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Oct 28, 2017
1,095
Whataboutism.

Russia is poised to invade a foreign territory yet you want to make the discussion about other's military adventurism, while defending Russia's acts as reasonable because they're just defending their backyard from perceived threats.

It's tankie bullshit.
Show me where I said they were reasonable, they're as unreasonable as can be.

Understanding one's geopolitical enemy's motivations is not accepting them as justified.

In here either you accept the only way to see Russia and nato or you're a paid chill for the kremlin it's patently ridiculous.

Again the thread is about Intel (oh I have never heard that one before) from the US about a false flag operation used to justify war. Anyone who would say the same about any other country would be called a conspiracy theorist but we're supposed to just accept that as absolute truth?
 

Deleted member 43

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Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Show me where I said they were reasonable, they're as unreasonable as can be.

Understanding one's geopolitical enemy's motivations is not accepting them as justified.

In here either you accept the only way to see Russia and nato or you're a paid chill for the kremlin it's patently ridiculous.

Again the thread is about Intel (oh I have never heard that one before) from the US about a false flag operation used to justify war. Anyone who would say the same about any other country would be called a conspiracy theorist but we're supposed to just accept that as absolute truth?
1. Except your statements about what those geopolitical motivations are factually wrong, and easily proven to be such. You just keep ignoring that.

2. Russia has done this time and time again over the last 15 years! We believe it because we know factually it's the exact same playbook being used again. And US intelligence is not the only one saying this.

And on top of that, NATO does not want Russia to invade Ukraine. There is absolutely nothing for the West to gain from this conflict. Why lie about it?

Your whataboutism is leading you to make determinations that fly in the face of both reason and fact.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,095
1. Except your statements about what those geopolitical motivations are factually wrong, and easily proven to be such. You just keep ignoring that.

2. Russia has done this time and time again over the last 15 years! We believe it because we know factually it's the exact same playbook being used again. And US intelligence is not the only one saying this.

And on top of that, NATO does not want Russia to invade Ukraine. There is absolutely nothing for the West to gain from this conflict. Why lie about it?

Your whataboutism is leading you to make determinations that fly in the face of both reason and fact.
Okay then, Russia is nazi style pure evil.
Continue on your circle jerk then.
 

Deleted member 43

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Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Okay then, Russia is nazi style pure evil.
Continue on your circle jerk then.
No, Russia is a dictatorship interested in expanding their territory thought the conquest and annexation of its neighbors.

That statement is a fact, and your insistence in saying otherwise is incredibly distasteful.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,095
No, Russia is a dictatorship interested in expanding their territory thought the conquest and annexation of its neighbors.

That statement is a fact, and your insistence in saying otherwise is incredibly distasteful.
Get off your high horse I already said that the annexations are war crimes what more do you want? Cheer for war on Russia?

You guys should get it into your heads that some people on this board has been on the receiving end of US/NATO "Intel" before and are not too eager to trust them at their words. And no not everybody who is against nato is a tankie, the third world has people too some of whom post on this board too.

What's distasteful is that for you the only crime worthy of condemnation is annexation.
 

Deleted member 43

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Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Get off your high horse I already said that the annexations are war crimes what more do you want? Cheer for war on Russia?

You guys should get it into your heads that some people on this board has been on the receiving end of US/NATO "Intel" before and are not too eager to trust them at their words. And no not everybody who is against nato is a tankie, the third world has people too some of whom post on this board too.

What's distasteful is that for you the only crime worthy of condemnation is annexation.
The west is not going to war with Russia.

This thread is about Russia invading and annexing their neighbors. We're not condemning other actions taken by other nations at other time because this thread isn't about those actions or events. You brought those examples in to try to use whataboutism to deflect attention form what this thread is actually about, the very real and imminent possibility that Russia is about to invade and annex land from their neighbors. Your behavior is gross.

You want to talk about crimes of the west? Go to any number of other well deserved threads about those crimes. This one is about Russia's imperialist aggression.
Seems like projection from the US.
How?
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,095
This thread is about Russia invading and annexing their neighbors. We're not condemning other actions taken by other nations at other time
You want to talk about crimes of the west? Go to any number of other well deserved threads about those crimes. This one is about Russia's imperialist aggression.
No no no this is not what this thread is about.
This is what the thread title is "US intel says Russia planning false-flag operation to justify invasion of Ukraine" excuse me if I don't just accept that.

As for the "your behaviour is gross" BS, spare me your indignation. I'm not the nato stan here.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,758
United Kingdom
Get off your high horse I already said that the annexations are war crimes what more do you want? Cheer for war on Russia?

You guys should get it into your heads that some people on this board has been on the receiving end of US/NATO "Intel" before and are not too eager to trust them at their words. And no not everybody who is against nato is a tankie, the third world has people too some of whom post on this board too.

What's distasteful is that for you the only crime worthy of condemnation is annexation.

Let it sink into your head that Russia is the one with 100,000 troops built up on Ukraine's border, has already followed this pattern of behaviour and has already been at war with Ukraine for 8 years.

You can say that you're against Russian actions all you like, but right off the bat you played down the severity of them and layed the blame for Putin's military adventurism at the feet of the West, that it is Ukraine and Nato's fault for encroaching on Russia's border despite Ukraine not having even applied for Nato membership when Moscow decided to initially destabilise the country.
 

Deleted member 43

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Oct 24, 2017
9,271
No no no this is not what this thread is about.
This is what the thread title is "US intel says Russia planning false-flag operation to justify invasion of Ukraine" excuse me if I don't just accept that.

As for the "your behaviour is gross" BS, spare me your indignation. I'm not the nato stan here.
No, you're the "stan" for the expansionist imperialist totalitarian dictatorship.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,758
United Kingdom
While I'm always skeptical of US intel and the US intelligence community, I don't know exactly what the US would gain from this. Yes, the US is an imperialist just as Russia is. I just don't see what the end-goal would be for the US to lie about this as I don't think they want open war.

It goes directly against American interest because a renewed invasion of Ukraine would destabilise Europe and require a security investment in the Atlantic alliance, at a time when the US is trying to tilt its security structure towards the Pacific to compete with China.
 

Deleted member 43

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Oct 24, 2017
9,271
While I'm always skeptical of US intel and the US intelligence community, I don't know exactly what the US would gain from this. Yes, the US is an imperialist nation just as Russia is. I just don't see what the end-goal would be for the US to lie about this as I don't think they want open war.
It's a completely nonsensical argument because the US has nothing to gain from this conflict. It's all bad from the West's POV.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
17,912
It goes directly against American interest because a renewed invasion of Ukraine would destabilise Europe and require a security investment in the Atlantic alliance, at a time when the US is trying to tilt its security structure towards the Pacific to compete with China.

That makes sense. I don't blame people for not trusting US intel though especially people who have been harmed by it before.

It's a completely nonsensical argument because the US has nothing to gain from this conflict. It's all bad from the West's POV.

I agree. I don't think it's something anyone wants.
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,685
DFW
No no no this is not what this thread is about.
This is what the thread title is "US intel says Russia planning false-flag operation to justify invasion of Ukraine" excuse me if I don't just accept that.

As for the "your behaviour is gross" BS, spare me your indignation. I'm not the nato stan here.
You do realize that there are over 50 Battalion Tactical Groups massing on Ukraine's border, right? This is approximately 100,000 soldiers. And that commercial images depict Russian forces doing this?

And you do realize that Ukraine just suffered a massive cyber attack yesterday, right? This is exactly what happened with Ukraine prior to Russia invading it the last time.
 

Meauxse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,238
New Orleans, LA
It's a completely nonsensical argument because the US has nothing to gain from this conflict. It's all bad from the West's POV.

The only thing is that US has recently become a large exporter on LNG. If supply to Europe is impacted, US fills that gap with significant exports... $.

Also, want to make clear that I'm not supporting the other poster claims, just putting forth a financial advantage to the US if euro supply destabilizes via sanctions or Sim.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
17,912
No when the US kills millions of your people you have to accept their Intel again or else you're called a chill for putin.

I'm sorry to hear that, friend. I can only imagine your hurt.

The whataboutism continues. Just fuck off.

I don't think it's a whataboutism to be skeptical of US intel as the topic is about US intel. Now, in this case, it's likely true. But I think we should try and understand people who have been affected by the US intelligence community being skeptical. They don't instantly have to be a Putin shill or what have you.
 

Deleted member 43

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Oct 24, 2017
9,271
You're right it's better to be bombed and invaded by democracies.

No when the US kills millions of your people you have to accept their Intel again or else you're called a chill for putin.
What exactly does the US have to gain from lying here?

And no one is calling you a shill for questioning the US. We question your motives when you try to provide justification for Russia's unjustifiable acts.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,758
United Kingdom
No when the US kills millions of your people you have to accept their Intel again or else you're called a chill for putin.

Nobody is calling you a shill for expressing skepticism of US intelligence. I'm calling you a shill because your opening gambit was...

Want to understand Russia's stance think about how the US would have reacted if Canada or Mexico joined the Warsaw pact, hell just look at Cuba.
Portraying putin as a cartoon villain is useless.

It wasn't even skepticism of what intel is claiming. You were defending Putin's actions with the age old "America would do the same" whataboutism.

What was there for the "West" to gain from the iraq war?

The ouster of Hussein and US access to Iraq's oil fields.
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,685
DFW

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
What was there for the "West" to gain from the iraq war?
Is that a real question? What does the Iraq War have to do with a war between Russia and Ukraine?
It's also commercial imagery, the Russian playbook, and Putin's own words.

People being skeptical of "US intelligence" could just as easily check any number of European news sites, Ukrainian press releases, or even Google Earth. What Russia is doing is not exactly sophisticated here.
Of course, all that too.
Would a Russia apologist say it's culpable of some of the most supreme war crimes?
Apparently yes.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,234
Putin was talking about a "genocide in Donbas" just last month.

www.themoscowtimes.com

Putin Says Conflict in Eastern Ukraine 'Looks Like Genocide' - The Moscow Times

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday said that the conflict in eastern Ukraine between Kiev's army and pro-Russian separatists "looks like genocide," at a time of heightened tensions with the West.

That he would try to stage a false-flag is the least unbelievable thing ever.
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,781
US is way too strong at this game, Putin trying to do the same just makes him look like a fool
 

Rayasab

Banned
Apr 12, 2021
1,954
Seems like projection from the US.
These statements are just naive, the US biggest mistake was downplaying the Russian threat by inexperienced presidents like Obama "Cold War is over"and Trump, letting Georgia, Chechnya, Syria and Ukraine invasions happen without any consequences add to that Putin's support and funding western right-wing extremists and New Nazi parties and allowing them to meet and do conferences in Moscow
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,234
When the only defence for one's crimes is cries of Whataboutism. And again this is not a disculpation of Russia, it's not trusting the US at its word.

Let me ask you this, do you think they're might be a reason some people might not be eager to trust Intel? Think hard.
It's Ukraine's intel, too. Why do you continue to ignore this point?
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,685
DFW
When the only defence for one's crimes is cries of Whataboutism. And again this is not a disculpation of Russia, it's not trusting the US at its word.

Let me ask you this, do you think they're might be a reason some people might not be eager to trust Intel? Think hard.
You are completely ignoring all open-source reporting here, as well as Russia's own playbook. You can take all Western intelligence out of the equation and reach the same inputs, analysis, and conclusion.
 
May 14, 2021
16,731
Interesting how questioning America, which is fine, takes the form of defending Russia, which isn't fine. But it is obvious.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,234
The bloody thread title was "US intel says Russia planning false-flag operation to justify invasion of Ukraine" hence the reaction.
And you've been given new information that both Ukrainian intel as well as observable facts in the ground lend credence to this particular piece of US intel. Shouldn't that give you pause to consider that maybe the skepticism is no longer warranted? Just because you're being skeptical it doesn't mean you're thinking critically.