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Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
And Bernie Sanders lost to Hillary fucking Clinton.

Hillary lost because of Comey's stupid fucking letter and swing voters in the Midwest were stupid enough to fall for it. Let's not get this twisted. Especially if you want to blame external factors (like the DNC) for Bernie's loss.
Bernie started with like 5% of the vote and by the time the primary was over, was pretty much tied with her in national polls. Hillary started with a gigantic structural advantage in many ways, and she only barely succeeded in running out the clock against someone that was only running to talk about single payer in interviews and debates up until pretty late in the process when it became conceivable there was a path to victory.

I can't believe anyone would point to the 2016 primary as proof that Hillary was actually a good candidate.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
I mean, I don't want to outlaw the provision of private health insurance, but it's not clear how much of a market for private health insurance there will be with a sufficiently expansive system. At the very least, it will dramatically change the plans employers offer. Like, as of right now, when you turn 65, the vast majority of employers just cut you loose from their health insurance. Medicare is good enough. If we just pass Medicare for all tomorrow, give you access to that plan, but don't outlaw private health insurance, how does your employer respond? Would you even want them to compensate you with a private health insurance plan when they could put it into other benefits or a wage increase?

Which leads us to the Obamacare deillemma that... even if, in theory, you get to keep your doctor and your plan, in practice upending the table and rearranging all the pieces makes it really unlikey that you will. Which means it might actually be the case that we have to choose between not upsetting the system we know and leaving some people without health insurance.

So...like, that's not the way health insurance works. Under the ACA, if they have 20 or more employees, an employer cannot refuse to offer coverage to someone 65 and older. Also, straight medicare is not "good enough." This is one of the main reasons why Bernie's M4A is impossible. Medicare, as it stands now, pays only 80% of costs for patients--they are still responsible for 20%. There are still deductibles. There is no straight drug coverage (that requires a separate plan that is billed and managed independently from the federal government.) Medicare does not cover a lot of treatments and services private insurance covers. Medicare also has a lot of freaking problems! There is zero (i.e. 0) chance that our healthcare market can survive on medicare/medicaid reimbursement rates. It's just not possible. Medicare tends to only cover about 80 cents of the dollar in actually provided care. Providers often lose money seeing Medicare patients, and they make it up by seeing private insurance patients. There is no way we can expand Medicare in the way Bernie is proposing, get rid of private insurance, keep reimbusement rates the same, add trillions in new coverage costs (vision, dental, which is not covered by Medicare in anyway shape or form), promise people they can keep their doctors, promise them their level of care will not go down, and promise them they'll be happier than if they kept private insurance. Almost every practitioner in the US is in either private or group practice. Unless we're going to nationalize the doctors (LOLOLOL) you cannot force a provider to accept Medicare/Medicaid. In fact, a heck of a lot don't because it's not worth the red tape vs the reimbursement rates.

The United State's healthcare system is not Europe's. It's not Canada's. Our hospitals are all nearly privately owned, some for profit some not for profit. We offer a level of service to patients that other places do not do...because it is subsidized by the for profit insurance industry. People may whine and moan that they really hate those guys, but people really like the benefits they get from the system. For example, there are almost no hospital wards in the US. In my area, there are no even semi-private rooms anymore. No matter who you are, you get a private room. There is food made to order from a huge menu, not one meal fits all or a single option. I can literally pull one of my kid's hospital menus right now, and there are 20 some entrees to choose from. This is unheard of elsewhere in the world. Patients are not going to want to give this stuff up with little benefit to themselves.

Any change is going to be disruptive. That's perfectly fine. A public option would require some changes to the system, but not to the extent that destroying 1/3 of the economy would.

Bernie started with like 5% of the vote and by the time the primary was over, was pretty much tied with her in national polls. Hillary started with a gigantic structural advantage in many ways, and she only barely succeeded in running out the clock against someone that was only running to talk about single payer in interviews and debates up until pretty late in the process when it became conceivable there was a path to victory.

I can't believe anyone would point to the 2016 primary as proof that Hillary was actually a good candidate.

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. It also wasn't "pretty much tied." Also, there was never a path to victory. Ever. lol.

But if you want another data point to prove that Hillary was a good candidate, I'll point you to an actually "pretty much tied" primary in 2008 where BARACK OBAMA managed to eek out a minuscule win against this horrible, no good, terrible candidate.

Facts are facts.
 

Crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,093
I don't understand what's so hard about getting a public option.

Meaning private health insurance stays.

A robust public option/Medicare for America/the CAP plan seems like something that has 80% of the benefits of Medicare for All, 20% of the political risk and would swim through a Democratic Senate if the filibuster is gone (which it needs to be do do ANYTHING). I feel like we spend so much time debating Healthcare when it seems already clear where most voters and politicians are on the subject. It's kind of exhausting? Annoying?
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
So...like, that's not the way health insurance works. Under the ACA, if they have 20 or more employees, an employer cannot refuse to offer coverage to someone 65 and older. Also, straight medicare is not "good enough." This is one of the main reasons why Bernie's M4A is impossible. Medicare, as it stands now, pays only 80% of costs for patients--they are still responsible for 20%. There are still deductibles. There is no straight drug coverage (that requires a separate plan that is billed and managed independently from the federal government.) Medicare does not cover a lot of treatments and services private insurance covers. Medicare also has a lot of freaking problems! There is zero (i.e. 0) chance that our healthcare market can survive on medicare/medicaid reimbursement rates. It's just not possible. Medicare tends to only cover about 80 cents of the dollar in actually provided care. Providers often lose money seeing Medicare patients, and they make it up by seeing private insurance patients. There is no way we can expand Medicare in the way Bernie is proposing, get rid of private insurance, keep reimbusement rates the same, add trillions in new coverage costs (vision, dental, which is not covered by Medicare in anyway shape or form), promise people they can keep their doctors, promise them their level of care will not go down, and promise them they'll be happier than if they kept private insurance. Almost every practitioner in the US is in either private or group practice. Unless we're going to nationalize the doctors (LOLOLOL) you cannot force a provider to accept Medicare/Medicaid. In fact, a heck of a lot don't because it's not worth the red tape vs the reimbursement rates.

The United State's healthcare system is not Europe's. It's not Canada's. Our hospitals are all nearly privately owned, some for profit some not for profit. We offer a level of service to patients that other places do not do...because it is subsidized by the for profit insurance industry. People may whine and moan that they really hate those guys, but people really like the benefits they get from the system. For example, there are almost no hospital wards in the US. In my area, there are no even semi-private rooms anymore. No matter who you are, you get a private room. There is food made to order from a huge menu, not one meal fits all or a single option. I can literally pull one of my kid's hospital menus right now, and there are 20 some entrees to choose from. This is unheard of elsewhere in the world. Patients are not going to want to give this stuff up with little benefit to themselves.

Any change is going to be disruptive. That's perfectly fine. A public option would require some changes to the system, but not to the extent that destroying 1/3 of the economy would.



Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. It also wasn't "pretty much tied."

But if you want another data point to prove that Hillary was a good candidate, I'll point you to an actually "pretty much tied" primary in 2008 where BARACK OBAMA managed to eek out a minuscule win against this horrible, no good, terrible candidate.

Facts are facts.
2008 primary was also great proof of her bad skills as a campaigner because that was also a primary she had every advantage in that she squandered to Obama.

It's more like giving the bullpin in baseball a 9 run lead, and they only gave up 8. Yeah, you still got the win, but that doesn't make your bullpin's performance good.
 
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TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
A robust public option/Medicare for America/the CAP plan seems like something that has 80% of the benefits of Medicare for All, 20% of the political risk and would swim through a Democratic Senate if the filibuster is gone (which it needs to be do do ANYTHING). I feel like we spend so much time debating Healthcare when it seems already clear where most voters and politicians are on the subject. It's kind of exhausting? Annoying?
On alot of issues actually.

Once again, old white boomer Republicans are the only one's holding us back on

-Climate Action
-Healthcare
-Gun laws
-Income inequality
-Racism
-
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
Bernie started with like 5% of the vote and by the time the primary was over, was pretty much tied with her in national polls. Hillary started with a gigantic structural advantage in many ways, and she only barely succeeded in running out the clock against someone that was only running to talk about single payer in interviews and debates up until pretty late in the process when it became conceivable there was a path to victory.

I can't believe anyone would point to the 2016 primary as proof that Hillary was actually a good candidate.
I'm just saying if you want to reduce Hillary's ability as a presidential candidate to "she lost to Trump WHAT A BOZO" what does that say about the fact that Bernie lost to Hillary?

Incidentally

https://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-national-democratic-primary

Hillary and Bernie were not "pretty much tied" by the time the primary was over, in fact Hillary actually pulled away from him by June 2016. You also claim she "only barely succeeded in running out the clock" when she blew out Bernie in the delegate race on Super Tuesday and only continued to put more distance between herself and Bernie after that.

This is a very skewed memory of the 2016 primary.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
I'm just saying if you want to reduce Hillary's ability as a presidential candidate to "she lost to Trump WHAT A BOZO" what does that say about the fact that Bernie lost to Hillary?

Incidentally

https://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-national-democratic-primary

Hillary and Bernie were not "pretty much tied" by the time the primary was over, in fact Hillary actually pulled away from him by June 2016. You also claim she "only barely succeeded in running out the clock" when she blew out Bernie in the delegate race on Super Tuesday and only continued to put more distance between herself and Bernie after that.

This is a very skewed memory of the 2016 primary.
That's what running out the clock means. She won super tuesday a month before RCP had her tied nationally, but by then the delegate lead was too large and soon after people started supporting her as the presumptive nominee.

Maybe you can call it a small lead if you want to go by huffington post's aggregate, even though it changes earlier results with later results because of how the chart is programed and is much less likely to pick up a one month result, but the point remains either way.
 

ValiantChaos

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,112
That's what running out the clock means. She won super tuesday a month before RCP had her tied nationally, but by then the delegate lead was too large and soon after people started supporting her as the presumptive nominee.

Maybe you can call it a small lead if you want to go by huffington post's aggregate but the point remains.

Bernie was done after South Carolina. He got blown out there and got subsequently slaughtered on Super Tuesday. If anything it was Bernie running out the clock on a race that was effectively over after Super Tuesday.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
Bernie was done after South Carolina. He got blown out there and got subsequently slaughtered on Super Tuesday. If anything it was Bernie running out the clock on a race that was effectively over after Super Tuesday.
What the hell definition of "running out the clock" are you working on? Hillary had the lead, and the clock ran out before she lost the lead because it was basically over by Super Tuesday.

Bernie never had the lead to even start considering running out the clock.
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,923
That's what running out the clock means. She won super tuesday a month before RCP had her tied nationally, but by then the delegate lead was too large and soon after people started supporting her as the presumptive nominee.

Maybe you can call it a small lead if you want to go by huffington post's aggregate, even though it changes earlier results with later results because of how the chart is programed and is much less likely to pick up a one month result, but the point remains either way.
I'm very glad that Bernie was skilled enough as a candidate to remain in the race longer than his terrifying opponents of O'Malley, Chaffee and Webb to be the man who lost in the the least embarrassing fashion to Hillary.
 

loquaciousJenny

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,457
Hillary should have fought Bernie in mma not this bitch ass gloves on fight dodging around like a fly goddamn

Not my president
 

Baladium

Banned
Apr 18, 2018
5,410
Sleep Deprivation Zone
Screw you guys. I don't know why I even bother when you don't even respond to what I'm actually saying.
8w0Ih3G.gif
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
"Running out the clock" when...there are other legally required primaries and caucuses? Like....what was she supposed to do? Yes, the race was over after Super Tuesday, but the other states still had a right to vote. lol
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,537
"Running out the clock" when...there are other legally required primaries and caucuses? Like....what was she supposed to do? Yes, the race was over after Super Tuesday, but the other states still had a right to vote. lol
Say "LOL fuck you guys, my lead is already insurmountable, we don't need any more primaries since I already got the nom"
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
User Banned (1 Week): Inflammatory Community Attacks and Antagonizing Other Users Over Multiple Posts
"Running out the clock" when...there are other legally required primaries and caucuses? Like....what was she supposed to do? Yes, the race was over after Super Tuesday, but the other states still had a right to vote. lol
PoliERA is one of the worst places I've ever discussed politics online, and there's a lot of bad places I've tried to discuss politics online.

You all are so damn up your own asses that you clearly are incapable of even trying to understand anyone not inside your bubble.
 

Suiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,931
PoliERA is one of the worst places I've ever discussed politics online, and there's a lot of bad places I've tried to discuss politics online.

You all are so damn up your own asses that you clearly are incapable of even trying to understand anyone not inside your bubble.

This is the worst place online?
What sort of bubbles do you post at?
 

loquaciousJenny

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,457
Running out the clock is a pretty disrespectful way to describe her insurmountable lead, Bernie just wouldn't leave the ring. Consider why these folks outside of your bubble don't appreciate you downplaying it
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,923
Screw you guys. I don't know why I even bother when you don't even respond to what I'm actually saying.
I mean, Bernie Sanders launched into the primary offering a very progressive platform and managed to become a legitimate contender to Hillary out of a combination of his platform, a weak field of candidates, Clinton baggage and sexism. He lost the primary but has been instrumental in shaping the platforms of many of the candidates running for office this election.

Hillary wasn't a dumbass. She was faced with an insurmountable level of vile and idiotic hatred. Bernie should be commended for at least posing a legitimate competition for the primary race.

Is that better? (I have said my nice thing about Bernie for the next year)
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
Hillary beating Bernie isn't really indicative of Bernie's chance of winning the primary. 2016 was a moment in time where Hillary was largely assumed to win it by virtually everyone in politics. Even Trump couldn't believe he beat her. Not many people were familiar with Bernie in 2016 either, so that contributed to Hillary getting much of the support from the Democratic side. Fast-forward to 2019 and Bernie has had the time to gain a firm following throughout the country. People now associate his name with Medicare For All, and a person who remains defiant against the wealthy and powerful. It's a completely different scenario this time around.

Also, yes, so many bad takes in the PoliEra thread, but that's to be expected.
 

Suiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,931
Hillary beating Bernie isn't really indicative of Bernie's chance of winning the primary. 2016 was a moment in time where Hillary was largely assumed to win it by virtually everyone in politics. Even Trump couldn't believe he beat her. Not many people were familiar with Bernie in 2016 either, so that contributed to Hillary getting much of the support from the Democratic side. Fast-forward to 2019 and Bernie has had the time to gain a firm following throughout the country. People now associate his name with Medicare For All, and a person who remains defiant against the wealthy and powerful. It's a completely different scenario this time around.

Also, yes, so many bad takes in the PoliEra thread, but that's to be expected.

Your post would make sense, if not for Obama 8 years earlier.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,280
PoliERA is one of the worst places I've ever discussed politics online, and there's a lot of bad places I've tried to discuss politics online.

You all are so damn up your own asses that you clearly are incapable of even trying to understand anyone not inside your bubble.

sorry person who came into this thread to try and rewrite history
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,729
"Running out the clock" when...there are other legally required primaries and caucuses? Like....what was she supposed to do? Yes, the race was over after Super Tuesday, but the other states still had a right to vote. lol
Then they would've screamed that she was coronating herself. Hillary was never going to win with these people, ever.
PoliERA is one of the worst places I've ever discussed politics online, and there's a lot of bad places I've tried to discuss politics online.

You all are so damn up your own asses that you clearly are incapable of even trying to understand anyone not inside your bubble.
The hell is there to understand about the primary being over and its results immutable after Super Tuesday? It's not subjective.
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,923
Hillary beating Bernie isn't really indicative of Bernie's chance of winning the primary. 2016 was a moment in time where Hillary was largely assumed to win it by virtually everyone in politics. Even Trump couldn't believe he beat her. Not many people were familiar with Bernie in 2016 either, so that contributed to Hillary getting much of the support from the Democratic side. Fast-forward to 2019 and Bernie has had the time to gain a firm following throughout the country. People now associate his name with Medicare For All, and a person who remains defiant against the wealthy and powerful. It's a completely different scenario this time around.

Also, yes, so many bad takes in the PoliEra thread, but that's to be expected.
He was the most legitimate threat in a very weak field of candidates and benefitted from that heavily. We are now seeing what happens when he doesn't benefit from people who wanted another option other than Hillary. Had Biden ran, it likely would have come down to Hillary and Biden.
 

Dartastic

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,779
Meanwhile AOC snatched some more wigs tonight.



For men who are allegedly so "proud" of being straight, they seem to show real incompetence at attracting women to their event.

Seems more like a "I-Struggle-With-Masculinity" parade to me.

Hope they grow enough over the next year to support / join LGBTQ fam next #Pride!
https://twitter.com/ksullivannews/status/1167833496385183744

We need far, far more people like her in government.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,280
clinton only barely ran out the clock (took an early lead that only grew as the primary went on) against a guy who wasn't even trying until he saw he had a path to victory (literally spent months accusing the primary of vaguely being rigged after it was clear he mathematically could not win)
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
Both of these primary races do exist in our timeline.

You're comparing one primary with another, and concluding that because the newcomer Obama was able to defeat Hillary, so should have Bernie. There are an endless amount of circumstances that make the 2008 primary and the 2016 primary not equal to each other in respect to Obama and Bernie's likelihoods of overcoming the odds in beating Hillary.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,280
You're comparing one primary with another, and concluding that because the newcomer Obama was able to defeat Hillary, so should have Bernie. There are an endless amount of circumstances that make the 2008 primary and the 2016 primary not equal to each other in respect to Obama and Bernie's likelihoods of overcoming the odds in beating Hillary.

yes, if anything sanders should have had an easier time since clinton had been facing literally years of benghazi hearings and was currently under fbi investigation during the 2016 primaries.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
The issue that Bernie has in 2020 is that his 2016 problems still are not solved. He still has issues with registered Democrats, he has issues with older voters, his support among PoC is not great (and no I'm not saying ALL his supporters are white). He did little, if anything, to address any of these issues. Now, he has a whole new slew of 2020 problems compounding on top of that--a larger field, losing very liberal voters, not being the only "not Clinton" in the race, etc. It's problem on top of problem with nary a solution in sight.

I also want to know what "running out the clock" means in this context...because idk what the alternative is to you know...letting the things that have to finish actually happen?
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
What pisses me off isn't what you all think about 2016. Seriously its a very unimportant topic. What pisses me off is most of you being completely unable to discuss anything you disagree with without being jerks who don't even try to understand where the other person is coming from, and everything just being an onslaught of bad faith discussion as result.

I still like Aaron and some others here, and I think the general political beliefs here aren't that bad, but fine political views doesn't stop people from being assholes and there are too many assholes here to make discussion worth having.
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
yes, if anything sanders should have had an easier time since clinton had been facing literally years of benghazi hearings and was currently under fbi investigation during the 2016 primaries.

At the time, his ideas were sounding too radical for the Democrats, and many of the Democratic voters weren't quite at a point to where Bernie's messaging was resonating with them, or at least not being realistic goals. Everyone must have assumed Hillary's win was inevitable, and not bothering to vote for an outlier like Bernie.
 

adam387

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,215
At the time, his ideas were sounding too radical for the Democrats, and many of the Democratic voters weren't quite at a point to where Bernie's messaging was resonating with them, or at least not being realistic goals. Everyone must have assumed Hillary's win was inevitable, and not bothering to vote for an outlier like Bernie.
Or...and stick with me here....people preferred Hillary's ideas to those he was offering for a plethora of reasons not just "inevitable." Like, there is a reason Biden is still leading the field atm, and it's not all low information voters who are too stupid to understand socialism or whatever. It's not everyone else who fails Bernie Sanders....maybe he's just not a good fit for the electorate!
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
I get that Bernie came out of relative nowhere to mount a significant challenge to Hillary. But he didn't come close, and wasn't getting closer in primary results. He stayed pretty consistent after Super Tuesday. His primary base was people ready for his ideas, not-Clinton voters, and probably a small slice of people who wanted to mess with things (like WV voters).

His problem in 2020 is that there's no "not Hillary" role for him, and a lot of the field is left of where Sanders and Clinton were in 2016 (including Sanders himself).

He never nailed the mass appeal he needed to. And while he's well-known, that hasn't helped elevate him to the top of the ranks.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
Also, people don't just vote for policy, they vote for perceived ability, and personality. In 2016, Clinton and Sanders weren't that far apart in policy. I voted Clinton because I thoguht she'd be more pragmatic and effective in getting those policies enacted. I still have that issue with Sanders.
 

Gotchaye

Member
Oct 27, 2017
702
At the time, his ideas were sounding too radical for the Democrats, and many of the Democratic voters weren't quite at a point to where Bernie's messaging was resonating with them, or at least not being realistic goals. Everyone must have assumed Hillary's win was inevitable, and not bothering to vote for an outlier like Bernie.
I think that the 2020 primary so far gives us a lot of evidence that the last sentence here isn't a good explanation of what was going on. Right? Like, what's a little weird about talking about how well Sanders supposedly did in 2016 despite [Hillary being inevitable / the country not being ready for him / rigging / whatever] is that he's still an underdog. It is clearly not the case that the ~43% (per wikipedia, and if these various explanations of Sanders' early weakness in 2016 are right then really the baseline here should be higher) of primary voters who chose him over Clinton are big-time supporters -- he's polling at at-best 20% right now. And it's not even that half of those people are instead supporting Warren, who often sounds a lot like Sanders, since only about a quarter of Warren supporters say that Sanders is their second choice. So there's not an inevitable candidate, Sanders is much less of an outlier this time around, and he's got great name ID and at least ought to have the most developed organization since he just did this same thing four years ago, and yet he's not that popular.

It kind of looks like Sanders did as well as he did in 2016 because he was a warm body. He didn't concede long past the point where it was clear he wasn't going to win, and he was the only option for a protest vote.
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
His problem in 2020 is that there's no "not Hillary" role for him, and a lot of the field is left of where Sanders and Clinton were in 2016 (including Sanders himself).

I disagree that a lot of the field are left of Sanders and Clinton in 2016. I hear a lot of muddying of the waters in how Harris, Beto, Buttigieg, and Booker are explaining their platforms. Bernie, Warren, and Yang are the only ones who are being direct with the significant change they want to make.
 
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Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
I still like Aaron and some others here, and I think the general political beliefs here aren't that bad, but fine political views doesn't stop people from being assholes and there are too many assholes here to make discussion worth having.
I agree, while there are users who i disagree with but i still like to respond to, there are others who make discussion a lot more confrontational. The lib smugness can be unbearable at points. Ive spent years discussing about global politics and this is the only place where "lol you arent from the US" has ever been brought up

Leftists can be assholes and the whole "not left enough" argument is tiring sometimes but they have never made me feel uncomfotable for being foreign.
 
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