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poklane

poklane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,932
the Netherlands
Initial reports of an airstrike on a PMF base on the Iraqi-Syrian border




Same area the US bombed on December 29th in response to the December 27th attack which killed 1 US contractor
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
You know you argued the Iraqis aren't really "independent"? Republicans particularly waged the criticism have since ISIS came about that it's Obama's fault cause if he really wanted to push the issue, he could have gotten the troops to stay ergo, no ISIS. Tbh, it's a good fucking argument. So the theory is Obama needed a way to leave, so he left Iraqi sovereignty be the excuse except ISIS fucking threw the entirety of it in his face and assuming the U.S is a war crime hungry nation, I would find it hard pressed for anyone to wager the rise of ISIS is better than the scenario the U.S never left Iraq.
I don't think I argued that. I'm saying America wanted to leave more troops there but the Iraqi government kick them out.

And I don't want to frame at as Obama's fault or whatever. I think Iraq is a continuous failure of American foreign policy that spans 3 administrations.
We can rank who did worst when we're done (spoiler: it's Bush) but I think that's kinda misses the point, because all 3 administrations were working from pretty much the same shitty playbook. And I think it's way more urgent the US get a new playbook than to see who did least bad things by following that manual.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
That's exactly my point, the public support that mission because there is very low casualty rates for America.
I think if you had hundreds of soldiers dying every week the American public will very quickly lose their appetite for that mission.

Obama initially wanted 10k, the number before the agreement fell through was 3-5k.
 

linkboy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,690
Reno
You know things are bad when even dumb ass Tucker Carlson is talking shit about it

I'm stuck in a car with my dad's bullshit right wing radio on nonstop (my whole family is right wing and it makes me want to beat my head into a wall just to end the amount of bullshit that spews from their mouths).

My only saving grace is that I can put my earbuds in and drown it all out.

Yesterday, someone was trying to push the narrative that Saddam was responsible for 9/11.

They'll throw anything out there, see what sticks and shove it down their listeners throat like the gullible idiots they are.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Obama initially wanted 10k, the number before the agreement fell through was 3-5k.
They kept trying to negotiate smaller and smaller number with the Iraqi government.
It was never zero, but the original plan called for the US to stay there to train the military and it would have taken more than 10k IIRC (the numbers I read were 30k-50k).

Though really, the point I was trying to get across is that Iraqi government kicked the US forces before, and they can do it again, though there is no guarantee the US will agree to leave this time.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
I don't think I argued that. I'm saying America wanted to leave more troops there but the Iraqi government kick them out.

And I don't want to frame at as Obama's fault or whatever. I think Iraq is a continuous failure of American foreign policy that spans 3 administrations.
We can rank who did worst when we're done (spoiler: it's Bush) but I think that's kinda misses the point, because all 3 administrations were working from pretty much the same shitty playbook. And I think it's way more urgent the US get a new playbook than to see who did least bad things by following that manual.

I'm on mobile and era runs like shit on my phone so grammar mistakes are hard to fix. I meant to have a how* there. It wasn't a lot like I replied just before, 3-5-10k at most. The stuff about Obama is just additional tidbits to share.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
They kept trying to negotiate smaller and smaller number with the Iraqi government.
It was never zero, but the original plan called for the US to stay there to train the military and it would have taken more than 10k IIRC (the numbers I read were 30k-50k).

Though really, the point I was trying to get across is that Iraqi government kicked the US forces before, and they can do it again, though there is no guarantee the US will agree to leave this time.

Yes that's what I was saying as well roughly.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Any word on Russia and China's role in this?
JW1f4j9.png


Seriously though, I think there is zero reason to believe that either Russia or China wants the US to regime change Iran.
 

acheron_xl

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,451
MSN, WI
That's exactly my point, the public support that mission because there is very low casualty rates for America.
I think if you had hundreds of soldiers dying every week the American public will very quickly lose their appetite for that mission.

Advances in medical technology + drones = US will never suffer mass casualties ever again. If we fought the second gulf war with Vietnam-era technology, I bet US casualties would've been an order of magnitude higher.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Advances in medical technology + drones = US will never suffer mass casualties ever again. If we fought the second gulf war with Vietnam-era technology, I bet US casualties would've been an order of magnitude higher.
You can't fuck with countries forever, eventually they will find a way to hit back on you.
Colonial powers had to learn it the hard way, and just like the US, they tried to put a price tag that was scary high on any casualties they had, and it can work for a while, but if you fuck with people long and hard enough, eventually they'll figure out they have nothing to lose.
And that road is fucking scary, because if you think 9/11 is the worst that can happen, I think you are a crazy optimist.

Either that or they'll get nukes, because that's the only other thing the US have shown will stop them from bombing you.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Bloomberg is literally the only democratic candidate to side with Trump outright on this...even Biden signals a note of caution.

Makes my earlier threads critisizing bloomberg and getting pushback on it feel super bitter now
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
Don't be confuse those funeral people as the normal Iraqi people, in general Iraqi don't want Iran and their militia to interfere with our country anymore.
i see tens of thousands of iraqi people in the funerals. what gives you the authority to say those people aren't the "normal" iraqi people? some tweet showing 5 men dancing and being happy after soleimani's death, those are normal iraqi people but these people aren't? no matter what you want to believe (i know you're iraqi yourself) he was a beloved person there for many people. people don't show up in thousands to the funeral of someone they hated.
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,717
I'm stuck in a car with my dad's bullshit right wing radio on nonstop (my whole family is right wing and it makes me want to beat my head into a wall just to end the amount of bullshit that spews from their mouths).

My only saving grace is that I can put my earbuds in and drown it all out.

Yesterday, someone was trying to push the narrative that Saddam was responsible for 9/11.

They'll throw anything out there, see what sticks and shove it down their listeners throat like the gullible idiots they are.
I was talking to a buddy from another country and he was confused on how fox news is even popular or allowed to be on t.v. lol
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,055
Advances in medical technology + drones = US will never suffer mass casualties ever again. If we fought the second gulf war with Vietnam-era technology, I bet US casualties would've been an order of magnitude higher.
Thats a pretty bold statement. But might depend on what you consider mass casualties.

A war to topple the regime with either Iran or North Korea by the military's estimation would carry a body count well above anything we have seen since Vietnam.

Just the other year it was estimated that a conflict with North Korea could cost 100,000 lives in a day, and that was assuming nukes weren't used. Now that would mostly be ally and not American lives where our side is concerned, but drones aren't a panacea(yet).
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
It looks like cooler heads prevailed.

i've seen that video, in farsi it just sounds like he has nothing to say and just wants to say something quick to calm her down. that tweet makes it sound like he's letting her in on some ominous grand plan (he doesn't say "everyone will take revenge", he says "everyone will")
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,129
Chile
Russia basically said it was illegal (the last country on earth that should say a country is doing something illegal), and urged restraint. China, I don't know.

I find It pretty funny when the US, Russia and China all call each other on ilegal or inhuman acts

China asked for both party to stay calmed and not escalate things
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
i've seen that video, in farsi it just sounds like he has nothing to say and just wants to say something quick to calm her down. that tweet makes it sound like he's letting her in on some ominous grand plan (he doesn't say "everyone will take revenge", he says "everyone will")

That sounds slightly more encouraging...but still they are going to have to respond. The US has essentially given an ultimatum
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
i see tens of thousands of iraqi people in the funerals. what gives you the authority to say those people aren't the "normal" iraqi people? some tweet showing 5 men dancing and being happy after soleimani's death, those are normal iraqi people but these people aren't? no matter what you want to believe (i know you're iraqi yourself) he was a beloved person there for many people. people don't show up in thousands to the funeral of someone they hated.
This situation is incredibly complex, far more than most are giving it credit for. I sat with my Iranian father-in-law last night who legitimately could not be happier Soleimani is dead, as the man was a monstrous agent of the totalitarian state that ordered the mass killing and subjugation of his own people.

Some will morn him, some will dance on his grave. It depends largely on someone's own politics.
 
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Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Manufacturing consent for war is and has always been the first hurdle that the government has had to overcome with all previous wars. The media will do everything to make this happen, the ratings, even if you're just speculating about war are too good to pass up. They did the exact same thing with Iraq in 2001 & 2002 and they'll do it again.
I'm aware the media likes war ratings, but the way it worked last time was that 9/11 fueled the fervor. Without that the media kinda wanting the ratings isn't going to be enough to drive things, and the media isn't really going all in on the rah-rah war bits now.
 

El sueño

Member
Feb 4, 2018
221
I find It pretty funny when the US, Russia and China all call each other on ilegal or inhuman acts

China asked for both party to stay calmed and not escalate things

You are 100% right on the funny statement. US should be cautious specially considering the partnership among China-Russia-Iran.
I hope it does not escalate because the richest don't suffer at all and usually earn money in wars, the rest of us suffer and die.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
This situation is incredibly complex, far more than most are giving it credit for. I sat with my Iranian father-in-law last night who legitimately could not be happier Soleimani is dead, as the man was a monstrous agent of the totalitarian state that ordered the mass killing and subjection of his own people.

Some will morn him, some will dance on his grave. It depends largely on someone's own politics.
exactly. i'm in iran, and there are many people sad about his death, and many people who are happy. i'm just saying to say the thousands of people who attended his funeral in iraq (his funerals in iran will start tomorrow once his body is transferred to here) are not "normal" iraqi people is, frankly, disgusting. he had a huge part in getting ISIS out of iraq. for that reason alone, it's understandable why he would be a beloved and respected man there for some people.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
exactly. i'm in iran, and there are many people sad about his death, and many people who are happy. i'm just saying to say the thousands of people who attended his funeral in iraq (his funerals in iran will start tomorrow once his body is transferred to here) are not "normal" iraqi people is, frankly, disgusting. he had a huge part in getting ISIS out of iraq. for that reason alone, it's understandable why he would be a beloved and respected man there for some people.

Pretty much...but its easier to stan for the case for the USA attacking Iran to fabricate a case for war than anything else
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,129
Chile
Pretty much...but its easier to stan for the case for the USA attacking Iran to fabricate a case for war than anything else

So do you believe in good faith, despite the reports, that there was an inminent attack against the US and this was done in honest self defense and not to take advantage of this polarizing affair?
 

El-Pistolero

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
1,308
We're about to lose Iraq to Iran over this. No retaliation is even needed on Iran's part, everyone sees what the neocons are up too and they aren't falling for it. Trump handling Iraq to Iran after all the American gold and blood spent there because he's an complete moron.

Iraq does not belong to the US, so they were never in a position to hand it to anyone.
 

Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,567
i see tens of thousands of iraqi people in the funerals. what gives you the authority to say those people aren't the "normal" iraqi people? some tweet showing 5 men dancing and being happy after soleimani's death, those are normal iraqi people but these people aren't? no matter what you want to believe (i know you're iraqi yourself) he was a beloved person there for many people. people don't show up in thousands to the funeral of someone they hated.

That dude seems to have taken it upon himself to be the spokesperson for all Iraqis, to claim the title as the one person who has their hand over the pulse of Iraqi society, and conveniently for them, their pro-US views so happen to represent the Normal Iraqi such that anyone who disagrees with them is some kind of Other with this or that defect in their reasoning.

It's bullshit. Always nice to get perspective from people with actual proximity to a situation/place, but please stop pretending that you're representative of The Default or whatever.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
exactly. i'm in iran, and there are many people sad about his death, and many people who are happy. i'm just saying to say the thousands of people who attended his funeral in iraq (his funerals in iran will start tomorrow once his body is transferred to here) are not "normal" iraqi people is, frankly, disgusting. he had a huge part in getting ISIS out of iraq. for that reason alone, it's understandable why he would be a beloved and respected man there for some people.
Yes. It's more fair to say he was loved by conservatives and hated by liberals, but both those camps are the "normal" populace of Iraq and Iran.

But even that's a simplification, as I know conservatives who are in general supportive of the government but still see Soleimani as an extremist who they are better off without.
 

Rocket Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,509
exactly. i'm in iran, and there are many people sad about his death, and many people who are happy. i'm just saying to say the thousands of people who attended his funeral in iraq (his funerals in iran will start tomorrow once his body is transferred to here) are not "normal" iraqi people is, frankly, disgusting. he had a huge part in getting ISIS out of iraq. for that reason alone, it's understandable why he would be a beloved and respected man there for some people.

There should be no doubt that this has unified the reformists and anti-regime factions in Iran and Iraq. There are people cheering this, but the majority of people there are dead set for revenge if we go by all the reporting.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
That dude seems to have taken it upon himself to be the spokesperson for all Iraqis, to claim the title as the one person who has their hand over the pulse of Iraqi society, and conveniently for them, their pro-US views so happen to represent the Normal Iraqi such that anyone who disagrees with them is some kind of Other with this or that defect in their reasoning.

It's bullshit. Always nice to get perspective from people with actual proximity to a situation/place, but please stop pretending that you're representative of The Default or whatever.
yeah, not the first time i see similar sentiments from him either. he pretty much blames everything that's wrong in iraq on iran while ignoring the big elephant in the room (USA). and he's not very knowledgable about the history of iran an iraq (didn't even know that iraq made chemical attack on iran during the war), all the while being more than comfortable with USA's presence and actions in the country, including brushing off USA bombing iraq a few days ago during the embassy attacks.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Exactly, why the FUCK are people here sympathizing with this motherfucker. Who shot 1000+ protesters in Iran last month? The Revolutionary Guards. Escalation isn't smart and so many innocents will die but well I don't give a fuck that he's dead.

Because regardless of whether he is a bad guy or not. hundreds of thousands or even millions of innocent people will die if the USA's wish to destroy iran comes true. Just like in Iraq. And this is not acceptable under any circumstance.

Its easier for people to sympathize with a bad dude who fought against ISIS over an imperialistic military regime more powerful than all of the world's militaries combined that operates without impunity and is currently controlled by an even more unhinged maniac
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
There should be no doubt that this has unified the reformists and anti-regime factions in Iran and Iraq. There are people cheering this, but the majority of people there are dead set for revenge if we go by all the reporting.
The reporting is wrong. This is an incredibly divisive issue.

Because regardless of whether he is a bad guy or not. hundreds of thousands or even millions of innocent people will die if the USA's wish to destroy iran comes true o Just like in Iraq. And this is not acceptable under any circumstance.
There is no question he was a bad guy. This is a man who brought Iraqi fighters into Iran to kill his own people because he was worried Iranian soldiers wouldn't do it.
 
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