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Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
I think it's the right thing to do, but I think it is politically impossible and that the racial resentment in this country would solidify even more than it has. From the far right on up to older 'liberals' like Joe Biden, you've got people who see black folks as synonymous with poor folks, and most of those people already think that anyone taking advantage of any kind of government assistance are scum leaching off of society. We almost have to solve income inequality before we can tackle reparations. If you don't tackle income inequality before you do reparations, you'll get a Trumpian White Nationalist winning in a wave election immediately after that happens.
This seems like my opinion on as well.

On top of how do you prove or disprove someone's ethnicity? What if they are mixed African? What about someone who looks whiter than Joe Biden but claims they have 2% African American blood in them? Hell can I as someone who is brown looking claim I have 1% African DNA in me and this can qualify for reparations?

Then what about reparations for Japanese Americans, Native Americans, Muslim Americans? I know this is whataboutism but American is made on top of a genocide against Native Americans who were nearly wiped out. Just because there are fewer of them doesn't make their struggle any less valid. Eventually you will need reparations for Latino Americans as well.

This isn't really something that is even popular in the Democratic primary. Occasionally a candidate brings it up or a moderator, they get some cheers but is forgotten soon after. Some of the candidates have vague ways of going about it, Bernie in particular doesn't really go in for reparations.

I think criminal justice reform, immigration reform and tackling wealth inequality alongside corruption are strong initial steps before we get to the topic of reparations. I am not against African American getting cheques for being African American but this is something that is very difficult to moderate and implement not to mention politicize in general election and create even higher racial tensions.
 

Soul Skater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,201
Have to say the interesting thing to come out of the Mueller stuff is that Bannon is a shitty person, but he seemed to be trying to prevent the rest of the campaign from criming while the rest didn't care about how much crime they did.
It is sort of funny how a guy who is probably best described as a White Nationalist Anarchist cared the most about the law
 

Soul Skater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,201
Pelosi has horrible instincts and needs to be dragged kicking and screaming to not handle everything completely wrong

news at 11
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,276
Come on, absolutely none of the reporting around the time this came out or since has indicated that Pelosi had finally caughtTrump in her trap and was getting the chance to do what she'd wanted to this whole time. It was the sudden pressure from rank-and-file Dems to do something that made impeachment possible, not because Pelosi was secretly leading the conference on the issue. She wasn't going to stop it if the majority was there, but there's absolutely no (known) indication that this was actually her plan all along.

My read is that her plan all along was to keep her powered dry and only move if she had the support of her caucus. She didn't forsee Trump falling into her Ukraine trap and she wasn't playing 27th dimensional chess. She was just waiting for an opportunity and was focused on putting her caucus in the strongest position for 2020 in the meantime.

It wasn't a shift in the rank-and-file that made things move, it was specifically a shift in Reps from battleground districts. Nothing was going to happen with out them and if she was out in public fire-branding about impeachment 24/7 it would have made it harder for these more vulnerable reps to support it. In the end, they were able to come forward and say that the facts led them to their support, rather than looking like they had their arms twisted by the "Evil Nancy Pelosi". In many of these districts they need to be seen as independent of Pelosi to be viable.

Once we saw that shift we started to hear about Pelosi taking meetings with her caucus and she started releasing a series of trial balloons in the press. The way she rolled out the investigation and her messaging about it has played a large role in the impeachment's increasing public support.

No lol

The evidence is very clear that Pelosi moved on impeachment because she had no choice.

It really isn't.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
Pelosi is not a leader, she is a follower. Let's get this squared up.

She will follow where the American people want to take her with polls and she will follow her Democratic caucus. That's a good quality to have as a speaker of the House, which is to speak on behalf of the House (or rather the majority of it).

Pelosi is never going to speak against the will of her caucus and that prohibits her from claiming that she is a strong leader.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,620
That's exactly what he just said!
"She moved on it as soon as she had the votes" sounds to me more like a pre-determined plan that came to fruition once the numbers were on side and less like she embraced impeachment despite initial resistance to it because the rest of the conference was already moving in that direction, which imo is a more accurate take on what happened. There's zero indication that Pelosi had spent the spring and summer secretly whipping support for an eventual impeachment inquiry (on the contrary, there are many stories of Nadler butting heads with Pelosi behind the scenes because he wanted to move forward on it and she did not) which, if impeachment was her plan all along, you'd think that would be the case.

She did the right and good thing in the end, but she was never leading on it.
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,729
Pelosi is not a leader, she is a follower. Let's get this squared up.

She will follow where the American people want to take her with polls and she will follow her Democratic caucus. That's a good quality to have as a speaker of the House, which is to speak on behalf of the House (or rather the majority of it).

Pelosi is never going to speak against the will of her caucus and that prohibits her from claiming that she is a strong leader.
It sounds as though you're saying the Speaker is a leader in the parliamentary sense, but not alwa ys the political one. Any Speaker, that is.

And I think a few of us have made that argument in so many words before.
 

cameron

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
23,821


Josh Dawsey @jdawsey1

Trump berated aides in May who pushed for better Ukraine ties. He sought to block 2017 aid, complaining of country & saying it would offend Russia. He has questioned whether it's a real country. W/@GregJaffe on loathing at heart of impeachment probe: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/a-presidential-loathing-for-ukraine-is-at-the-heart-of-the-impeachment-inquiry/2019/11/02/8280ee60-fcc5-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html …

4:41 PM - Nov 2, 2019
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
If we pass a public option will most Americans have healthcare?
I mean, even under the ACA 91.2% of Americans are insured. But that's not the point. If a public option is put in place in a way that makes it illegal for places that accept health insurance to not accept the public option and make it so that non-payment doesn't get you ejected from the public option (but instead have the IRS garnish your wages if you should be able to afford it so it becomes a de facto tax) you're pretty much guaranteed to have 98% coverage. And the 2% would mostly just be people who are against health insurance for some stupid reason like the people in the Netherlands that choose to be uninsured.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
Pelosi definitely did not have a choice. Did you all forget her various out bursts whenever she was asked about impeachments before this Ukraine deal?




She has been against impeachment from the start, eventually she had to be convinced otherwise. She wasn't going to go against her caucus so she folded like a good speaker of the House.
 

Arm Van Dam

self-requested ban
Banned
Mar 30, 2019
5,951
Illinois


Josh Dawsey @jdawsey1

Trump berated aides in May who pushed for better Ukraine ties. He sought to block 2017 aid, complaining of country & saying it would offend Russia. He has questioned whether it's a real country. W/@GregJaffe on loathing at heart of impeachment probe: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/a-presidential-loathing-for-ukraine-is-at-the-heart-of-the-impeachment-inquiry/2019/11/02/8280ee60-fcc5-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html …

4:41 PM - Nov 2, 2019


Trump then peppered Volker with his negative views of Ukraine, suggesting that it wasn't a "real country," that it had always been a part of Russia, and that it was "totally corrupt."

This should set off alarm bells
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
You know, I wonder at what point Zelensky stops covering for Trump? Then again, his covering for Trump is going to be a political anchor for him at home.
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,943


Josh Dawsey @jdawsey1

Trump berated aides in May who pushed for better Ukraine ties. He sought to block 2017 aid, complaining of country & saying it would offend Russia. He has questioned whether it's a real country. W/@GregJaffe on loathing at heart of impeachment probe: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/a-presidential-loathing-for-ukraine-is-at-the-heart-of-the-impeachment-inquiry/2019/11/02/8280ee60-fcc5-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html …

4:41 PM - Nov 2, 2019

"They're not even a real country anyway!"

 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
Japanese-Americans did, in fact, get reparations for internment.

The rest of your post is whataboutism and "but it's too hard to track the familial history of black people with a claim," no offense.
Yeah it is whataboutism (I prefaced it) yet I would still be for African American getting reparations.

Also damn that Pelosi thread has people out with their pitchforks. Like I don't greatly dislike Pelosi or anything that extreme... but people in full bitch crackers mode.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
8,276
"She moved on it as soon as she had the votes" sounds to me more like a pre-determined plan that came to fruition once the numbers were on side and less like she embraced impeachment despite initial resistance to it because the rest of the conference was already moving in that direction, which imo is a more accurate take on what happened. There's zero indication that Pelosi had spent the spring and summer secretly whipping support for an eventual impeachment inquiry (on the contrary, there are many stories of Nadler butting heads with Pelosi behind the scenes because he wanted to move forward on it and she did not) which, if impeachment was her plan all along, you'd think that would be the case.

She did the right and good thing in the end, but she was never leading on it.

Those Nadler stories helped Nadler deal with a primary challenger who was actually getting a little bit of traction attacking him on impeachment. Lindsey Boylan was actually raising a threatening amount of money based on her attacks of Nadler.
 

less

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,838
On Pelosi, it is very possible that she didn't want impeachment as she believes it would have been disastrous for the Dems and just at the same time it is possible for Pelosi to just be speaking bullshit about adhering to pay go.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
On Pelosi, it is very possible that she didn't want impeachment as she believes it would have been disastrous for the Dems and just at the same time it is possible for Pelosi to just be speaking bullshit about adhering to pay go.
Of course. And I also believe that she was playing purposely to the center on the impeachment thing prior to the Ukraine even though she absolutely hated Trumps guts and would love to impeach his ass. But the mix messaging was playing out very poorly previously and thus Democratic leadership had to course correct.

I have to give credit on Pelosi on post impeachment announcement though, she has handled that well enough in terms of messaging and clarity. I also have to give her credit on standing up to Trump on the Syria thing and telling people that Trump had a meltdown and has mental health problems that she is praying for. That was one of her finest moments.
 

SneakersSO

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,353
North America
What is everyone's opinion in here on reparations?

www.theatlantic.com

The Case for Reparations

Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole.

One of the most important essay's written in this decade about America. I highly recommend reading it.

I am now of the belief that until we as a nation must pay reparations so as to have the payment act as a nationwide admittance of what we did as a country, the specter of racism that powers so much of our conservative politics will always rise to power, only to be barely beaten back by the more sensible party.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
No one should want impeachment. Impeachment is a bad thing! In no universe is it the thing anyone with good political instinct wants to run on. The fact that we are in this position is freaking terrifying and sad. We literally didn't have a choice in this instance. And that framing is part of the reason the polling has moved so decisively for us. (Also because this is so obvious and flagrant). Impeachment, a legitimate impeachment, is the result of a failure of the executive branch to operate within the constitutionally defined (and less officially codified) norms.

But, yes, it's a day that ends in y, so let's drag Pelosi.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,003


Josh Dawsey @jdawsey1

Trump berated aides in May who pushed for better Ukraine ties. He sought to block 2017 aid, complaining of country & saying it would offend Russia. He has questioned whether it's a real country. W/@GregJaffe on loathing at heart of impeachment probe: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/a-presidential-loathing-for-ukraine-is-at-the-heart-of-the-impeachment-inquiry/2019/11/02/8280ee60-fcc5-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html …

4:41 PM - Nov 2, 2019

All roads lead to Putin.
 

Soul Skater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,201
Yeah, the most successful and powerful woman in the history of America has probably only ever succeeded in spite of herself.
Joe Biden has had a pretty long and successful career but we don't have a problem pointing out he's out of touch and doesn't grasp the current political landscape when he clearly displays he is

I'm just kind of tired of things being handled poorly. The entire wait for Mueller strategy and the lack of urgency completely blew up in her face and we almost let the most corrupt criminal potus ever get away with blatant open treason unscathed. Only to get luckily bailed out because Trump is just that dumb

She is also completely wrong about her reading of what the problem with the EC currently is. Nobody cares about Pay Go or whatever and she still seems to believe it's the 90s or something. What's driving the GOP right now and what has given them a massive boost in their EC and Senate advantage is that Trump successfully planted his flag in the GOP being the Anti-immigrant party. It isn't M4A that has killed the elasticity of so many districts and swing states, it wasn't socialism that lead to McCaskill, Heidi and Donnelly getting BTFO even in a D+8 wave midterm. It's nativism and xenophobia and the Republican Party fully committing to it that did that. And I simply don't trust people in the leadership to read the room correctly or make decisions going forward if they don't see it
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,276


giphy.gif
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,707
the reflex that Pelosi can do no wrong is very weird and should be avoided.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
the reflex that Pelosi can do no wrong is very weird and should be avoided.
Yeah I like Pelosi, but she clearly didn't have much of a plan on impeaching Trump other than "wait for him to do something really stupid and undeniably impeachable so that it can be an easy sell to the public." Luckily that happened, but her leadership on the issue recently has been completely circumstantial.

I really just want her to shine again in 2021-2022 when she's whipping hard bills that might actually get signed into law.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Two things can be true:

Pelosi is an extremely smart and capable politician who has repeatedly demonstrated her ability to get the most progressive possible outcome out of a given situation,

but she was wrong about impeachment along with all the other Democratic leaders because they are institutionally biased against believing that American democracy is undergoing a catastrophic crisis.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,707

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Two things can be true:

Pelosi is an extremely smart and capable politician who has repeatedly demonstrated her ability to get the most progressive possible outcome out of a given situation,

but she was wrong about impeachment along with all the other Democratic leaders because they are institutionally biased against believing that American democracy is undergoing a catastrophic crisis.
See, funny thing is I see it the opposite way.

Pelosi's skill as a politician is extremely over-rated the same way McConnel's is.

But she was exactly right about impeachment and was doing the obvious thing of waiting until her caucus supported it, one of the cases Mueller referred yields fruit or Trump fucked up more and there was no real long term cost to waiting. That wasn't exactly political 4d chess like some people think. Not even to mention the committee heads were for impeachment.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,707
Two things can be true:

Pelosi is an extremely smart and capable politician who has repeatedly demonstrated her ability to get the most progressive possible outcome out of a given situation,

but she was wrong about impeachment along with all the other Democratic leaders because they are institutionally biased against believing that American democracy is undergoing a catastrophic crisis.
this feels very simple, and yet, here we are.
 

Diablos

has a title.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,591
So if I'm understanding correctly the GOP is likely going to normalize quid pro quo by agreeing that it took place but saying it's not impeachable. At least that's the talk of the town right

Our constitutional crisis continues to evolve into an even bigger mass of poo
 

Gotchaye

Member
Oct 27, 2017
699
I've said before that it seems a little weird to argue that Pelosi doesn't know what she's doing or is insufficiently anti-Trump when it's pretty hard to point at things she did or said that, in retrospect, you wouldn't want her to have done or said.

She was sending strong signals that she didn't want to impeach. People were very mad at her for this. But, in retrospect, that worked out pretty well when the Ukraine thing broke and she could play it as "more in sorrow than in anger" when actually pulling the trigger. Would we really have been better off impeaching right after the Mueller report, with a much less compelling story to tell about why Trump has to go? Would we really have been better off if Pelosi had been saying that she was just waiting for a good excuse to impeach the motherfucker, so that when she eventually called an inquiry Republicans would be able to point to it as evidence that it's a partisan witch hunt?

I mean, yeah, she probably wasn't whipping for impeachment after the Mueller report. But just because impeachment post-Ukraine is good politics doesn't mean that it would have been good politics before. I don't think there was a grand strategy here other than what Aaron says above. I'm just saying that that strategy worked out pretty great, and it's not clear that pulling the trigger earlier would have worked out well. I think it remains unclear whether in the absence of the Ukraine scandal impeachment would have been a good idea at all.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,729
Meh, I still believe Pelosi's job was to take the arrows lobbed at the party until impeachment became impossible to deny. I don't think it was a plan, but I can definitely see her avoiding until it was no longer necessary to.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Like, democratic leadership wasn't against impeachment. Nadler was literally saying that what he was doing was an impeachment inquiry and he'd rather it be formalized. Schiff was also pro impeachment post Mueller report. It was just Pelosi dodging the question and seeing if time would help her case.

It did.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
If this Ukraine thing didn't happen then there would have been 10x more animosity towards Pelosi and Democratic leadership and they would have been forced to start impeachment inquiry on another issue... like Trump and Syria.

That video I posted before... would have been way worse every time Pelosi came out to talk about anything. The demand for impeachment was always there but it took a slam dunk, handed on a silver platter allegation for them to move on it.

I honestly think impeachment was inevitable with Trump once Democratics got the House back. It was a pressure cooker just building up. Support for impeachment in polls was always going to go up after announcement of impeachmer inquiry because the majority of American people do believe that Trump is not fit to be president.


Edit: Absolutely shocked about that Mueller report about AG dismissing it. Because of course he did. Also Buzzfeed has 500 pages worth of Mueller investigation with them now. Expect more tidbits to start coming through.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
I think pretty much every Democratic candidate wants every American to have affordable health care. How they get there is a difference in policy.

If they don't then they shouldn't be on the Primary.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,645


Pete Buttigieg tells union members in Cedar Rapids that he genuinely believed President Trump, when he got into office, would pass an infrastructure bill that he promised and is surprised that he hasn't yet.

Genuinely don't understand how anyone could consider voting for this guy.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Two things can be true:

Pelosi is an extremely smart and capable politician who has repeatedly demonstrated her ability to get the most progressive possible outcome out of a given situation,

but she was wrong about impeachment along with all the other Democratic leaders because they are institutionally biased against believing that American democracy is undergoing a catastrophic crisis.
The left was right to push for it, the center was right to cockblock it until they saw an opening for a killshot to present itself.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
"Just healthcare" isn't a thing. Equal access can be a thing, but even in countries with a state owned healthcare system, it's not totally equitable. Because reality doesn't work luke that, and definitely not in a country where you're never going to create an NHS type system.
 
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