whose vocabulary seems to consist of 100 words, most of them adjectives such as "tremendous".
Please note I love Liz, don't think Bernie believes or supports what the worst of his supporters peddle (but DOES permit it because the cost of stopping it is too high), and I hate online toxicity even when it's coming from me.
But this meme is just spicy not to share, wait actually it is and sorry to all for posting it.
But this meme is just spicy not to share, wait actually it is and sorry to all for posting it.
Last edited:
Please note I love Liz, don't think Bernie believes or supports what the worst of his supporters peddle (but DOES permit it because the cost of stopping it is too high), and I hate online toxicity even when it's coming from me.
But this meme is just spicy not to share.
It's a good toxic meme. Yes. Very funny.
Also, I laugh at the fact that Bernie supporters really don't get it and are caught in a perpetual downward spiral of complaining about people complaining about them. Of supporters of other candidates turned off by their language instead of just apologizing. It's Trumpian, like Adam said.
And not smart.
Please note I love Liz, don't think Bernie believes or supports what the worst of his supporters peddle (but DOES permit it because the cost of stopping it is too high), and I hate online toxicity even when it's coming from me.
But this meme is just spicy not to share.
That's some lame shit and I love Metal
Gear
it's spicy, but for the opposite reason of what its intention was.
Man, Trump couldn't be any more ridiculously stupid with saying "we'll be cutting social security and medicare" in a softball question.
- Status