I'm not sure what response people expect him to say- "Nobody"?
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US Department of Defense confirms it targeted/killed Qasem Soleimani, commander of Iran's Quds Force, outside Baghdad Airport
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I'm not sure what response people expect him to say- "Nobody"?
And that's not my point. Which is why i said "whether he is a bad dude or not".
The US protects tons of bad dudes not on its side, countless.
What the main priority above ALL else, should be is deescalation and a path to avoid war. The only priority there should be
The US isn'g going to "destroy" Iran unless Iran does something incredibly stupid and equally unlikely.
It's hard to say among the general population (the funerals have been massive so far though), but two of the major Iraqi political parties that wanted Iran's influence out of Iraq are pissed as shit about this
yeah there's not gonna be a war between USA and iran in iran. it's the proxy war going on in iraq that's going to escalate.
Just like Iraq. Its easy to fake evidence, or just do it out right because no one controls what we do overseas anymore across boarders, with drones or pretty much anything.
Regardless, innocents will die at a greater pace due to this. And cause America to be less safe due to the propoaganda it instills
There is zero case for aggressive actions as long as we occupy the middle east for geopolitical imperialist gain. Which is why the white house has dropped all pretense of there being valid reasons for their actions
as they should be. USA conducting such an attack in iraq without informing them first is a huge insult to iraq's sovereignty, regardless of how they feel about iran.
You can't fake enough evidence to glass a country or city (Tehran). Even Trump isn't that stupid. And Iran isn't stupid enough to do anything to warrant it - nor are they likely to do anything enough to bring war into Iran itself.
They likely now want the US out and then to deal with Iranian proxies on their own.
Frankly "whether he is a bad dude or not" implies there is a chance he wasn't a bad dude.
There isn't. We can discuss the geopolitical situation or the total damage done by this move as much as we want, but giving this man even the slightest benefit of the doubt is too far.
Killing him in this way wasn't smart, and it may (or will or will not or however you feel) cause more damage than he caused alive. But he was a monster. That is not a subject for reasonable debate.
So perhaps "even though he was a bad dude" would be a better turn of phrase.
Walking away from a deal to stop their nuclear program as it was actually reaping results, putting countless sanctions on them and blowing up what amounts to their sect of state...i am concerned about what lies in the future if this is the trajectory we are heading on.
Dont say Iran, or the US are not crazy enough to do "X"
Pulling out of the nuclear deal was stupid. That is not on the same scale as what you're fearing. Obviously time will tell how this plays out, but the odds of actual war with Iran are low (neither side wants it, especially Iran), and Trump deciding to destroy Iran certainly isn't happening.
What's going to most likely happen is Iraq War 2.5 as the US dumps more troops into Iraq to defend against new insurgencies wanting them out of the country.
I already explained that my point isnt to distinguish his deeds. indeed, that is the narrative of people trying to downplay this move like Saddam on Fox news. I dont care if the guy was bad or not. The action of taking him out was bad for all parties involved and that should not be a debate.
Nah whats most likely is that the US is gonna get kickewd out of iraq by the goverment
If that's the case, then Iran would be smart to allow that to take place and claim it as a "win" for them. Sadly, I don't think Iran will allow that to be it.
There, you just did it again. "if the guy was bad or not." He was. You are downplaying his crimes every time you use that phrasing.
This man killed people I'm related to and thousands upon thousands of others. Stop covering for him. Make your points without giving him that curtsey.
Well I'm assuming a scenario where we refuse to leave, hence the resurgent insurgencies.
Dude. Stop nuancing me to deflect from my point. The guy was bad. I dont care. That's the point! The point is that taking him out is going to cause tons more undue suffering than leaving him alive.
I'm sorry about what happend to the people your close to. but in a geopolitical game where hundreds of thousands of people can die at any time, that's even more of a reason why this should not be acceptable
The point should be he is an evil, horrible human being that deserved to be killed - but deserving and should are two different things.
It's gonna happen regardless of iran.
The US crossed a line when they not only killed solemani but also a high lvl iraqi general. Iraqi militias will go into open rebellion if the goverment don't act on it.
Right, my point is Iran would be wise to allow that to be the end of it and take it as a win, and not take any further provocative actions
Don't you dare accuse me of trying to deflect from your point, and hearing that the man killed members of my family and saying "I don't care" is about the most callus thing a person can say.
You are better than this.
yeah that's a big thing that's being ignored here. they didn't just kill soleimani, they also killed Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis in the same drone attack, and the funerals you see today are for both. he was a big figure in iraq's state-sponsored milita groups.
I have far more insight on the country than any of you do since i fucking live there, yes I can very much say people in general don't want Iran in Iraq and despise them, anti government protests have been going on since October, the same protests that chant against Iran and their leaders.
"But he's pro US" oh the horror, fucking Iran militia have been massacring people in the country without anyone batting an eye, if US is the one who can get rid of Iran then I'm pro US yes.
There are some unverified reports on Twitter about clashes in Iraq. Seems like the Iraqi PMF has said it will start attacking the US from tomorrow and asked the regular Iraqi security forces to stay away. Also Iran has raised the red "یا لثارات الحسین" over Jamkaran mosque.
Edit: The PMF said that they haven't attacked anywhere.
Edit: The PMF said that they haven't attacked anywhere.
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If this does actually happen, I genuinely wonder if there are any sane people left in the White House to advise Trump, "Let them do it," or is the USA at the point where no one can stop Trump from saying, "You've refused me, I'm leveling you as an example to the rest of the world that you don't defy Tru--I mean, America."
I apologize. I didnt mean to insult you, i am simply frustrated.
The man was a bad man, who most definately killed a lot of people.
But when your in a position where a reckless action can cause countless other lives to be destroyed, the situation becomes not about the person involved, but the reaction to that. From what i remember, Bush and Obama were in positions to kill this guy and did not do so because they understood the possible ramifications.
At this point, its become brazen enough that it doesnt matter, and the blood that this action spills is on the hands of Trump and those calling for this stike and strikes like it under the name of keeping tensions high artificially and for a distraction from his own issues.
In the end, it didnt matter how bad Saddam was. The US lied blatantly about WMD and killed over a million people outright with their actions in Iraq and displaced the Middle east up until this day causing countless stories of undue suffering an death on top of that, including the direct creation of ISIS. That cant happen any longer.
Worthwhile analysis: https://twitter.com/shadihamid/status/1213510539432878080?s=19
There will be Iranian retaliation but the chances of all out war remain low. That's not to mean they are zero, but they were also not zero before this assassination. Neither the USA nor Iran want full-on war. Iran's meddling in the region is unpopular to the people who actually live there (obviously split around sectarian lines). The most likely response is to try and push the USA out of Iraq entirely, which was what Iran was doing beforehand too.
There will be Iranian retaliation but the chances of all out war remain low. That's not to mean they are zero, but they were also not zero before this assassination. Neither the USA nor Iran want full-on war. Iran's meddling in the region is unpopular to the people who actually live there (obviously split around sectarian lines). The most likely response is to try and push the USA out of Iraq entirely, which was what Iran was doing beforehand too.
I doubt iran is gonna start a open operation that can be tracked directly to them.
They use their militias to attack the US and keep their deniability up saying 'It wasn't us who told iraqi militias to attack. You dumbasses killed Muhandis'.
there are so many groups (specially shia groups) who are far more OK with iran's presence there than US's. do you consider them iraqi people or not?
i'm sure those groups you mentioned have killed far less iraqis than the US, yet you seem ok with the US. how does that make any sense?
the problem is you extrapolate your own views as the general view of the iraqi people, when it's clearly not the case. it is a view, but not THE view.
Yep, saw It too. Posted this a few posts back
So it begins. For those who chose this, i hope it was worth it
Even supposed democrats...people like Bloomberg are praising the attack, slamming those who call it an assassination(it was an assassination) and essentially also using the "he was a bad dude, of course trump should have done it" line, which is where my ire comes from.
Its really sickening. He's not one who will be suffering over the decision. Just like he wasnt when he dismissed innocents dying from drone strikes.
None of these fucking people who do this shit have any concept or care about the people who will be affected by it in the negative sense.
Even supposed democrats...people like Bloomberg are praising the attack, slamming those who call it an assassination(it was an assassination) and essentially also using the "he was a bad dude, of course trump should have done it" line, which is where my ire comes from.
Its really sickening. He's not one who will be suffering over the decision. Just like he wasnt when he dismissed innocents dying from drone strikes.
None of these fucking people who do this shit have any concept or care about the people who will be affected by it in the negative sense.
Imagine if Bill Barr was in Vienna, and then Brazil drone-striked his car because of the US interning children at the border. "Gee, he was a bad man, child separation is against international law, he had to go." Is that the world we want to live in? Country A killing Country B's guy in Country C because he's "bad?"
Thank you. I understand you being frustrated, I am as well, and I really don't disagree with your main point. I am just seeing way too many people paper over the depth of this man's crimes, either out of ignorance our rhetorical expediency, and it's neither necessary or right.
We can talk about this act and its impact without giving cover to who this man was. It just might take a few more moments to consider our words, and I think his victims deserve that.
What part of Iraq do you live in and what is your religious affiliation? I feel that's quite important to state when making blanket statements regarding the Iraqi people as your opinion on the situation will depend heavily on those two things.
I don't know about opinion of "all people of Iraq" about Iran but even if all of them hate Iran, they should know that US is more responsible for this situation than Iran.
Iran could do nothing in Iraq before 2003 and then after the Iraq war, Iran became so powerful there. So people should blame US too.
It's interesting that this new incident can even make Iran's presence in Iraq even more than before, and people should blame US this time too.
The only way Iran could do something that counts as stupid is if they engineered an attack on our mainland and managed to kill more than 2 people to assassinate one of our leaders in a surgical strike.
Even a cyberattack that managed to kill dozens of people would be a stupid move because despite how much we downplay cyber attacks deaths of that magnitude will piss off certain segments of the population.
That said it doesn't matter if Iran does something stupid or not. If we willingly choose to destroy Iran directly instead of the many other violent responses that doesn't require an invasion or nuclear strikes then we are even bigger idiots for starting WWIII because that's what the attempted destruction of Iran will force the rest of the world to do.
Iran is simply too strong to the point that the infrastructure for the global oil supply could easily be destroyed in that region. It's the one major piece of leverage Iran has to convince other nations to help them resist the US.
OP
OP
Wouldn't al-Abadi still be Prime minister if most Iraqis were pro-US?
Are we still playing the blame game? I'm kind of thinking some in this post want the US kicked out just so there can be an escalation.
I know my fear is because he is the only one doing it currently
A country run by militia.
That's irrelevant, your read on the situation isn't gonna be different depending on where you live, unless you're accusing me of bias and not speaking the truth then that's a different matter.
I didn't say all Iraqi people feel the same, there are of course some that prefer and support Iran, it's only normal with how much influence they have over the militia leaders, but everyday normal citizen in large is pretty much sick of their intervention in our country, I blame the US for letting Iran get this powerful in Iraq as well.
It's really crazy to see people I know in the US who actually lost loved ones in the last quagmire we got ourselves into go gung ho over possibly getting into another. Many of whom were quite vocal about Trump's isolationist policies being a big reason for their original support. Just so frustrating and baffling.
Sanders doesn't need to justify this flare up in hostilities. He's doing perfectly fine in the way he is pushing Congress to defund Trump's plans to mobilize more troops into the region and put back Congress in the driver's seat in authorizing wars before 9/11.
People like Joe Biden need that justification but you have to ask yourself is that really important to you.
TBF Yang has done the same and that's the only good thing I'll say about him in this thread.
It's not important at all but it makes for a great campaign/ debate point. Undoubtedly.
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