US PoliERA 2018 |OT13| And now the fun starts

Chikor · Dec 19, 2018

aspiegamer said:
TIL my trigger for supporting US imperialism is apparently "not okay at the cost of surrendering the region to Russia."

"Surrendering the region", come on man , Syria was always under the Russian (and before it the USSR) sphere of influence.
This is not a change to the status quo.
If anything, as a regional player Syria is weaker than it has ever been.

If you want a western aligned government in Syria, well, it's not gonna be easy and it's not gonna be cheap, neither in money or blood.

cameron · Dec 19, 2018

Rudy Giuliani @RudyGiuliani

The payments to Daniels and McDougall do not violate the law. Congress has spent millions settling sexual harassment claims against members which are not reported as campaign contributions. Why aren't those Congressmen under investigation.

Autodidact · Dec 19, 2018

Per NYT just now: the Senate passed the CR.

Don't think it's old.

Deleted member 13101 · Dec 19, 2018

ZOONAMI said:
I took from that interview that shes a useless piece of shit honestly.

She leaves the Senate without any realization that the "middle" she was talking about was located squarely in the conservative camp, a luxury for some and an unreachable place for others for too long.

Also, she still thinks economics are keeping people up at night as if it's 1984. There are more base and mortal concerns keeping people awake (will I have the right to work, will I be able to get healthcare for my kids, will my kids get shot at school, will I get thrown out of my own country), not to mention the loss of dignity of work experienced by people in the past decade, that it makes Senators seem out of touch at times.

sphagnum · Dec 19, 2018

On the one hand I'm glad we're not trying to stay forever in Syria in some proxy imperialist war with Russia.

On the other hand I'm very sad about what this means for Rojava.

FreezePeach · Dec 19, 2018

ZOONAMI said:
God I cannot wait until 2019 for the house. Trump is gonna go down before 2020.

Unfortunately, i legitimately think it will just act as an expedited descent of us circling the drain. It will be entertaining at first but I think it might not prove as effective as we hope. We are living the 'already dead.jpg' right now. Trump has basically brainwashed tens of millions into crazy town and i dont think there is any escaping it even after he is gone. Constant division now in Trump's actual government will just mean more norms getting busted as conflicts come to a head. Republicans in official positions have gone full traitor out of cowardice. Trump merging himself with the RNC is like the ultimate final move of destruction this country will face. You have to realize you have like 40% of the country already brainwashed at birth to vote republican. Trump is now the republicans. Only extreme acts and hardship will change that mindset.
I called it when he got elected, the pendulum broke and now we are just in the slow wakeup mode of realizing how fucked it is. I don't see a way out of it.

chadskin · Dec 19, 2018

Gonna be a fun confirmation hearing.

Diablos · Dec 19, 2018

chadskin said:
Gonna be a fun confirmation hearing.

Oh, just fucking great.

If he got along with Mueller before, that's probably something that has changed...

AnotherNils · Dec 19, 2018

cameron said:
Rudy Giuliani @RudyGiuliani

The payments to Daniels and McDougall do not violate the law. Congress has spent millions settling sexual harassment claims against members which are not reported as campaign contributions. Why aren't those Congressmen under investigation.

The "You're going down with us!" defense?

Wilsongt · Dec 19, 2018

cameron said:
Rudy Giuliani @RudyGiuliani

The payments to Daniels and McDougall do not violate the law. Congress has spent millions settling sexual harassment claims against members which are not reported as campaign contributions. Why aren't those Congressmen under investigation.

...because those payments didn't come from a campaign running for President...?

Come the fuck on, Rudy.

Funky Dude Sparks · Dec 19, 2018

Don't be at all salty about McCaskill

Missouri has always been a lost cause state even with medical marijuania and minimum wage increase

Also Josh Hawley fucked up and use AG funds for his campaign (IIRC)

Republicans have always used Missouri as a battleground to attack democracy

Dubbedinenglish · Dec 19, 2018

Chikor said:
But that's exactly tripwire forces.
Listen, the US can say, you attack the Kurds we bring shock and awe or your ass, the US can totally do it, its air force and navy can turn the country into rubble over a weekend.
But you don't do it because deep down, you know that you can't persuade the public that this is a cause worth dying for (and with statistical certainty, kill some Syrian babies for).
So instead, we put soldiers there as would be emotional hostages against ourselves, because omg, fallen heroes, we must do something. And fuck conducting your foreign policy like that.
And you know what, if the US really cared about helping the Kurds there's a whole lot it can do with direct pressure on Turkey and arming them directly, or even just recognizing them politically a bit more. But no, these 2000 soldiers in the Syrian civil war who are doing.... ummmm...... things, are the red line we mustn't cross.

That's not what "tripwire forces" are. Having troops on the Soviet doorstep in Eastern Europe in even smaller countries to act as acceptable loss to prevent inaction is what tripwire forces are. The soldiers in Syria are doing a various range of jobs that aren't related to simply being a presence. They are gathering intelligence, coordinating air-power, and direct training and liaison to local forces.

Simply arming Kurds against Turkey, a NATO member, would be a complete waste of Kurdish lives. Erdogan is very much eager to wage war on the Kurdish minority, he started back hostilities with them using ISIS as pretense. Kurdish people are not only in Turkey, they are in Northern Iraq and Eastern Syria. Further arming them can result in a fight for Kurdish independence on three fronts which again, would result in more instability. Even pushing for more autonomy would be a fault to further fray the relationships with Iraq and Turkey. Being both on the gound and in direct supprot not only keeps a potential powder keg from blowing, but acting as the intermediary between these parties though that presence is how you keep a relative peace.

Funky Dude Sparks · Dec 19, 2018

Hell with Missouri Fox News and ilk has always been piped in by the truck load and most of the people are stupider for it

Chikor · Dec 19, 2018

Dubbedinenglish said:
That's not what "tripwire forces" are. Having troops on the Soviet doorstep in Eastern Europe in even smaller countries to act as acceptable loss to prevent inaction is what tripwire forces are. The soldiers in Syria are doing a various range of jobs that aren't related to simply being a presence. They are gathering intelligence, coordinating air-power, and direct training and liaison to local forces.

What are the goals that those soldiers are trying to achieve with those wide range of jobs?

MarioW · Dec 19, 2018

aspiegamer said:
Crowdsourcing is a gigantic and almost entirely unregulated source of fraud on a massive scale for all involved and I have no idea why it's allowed to exist as-is. Not that it shouldn't exist, since there are perfectly awesome uses for it... I'm just shocked that it does.
5 billion is Trump's random number, and of course he claims it'll come in under budget, too. No clue where he came up with it, but he's been locked in on it for awhile. More reasonable estimates are in the $50-100B range.

Really, I think he wants just SOME kind of money that's enough to start it and then he could argue that it's important to finish it after that regardless of cost. No one has told him it'll take years to start construction, either.

I think it's obvious he came up with that number because he thought he could get that number past Congress, claim it as a victory and that he had protected America, and by the time it would be obvious it was falling short he'd be long gone from office, which point he'd blame that failure on someone else.

Teiresias · Dec 19, 2018

cameron said:
Marianna Sotomayor @MariannaNBCNews

After speaking with Sec. Mattis, Sen. Graham said that he believes Trump made the decision to pull troops from Syria "alone" and without considering military leaders.

"I promised the president one thing: I will help you where I can, but I'm going to hold you accountable. I'm going to do everything in my power if you don't change this decision to make sure you own it so the next president can learn from your mistakes" - Trump's key Hill ally.

Binyamin Appelbaum @BCAppelbaum

He sounds upset. If Trump isn't careful, the Senate might end up passing one of those non-binding resolutions. Or maybe things will get really bad and they'll pass a bill the House refuses to take up.

Kyle Griffin @kylegriffin1

Ben Sasse: "Eight days ago the Administration called a hypothetical pullout 'reckless.' Today, we're leaving. The President's generals have no idea where this weak decision came from ,,, A lot of American allies will be slaughtered if this retreat is implemented."

This actually isn't a bad angle and decent messaging to take. Call it a "Trump retreat from Syria". That retreat label will drive him bonkers.

aspiegamer · Dec 19, 2018

Teiresias said:
This actually isn't a bad angle and decent messaging to take. Call it a "Trump retreat from Syria". That retreat label will drive him bonkers.

Count me in! Can't pass up a chance to try to humiliate him even if he's not necessarily doing the objectively wrong thing.

Imagine, were this any other R administration, how much news the criminal justice reform would be. They're pundit it out to being a possible sea chance in race relations, etc. But Trump? Barely a footnote one evening.

Dubbedinenglish · Dec 19, 2018

Chikor said:
What are the goals that those soldiers are trying to achieve with those wide range of jobs?

Kind of in my post

They are gathering intelligence, coordinating air-power, and direct training and liaison to local forces.

Dubbedinenglish said:
Being both on the ground and in direct support not only keeps a potential powder keg from blowing, but acting as the intermediary between these parties though that presence is how you keep a relative peace.

Kirblar · Dec 19, 2018

International Iron Man said:
Once again, how do you square the circle of her being a black woman advocating for slave labor, which was going to be made up of black and brown men?

She, and you, don't have a response to that, which is why she won't make it out the primaries. You think the Russian propaganda for the left was bad in 2016?

She did not personally advocate for that and disavowed it when it was brought up.

A DA is not going to be going over every court filing and argument personally- this is what you have staff to do, that you're supposed to be able to have better trust than to make that awful argument.

(There are real arguments in this vein against Harris btw, this one specifically isn't a fair one.)

Chikor · Dec 19, 2018

Dubbedinenglish said:
Kind of in my post

"Gathering intelligence" is in your mind a worthy enough goal for deploying US soldiers in a war zone?
Not to mention that this is once again one of those open ended forever wars missions because there's always more intelligence to gather, right?

I really think we need something a bit more robust before we send soldiers to kill and die halfway across the world.

Not to mention that at least historically, this is not the greatest way to collect intelligence, but again, you speak in such vague terms that you can justify any deployment anywhere like that.
There are always jobs, there is always intelligence to gather, just never actual real goals we can achieve, but don't mind us now, you'll remember us when we die or accidentally kill too many babies.

Kraid · Dec 19, 2018

chadskin said:
Gonna be a fun confirmation hearing.

He will pas on party lines. Wheeeeeeee!

Autodidact · Dec 19, 2018

We all need to be prepared for Sinema to frustrate us unless it's a crucial, deciding vote.

But at least she'll be serving looks.

Dubbedinenglish · Dec 19, 2018

Chikor said:
"Gathering intelligence" is in your mind a worthy enough goal for deploying US soldiers in a war zone?

Yes.

Chikor said:
I really think we need something a bit more robust before we send soldiers to kill and die halfway across the world.

Not to mention that at least historically, this is not the greatest way to collect intelligence, but again, you speak in such vague terms that you can justify any deployment anywhere like that.
There are always jobs, there is always intelligence to gather, just never actual real goals we can achieve, but don't mind us now, you'll remember us when we die or accidentally kill too many babies.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. I've made the points in my posts on what the goals are by having US troops supprting factions in the area. These are open ended because this conflict is till open ended. Assad has neither the will or means to rebuild and Russia/ Iran don't really care besides keeping Assad in power. To protect Iraq and to stabilize the potential powder keg we need to keep engaged both militarily and politically in that area.

Chikor · Dec 19, 2018

Dubbedinenglish said:
Yes.

So we're sending soldiers to every war zone in the world forever?
Neat.
Or is there some special super important intelligence that those soldiers are trying to gather?
Can we know what it is?
Can they come home when they get it?
Or maybe we can just not pay attention and hope everything turns out fine only to wake up in 4 years wondering why the fuck we have soldiers dying in Syria.
That worked great in Niger.

Dubbedinenglish said:
I'm not sure what you are getting at. I've made the points in my posts on what the goals are by having US troops supprting factions in the area. These are open ended because this conflict is till open ended. Assad has neither the will or means to rebuild and Russia/ Iran don't really care besides keeping Assad in power. To protect Iraq and to stabilize the potential powder keg we need to keep engaged both militarily and politically in that area.

2000 soldiers can't stop Syria or Russia if they want to push those factions.

Diablos · Dec 19, 2018

Barr is a huge threat to Mueller's investigation. A guy from HW's cabinet. Yeah...

rjinaz · Dec 19, 2018

Barr's sounding like a Republican stooge, but, I think he'll be a lawful one once he has all the information.

Blader · Dec 19, 2018

On the one hand, any attorney general put forward by Trump is inherently compromised and a threat to Mueller and his investigation.

On the other hand, Mueller has been able to skirt around three AGs just fine already.

JustinP · Dec 19, 2018

Surprised this painting of George Washington tearing down a statue of king George didn't come up much during confederate monument debates

Edit: apparently George Washington himself wasn't a big fan of how it was torn down. But it ended up being melted into bullets used in the revolutionary war.

edit2: found the primary source -- unlike how it is depicted in several sources I found, his criticism of how it was taken down was actually limited to the soldiers, not the general public:

'Tho the General doubts not the persons, who pulled down and mutilated the Statue, in the Broadway, last night, were actuated by Zeal in the public cause; yet it has so much the appearance of riot and want of order, in the Army, that he disapproves the manner, and directs that in future these things shall be avoided by the Soldiery, and left to be executed by proper authority.3

Stinkles · Dec 19, 2018

Blader said:
On the one hand, any attorney general put forward by Trump is inherently compromised and a threat to Mueller and his investigation.

On the other hand, Mueller has been able to skirt around three AGs just fine already.

Gift basket for new AGs and acting AGs that says, "welcome to the new job! Thank goodness for obstruction of justice laws, right? Sorry these roses fell into the shape of a horse head! Good night! - luv, B-Bob Miz- Ueller -Eh."

SatelliteOfLove · Dec 20, 2018

Brock Reiher said:
Every time I think about it I get giddy no joke

I'm reading a lecture where the powerpoints haven't been updated since 2017 and it's all like "unfortunately the ACA is unlikely to survive the end of the year" lmao

Im not giddy. The next phase of blood and toil begins. On and on and ever on till we can MAYBE take a day's break or two like what was discussed upthread where I don't get blindsided by murderous neonazi marches or Russian mobster/oligarchs forcing their way into Davos our out of sanctions.

Chikor said:
"Surrendering the region", come on man , Syria was always under the Russian (and before it the USSR) sphere of influence.
This is not a change to the status quo.
If anything, as a regional player Syria is weaker than it has ever been.

If you want a western aligned government in Syria, well, it's not gonna be easy and it's not gonna be cheap, neither in money or blood.

There is no good clean answer for the ME. This is the WORST bad way of solving it by having it bought/threatened out of a compromised stupid bitch of a man where Turkey, Iran, KSA, Israel, and Russia continue the proxy jostling, the warcrimes never go punished goes to 100%, and the Kurds get stiffed by us AGAIN.

Cuz the status quo has drastically, drastically changed in the last 3 years, especially there.

Diablos said:
Oh, just fucking great.

If he got along with Mueller before, that's probably something that has changed...

Mayhaps another looksie at some of the cards will work on this guy too.

Well, I mean I hope so, cuz I use ellipsis too for that exact same reason as well.

rjinaz · Dec 20, 2018

JustinP said:
Surprised this painting of George Washington tearing down a statue of king George didn't come up much during confederate monument debates

That's different. Black people must constantly be reminded of their history or else they'll forget White's are their betters.

Stinkles · Dec 20, 2018

Wilsongt said:
...because those payments didn't come from a campaign running for President...?

Come the fuck on, Rudy.

In this case I'm OK with Rudy burning his own deck. Eating peanuts by the peck. His father called, he would not go, because he loved his peanuts so.

Chikor · Dec 20, 2018

SatelliteOfLove said:
There is no good clean answer for the ME. This is the WORST bad way of solving it by having it bought/threatened out of a compromised stupid bitch of a man where Turkey, Iran, KSA, Israel, and Russia continue the proxy jostling, the warcrimes never go punished goes to 100%, and the Kurds get stiffed by us AGAIN.

Cuz the status quo has drastically, drastically changed in the last 3 years, especially there.

What is the outcome that you want?
I feel the US has not been really able to articulate what its desired outcome for the region beyond empty slogans.

I really don't think we can send soldiers to die if we can't even explain what we're trying to achieve.

Deleted member 13101 · Dec 20, 2018

Up late tonight, getting ready for a CR, no doubt.

Col. Jim Carafano on
@IngrahamAngle
"Trump has made the Middle East a better place. When Trump came into office, ISIS was running amuck in the Middle East. Over a million refugees poured into Western Europe - none of that is happening today. That's all due to Trump."

Zeno · Dec 20, 2018

Why the hell is Trump tweeting at midnight?

Rune Walsh · Dec 20, 2018

Zeno said:
Why the hell is Trump tweeting at midnight?

Sleep-tweeting. Maybe if they wake him, he'll finally have the coronary we're all waiting for.

rjinaz · Dec 20, 2018

midnight kfc fridge raid.

Absent · Dec 20, 2018

Wilsongt said:
More hacking.

In one cable, European diplomats described a meeting between President Trump and President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia in Helsinki, Finland, as "successful (at least for Putin)."

Another cable, written after a July 16 meeting, relayed a detailed report and analysis of a discussion between European officials and President Xi Jinping of China, who was quoted comparing Mr. Trump's "bullying" of Beijing to a "no-rules freestyle boxing match."

The techniques that the hackers deployed over a three-year period resembled those long used by an elite unit of China's People's Liberation Army. The cables were copied from the secure network and posted to an open internet site that the hackers set up in the course of their attack, according to Area 1, the firm that discovered the breach.

Some of the more than 100 organizations and institutions were targeted years ago. But many were not aware of the breach until a few days ago, when some were alerted by Area 1, a firm founded by three former officials of the National Security Agency.

The cables include extensive reports by European diplomats of Russia's moves to undermine Ukraine, including a warning on Feb. 8 that Crimea, which Moscow annexed four years ago, had been turned into a "hot zone where nuclear warheads might have already been deployed." American officials say they have not seen evidence of nuclear warheads in Crimea.

The European diplomats' account of their private meeting in July with Mr. Xi quoted the Chinese president vowing that his country "would not submit to bullying" from the United States, "even if a trade war hurt everybody."

"China was not a backward country anymore," the European note taker described Mr. Xi as saying.

Unlike WikiLeaks in 2010 or the Russian hack of the Democratic National Committee and other Democratic Party leaders in 2016, the cyberattack on the European Union made no effort to publish the stolen material. Instead, it was a matter of pure espionage, said one former senior intelligence official familiar with the issue who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

It also displayed the remarkably poor protection of routine exchanges among European Union officials after years of embarrassing government leaks around the world.

"People talk about sophisticated hackers, but there was nothing really sophisticated about this," Mr. Falkowitz said. After getting into the Cyprus system, the hackers had access to passwords that were needed to connect to the European Union's entire database of exchanges.

Beyond embarrassing.

Owzers · Dec 20, 2018

Wonderment said:
Up late tonight, getting ready for a CR, no doubt.

Col. Jim Carafano on
@IngrahamAngle
"Trump has made the Middle East a better place. When Trump came into office, ISIS was running amuck in the Middle East. Over a million refugees poured into Western Europe - none of that is happening today. That's all due to Trump."

But....he finished the job Obama did.

cameron · Dec 20, 2018

Tweet from 5 hrs ago:

Oliver Darcy @oliverdarcy

Trump's media allies are not happy w/his retreat on the border wall. Breitbart has called it a "cave." Drudge says "TRUMP IN RETREAT." Rush Limbaugh says Trump's going to "get less than nothing." And Fox News leading its website right now with a roundup of frustrated reactions.

Fox News right now:

thefit · Dec 20, 2018

Zeno said:
Why the hell is Trump tweeting at midnight?

The GOP and generals are pissed and made no secret of it on TV so Trump is up late pissed and doubting himself and once again looking for reassurance from right wing dumb ass pundits which explains the tweets. He shook.

just a slowpoke · Dec 20, 2018

cameron said:
Tweet from 5 hrs ago:

Oliver Darcy @oliverdarcy

Trump's media allies are not happy w/his retreat on the border wall. Breitbart has called it a "cave." Drudge says "TRUMP IN RETREAT." Rush Limbaugh says Trump's going to "get less than nothing." And Fox News leading its website right now with a roundup of frustrated reactions.

Fox News right now:

it was always - and only - about the racism for them

Deleted member 176 · Dec 20, 2018

cameron said:
Tweet from 5 hrs ago:

Oliver Darcy @oliverdarcy

Trump's media allies are not happy w/his retreat on the border wall. Breitbart has called it a "cave." Drudge says "TRUMP IN RETREAT." Rush Limbaugh says Trump's going to "get less than nothing." And Fox News leading its website right now with a roundup of frustrated reactions.

Fox News right now:

notice how they tie Trump to establishment GOP with that visual

Iolo · Dec 20, 2018

Trump just needs to release his own apprentice N-word tape that he's been saving just for this occasion when he needs to win back the far right.

aspiegamer · Dec 20, 2018

I think conservative commentators sat down on Monday morning and realized that "HOLY SHIT THIS IS LEGIT THE LAST CHANCE FOR THE WALL HOW HAVE WE FUCKED UP FOR 2 YEARS STRAIGHT ON THIS?!?"

Deleted member 176 · Dec 20, 2018

Iolo said:
Trump just needs to release his own apprentice N-word tape that he's been saving just for this occasion when he needs to win back the far right.

That's 2020's Comey email announcement. November 1st the N-word tape comes out, clinching his re-election.

International Iron Man · Dec 20, 2018

Stinkles said:
Yes I did.

That was rhetorical.

Kirblar said:
She did not personally advocate for that and disavowed it when it was brought up.

A DA is not going to be going over every court filing and argument personally- this is what you have staff to do, that you're supposed to be able to have better trust than to make that awful argument.

(There are real arguments in this vein against Harris btw, this one specifically isn't a fair one.)

This response, right?
https://thinkprogress.org/californi...prison-labor-evokes-chain-gangs-5c768fd447a4/

LMFAO no one believes that shit. Your office, your people. You can delegate authority, but you can't delegate responsibility. Her office argued that shit in court. People she paid, that worked directly for her. Kamala is going to get crushed by a 2 prong grassroots "we don't work with people complicit in locking our own people up" black activists and Russian propaganda to not vote for a woman that locks her own people up. I'm speaking on this from actual family experience. There are black folks that literally stop talking once my cousin (who is an ADA) tells people what she does. Black folks just don't trust the system, and we don't trust folks who trust the system, even though far less black folks have been sent to jail than say, having a white man do her job. Participation is looked at as complicit to a lot of eyes. It's like saying "I'm a good cop". And being the DA, she's gonna be held accountable for every suspect police shooting against a minority that happened on her watch and wasn't prosecuted. She's gonna get crushed by the weight of the failures of the system, and as a former inmate, im 110% okay with people like her falling off the earth.

It's all speculation at this point, but I'll bookmark this so I can get my "told ya so's" in on 2020.

Ac30 · Dec 20, 2018

Wonderment said:
Up late tonight, getting ready for a CR, no doubt.

Col. Jim Carafano on
@IngrahamAngle
"Trump has made the Middle East a better place. When Trump came into office, ISIS was running amuck in the Middle East. Over a million refugees poured into Western Europe - none of that is happening today. That's all due to Trump."

I didn't realise Trump was in office in 2016.

SquirrelSr · Dec 20, 2018

Someone explain the logic behind Trump's decision to pull out of Syria.

Mercurial · Dec 20, 2018

SquirrelSr said:
Someone explain the logic behind Trump's decision to pull out of Syria.

Daddy told him to run and he asked "How fast?"

US PoliERA 2018 |OT13| And now the fun starts

has a title.

PikPok

has a title.

Too many boners

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