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GrapeApes

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,491

Just one more step beyond parody.

The original headline sucked though.

twitter.com

Josh Kraushaar on Twitter

“In “60 Minutes” interview, Sanders goes out of his way praise elements of Castro’s reign of Cuba. “We’re very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba but it’s unfair to say everything’s bad. When Castro came into office you know what he did? He had a literacy program.””

 
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TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
I mean...there's nothing there that he's wrong about.

It's hard to compare when Donald trump felates Un and Putin and then goes "WHAT ABOUT YOU AND CASTRO" when Bernard actually you know, says Castro fucked up.

Which Donny has yet to do.
 

SSF1991

Member
Jun 19, 2018
3,263
In my opinion, it's not what he said here. It's not necessarily wrong. But also not something he should've said.

It's that the other candidates will attack him with this in debates as "he supports dictators too, just like Trump".
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
Is this the 80s clip again or did he say it again on 60 Minutes since he's on there tonight?

I mean, if you really think the way to win an election (let alone Florida) is to praise anything Fidel Castro did, then idk what to tell you?
 

Newlib

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,822
Trump is best friends with a regime 10x more brutal than Cuba. I am not going to fret over bad faith attacks based on fucking Cuba of all places.
 
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TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Is this the 80s clip again or did he say it again on 60 Minutes since he's on there tonight?

I mean, if you really think the way to win an election (let alone Florida) is to praise anything Fidel Castro did, then idk what to tell you?
Donald Trump praises several dictators and never condemns a thing they do.

Here Bernie does and draws a distinction saying the literacy program was good but Fidel fucked up by imprisoning people.
 

TheAbsolution

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,391
Atlanta, GA
Is this the 80s clip again or did he say it again on 60 Minutes since he's on there tonight?

I mean, if you really think the way to win an election (let alone Florida) is to praise anything Fidel Castro did, then idk what to tell you?
IMO, it's a very nuanced opinion that unfortunately, I feel a lot of American voters simply will not understand that nuance. Even if he is right.
It's certainly a legitimate risk we run with Sanders.
 

Newlib

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,822
I'm not sure anyone is arguing he's wrong or saying something ridiculous, then or now.

Then what are we arguing about? The Cuban Revolution was nearly sixty years ago. Castro is dead! There isn't a single person who is going to change their vote because Bernie said that Castro implemented a literacy program.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Then why are we sky is falling every little thing?

Seriously. Socialism is something to be concerned about, comments taking out of context from almost 30 years ago?
Then what are we arguing about? The Cuban Revolution was nearly sixty years ago. Castro is dead! There isn't a single person who is going to change their vote because Bernie said that Castro implemented a literacy program.

My guess would be the politics of the topic, the kind of zero upside nature of defending it and it's impact on his electability? It's a weird thing to even touch.
 
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TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
I personally think it shows his consistency on policy and ideology.

A genuine feel of realness I guess.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
Donald Trump praises several dictators and never condemns a thing they do.

Here Bernie does and draws a distinction saying the literacy program was good but Fidel fucked up by imprisoning people.
Again, though, when we literally know what the attacks are going to be, and there are things coming out of the man's mouth that reinforce these attacks, I have no idea why everyone wants to just hand waive this shit away. You are expecting the American people to understand nuance. The american electorate is incapable of understanding nuance. When presented with BERNIE IS A SOCIALIST COMMUNIST WHO LOVES CASTRO....and then you have a clip of him praising something Castro did in the year of our Lord 2020, the idea that no one is going to care about htat, that people are going to sit down and say "Well, okay, but Trump said something nice about a dictator so I guess it's totally the same and/or Bernie's is better" is just...it's not based in reality.

After a while we need to make peace with the fact that some of this shit is going to matter, and we need better responses than expecting the electorate to have any ounce of intellectual curiosity to deal with shit.

(And sorry I didn't hear the clip first, because I was trying to get my youngest to sleep and I didn't have my headphones.)
 

Newlib

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,822
Again, though, when we literally know what the attacks are going to be, and there are things coming out of the man's mouth that reinforce these attacks, I have no idea why everyone wants to just hand waive this shit away. You are expecting the American people to understand nuance. The american electorate is incapable of understanding nuance. When presented with BERNIE IS A SOCIALIST COMMUNIST WHO LOVES CASTRO....and then you have a clip of him praising something Castro did in the year of our Lord 2020, the idea that no one is going to care about htat, that people are going to sit down and say "Well, okay, but Trump said something nice about a dictator so I guess it's totally the same and/or Bernie's is better" is just...it's not based in reality.

After a while we need to make peace with the fact that some of this shit is going to matter, and we need better responses than expecting the electorate to have any ounce of intellectual curiosity to deal with shit.

(And sorry I didn't hear the clip first, because I was trying to get my youngest to sleep and I didn't have my headphones.)

The point isn't that no one will care, there will be a ton of bad faith attacks. The point is not a single persons vote is going to change because it. Haven't the last four years gotten through the point that the average person does not care about these typical of political arguments?
 

Plinko

Member
Oct 28, 2017
18,564
Expecting the average voter to take the time to dissect each statement a candidate makes for any nuance is laughable at best.
 
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TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Trump praised Nazi's so...

I get your concerns Adam but this isn't as bad of a look in 2020 as it would have been in 2000.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
not answering the question would have absolutely been worse.

Huh? To who? A non answer about it being a different time and Cuba having new leadership and blah blah blah wouldn't even get a mention.

I just imagine a giant sign pointing at a cookie under a trap saying "TRAP" and someone reaching for it face first anyway. Just walk around it.
 

DinosaurusRex

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,953
there should be more than one state on the first primary day anyway.
why not like Iowa, Nevada, SC? Seems like a nice balance Midwest, southern, and West
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
The problem with slamming someone like Putin while praising something about Castro is it suggests that one doesn't see them as two sides of the same coin, with nominally "socialist" authoritarian dictators getting the benefit of the doubt where absolutely none is deserved. (and this isn't a problem unique to Sanders)
 

No Depth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,266


Even Nixon amended the Medicare program with some good improvements such as assisted use of Kidney dialysis.

(Actually how many Trump supporters are even aware one of Nixon's few positive achievements would be on the chopping block of not for pesky Dems protecting their social services? How many of them use or know someone that need such life-saving treatments and McConnell and co. are licking their lips to gut?)

Tangent aside, yea certainly not everything is monstrous, but our nation is not pragmatic or interested enough to see beyond a field of targeted attack ads likely being lined up.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Even Nixon amended the Medicare program with some good improvements such as assisted use of Kidney dialysis.

(Actually how many Trump supporters are even aware one of Nixon's few positive achievements would be on the chopping block of not for pesky Dems protecting their social services? How many of them use or know someone that need such life-saving treatments and McConnell and co. are licking their lips to gut?)

Tangent aside, yea certainly not everything is monstrous, but our nation is not pragmatic or interested enough to see beyond a field of targeted attack ads likely being lined up.
Nixon's economic politics were legitimately on the left. He wanted a social democratic apartheid state.
 

Mulligan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,505
Bernie isn't wrong. He just lacks the political instincts to not scare the shit out of the normies who don't know any better.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
The point isn't that no one will care, there will be a ton of bad faith attacks. The point is not a single persons vote is going to change because it. Haven't the last four years gotten through the point that the average person does not care about these typical of political arguments?
I mean, I don't honestly know what to tell you if you really don't think praising a communist dictator is a bad faith attack and that no one will care about it. Hillary actually brought his praise up of Castro in 2016, and that's one of the many reasons he lost Florida. if you praise Castro, you are not winning the state of Florida. We can handwave that away as "We don't have to win Florida" or whatever, but when Bernie is already having problems with older voters, when we know what the lines of attack are going to be, doubling down on shit like that is asinine. There are very few (if any) statements in politics that are entirely positive or entirely negative. Praising the troops is probably as close to universally positive as you can get, tbh. There is no benefit whatsoever to giving the benefit of the doubt to Fidel Castro. None whatsoever. There is no voter who is suddenly going to be "You know what, he's right. That Fidel....he had a damn good literacy program."

I get your concerns Adam but this isn't as bad of a look in 2020 as it would have been in 2000.
Like I said, it's just unforced error and kinda reinforces one of my biggest fears about him, that he won't revise past stances even if he feels he is 100% right. Pivot off this shit ASAP. We lose elections through a million tiny cuts targeted at various slices of the electorate. For you and I, this isn't a big deal. We're intelligent enough (or at least you are, I stand by the fact I'm a dumbass) to parse what he's saying. If a candidate wants to win Florida, you literally cannot get within 10 miles of a nice comment about Castro. There is, unfortunately, a pretty decent segment of the population who is still terrified of the Red Scare and this kind of shit leans hard into their priors about socialism.

I'm not hating on anyone who this doesn't bother, because I'm right there with you...it's just we know what the American Electorate is like. We know what they'll do, and pretending they'll somehow be different just because it's Bernie at the top of the ticket....

Honestly, I'm more upset about him not knowing how much his stupid M4A that's never going to happen is supposed to cost.
 

bluexy

Comics Enabler & Freelance Games Journalist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
14,514
Huh? To who? A non answer about it being a different time and Cuba having new leadership and blah blah blah wouldn't even get a mention.

I just imagine a giant sign pointing at a cookie under a trap saying "TRAP" and someone reaching for it face first anyway. Just walk around it.
tough questions don't go away if you just choose not to answer them. they become the news cycle and then they get brought up again anyway, often in less well-intentioned ways.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,815

twitter.com

Josh Kraushaar on Twitter

“In “60 Minutes” interview, Sanders goes out of his way praise elements of Castro’s reign of Cuba. “We’re very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba but it’s unfair to say everything’s bad. When Castro came into office you know what he did? He had a literacy program.””

Gwen Graham:



The clip:

twitter.com

60 Minutes on Twitter

“Bernie Sanders defends his 1980s comments about Fidel Castro in an interview on 60 Minutes. https://t.co/ySqvQKoiBU https://t.co/lTwuXWp9sA”


Goodbye Florida.

That was quick.
 

Bobson Dugnutt

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,052
They will try to smear Bernie because of his associations with people. it happened to Corbyn. it worked to a large extent. It's a bit different because Bernie has been ploughing his own furrow in comparison to Corbyn who cosied up to just about everybody you might expect him to in his previously low proifile career. you only need to get enough people to think "better the devil you know" in certain swing states for it to cost him.

He is more proactive and likable and seems to have mostly learned lessons, unlike Corbyn, and is trying to build a bigger coalition, but as a Brit I've seen this nightmare play out before and I'm nervous. hopefully the different electoral systems/calculus will mean i'm fussing for nothing.
 

bluexy

Comics Enabler & Freelance Games Journalist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
14,514
did you even read the piece or are you just kneejerk reacting to a removed-of-context headline change
trust me from personal experience. when you change a headline like that, it becomes the news story regardless of what the article is about, lol.

why y'all be so toxic sometimes.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I mean, I don't honestly know what to tell you if you really don't think praising a communist dictator is a bad faith attack and that no one will care about it. Hillary actually brought his praise up of Castro in 2016, and that's one of the many reasons he lost Florida. if you praise Castro, you are not winning the state of Florida. We can handwave that away as "We don't have to win Florida" or whatever, but when Bernie is already having problems with older voters, when we know what the lines of attack are going to be, doubling down on shit like that is asinine. There are very few (if any) statements in politics that are entirely positive or entirely negative. Praising the troops is probably as close to universally positive as you can get, tbh. There is no benefit whatsoever to giving the benefit of the doubt to Fidel Castro. None whatsoever. There is no voter who is suddenly going to be "You know what, he's right. That Fidel....he had a damn good literacy program."


Like I said, it's just unforced error and kinda reinforces one of my biggest fears about him, that he won't revise past stances even if he feels he is 100% right. Pivot off this shit ASAP. We lose elections through a million tiny cuts targeted at various slices of the electorate. For you and I, this isn't a big deal. We're intelligent enough (or at least you are, I stand by the fact I'm a dumbass) to parse what he's saying. If a candidate wants to win Florida, you literally cannot get within 10 miles of a nice comment about Castro. There is, unfortunately, a pretty decent segment of the population who is still terrified of the Red Scare and this kind of shit leans hard into their priors about socialism.

I'm not hating on anyone who this doesn't bother, because I'm right there with you...it's just we know what the American Electorate is like. We know what they'll do, and pretending they'll somehow be different just because it's Bernie at the top of the ticket....

Honestly, I'm more upset about him not knowing how much his stupid M4A that's never going to happen is supposed to cost.
STOP SAYING THIS.

This isn't just directed at you, but Castro, Chavez/Maduro- countries being taken over and looted by nominally socialist/communist authoritarian figures, causing citizens to flee their country into places like the United States? That's not a "red scare", that's a very real situation that negatively impacted many, many people and left them with a very real and completely understandable distrust of anyone using "socialism" due to their experience. The "red scare" was in the 1950s. We've got an ongoing refugee crisis coming from Venezuela right this second!
 
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