Unpaid internships should be illegal

BAD · Feb 17, 2020

I was listening to a story on unpaid internships in expensive cities like Washington DC.

I went to school in Orlando and was broke. I skipped applying to the selection of prestigious unpaid internships in my city that had a "Business Professional" dress code. I didn't have suits and was too poor to take that hit for something unpaid. I had a suit for interviews and that's it, I couldn't invest in another without the chance to pay for it. And my city isn't even super expensive. But regardless, I was priced out of several I wanted because they required suits when I asked. Maybe I'm dumb and there's obvious loopholes I could have figured out.

I landed an unpaid internship in my field with a business casual dress code, but they were far from my school, so I still took a hit of a couple hundred dollars in tolls and gas over the semester because they didn't pay anything.

I certainly wasn't able to consider the stipend or unpaid opportunities in other cities like Chicago or NYC that required summer lodging you pay yourself like one of my rich classmates got.

It seems like companies should have to offer travel cost at minimum to interns. And governments should offer tax credits to nonprofits who can't afford to pay so that they can offer something.

sangreal · Feb 17, 2020

of course they should. blatant scam. Everyone recognizes this when it's the NCAA paying people with "opportunity" or randoms online paying with "exposure" but for some reason this system gets a pass

They were severely restricted by Obama so naturally Trump revived them

Deleted member 52442 · Feb 17, 2020

seems like something bernie would target

Deception · Feb 17, 2020

But how else would companies be able to exploit the most vulnerable for free labor?

Dr_LawyerCop · Feb 17, 2020

They are illegal. Unless you're working for a non-profit or getting college credit. It's been awhile since I looked into it though.

UnholyChocolate · Feb 17, 2020

A company in the same building interviews people in the lobby of our floor. They make people work for them for a week without pay to make sure they are a "good fit". That's complete bullshit as well.

UnpopularBlargh · Feb 17, 2020

Unpaid internships are just another way for companies to screw over workers.

DPT120 · Feb 17, 2020

I agree. I was looking for internships and eliminated all the ones that were unpaid. It's surprising how many don't flat out say it. I applied for an internship abroad but didn't realize it was unpaid until a friend who went through the same program told me.

MrHedin · Feb 17, 2020

It's simple, you do work you get paid. You can then decide whether or not the pay is worth for the work, commute, anything extra.

Also, I work at a non-profit and we pay our interns without an issue so that shouldn't really be a factor I don't think.

Dr_LawyerCop · Feb 17, 2020

UnholyChocolate said:
A company in the same building interviews people in the lobby of our floor. They make people work for them for a week without pay to make sure they are a "good fit". That's complete bullshit as well.

Report them to your states division of Wage and Hour. I'm sure the state would like that missing payroll tax.

L Thammy · Feb 17, 2020

They're supposed to be illegal here, but they still happen.

nightstalker962 · Feb 17, 2020

The best is when they don't even reimburse you for parking.

sangreal · Feb 17, 2020

Kegels said:
seems like something bernie would target

Sure, for a few years until the courts weigh in or a Republican gets elected

Executive action isn't a means for long-term change. It doesn't matter who is the white house, it matters who is in Congress

DOL pulls back Obama-era guidance on payment for interns

The U.S. Department of Labor has rescinded guidance issued during the Obama administration that had created a new test under federal law for determining when interns must be paid, after several appeals courts rejected its approach.

www.reuters.com

regenhuber · Feb 17, 2020

It depends.
If the internship is shorter than 6 weeks and the work is purely about getting an education (some universities here require them), then it's fine I guess.

If we're talking about people who finished their education and are paid in "experience" then no.

UnholyChocolate · Feb 17, 2020

Dr_LawyerCop said:
Report them to your states division of Wage and Hour. I'm sure the state would like that missing payroll tax.

I'm in the UK, don't know how hmrc would handle it.

ElectricBlanketFire · Feb 17, 2020

Sibylus · Feb 17, 2020

Absolutely. Know what else should be illegal? Unpaid housework :)

djplaeskool · Feb 17, 2020

L Thammy said:
They're supposed to be illegal here, but they still happen.

They're technically legal (in the US) so long as the position and its terms meet FLSA regulations dictating the primary beneficiary.
This is pretty easy to fudge, as you can essentially call it a "Training" period and probably get away with it.

electricblue · Feb 17, 2020

I voted yes even though I hired an unpaid intern once who emailed me and asked for it
I now think it was the wrong thing to do even though it really helped that person, it disadvantages those who can't support themselves in that situation.

Deleted member 7130 · Feb 17, 2020

I believe, at the very least, any person deserves to have their needs met and laborers have fair wages.

the magical kitsune · Feb 17, 2020

If you are international (say right out of college) and just desperate to find a job before the literal TIME CLOCK of a whole 90 days runs out and your visa status is cancelled, you'll take what you can get. It's even better when most companies just don't want to hire you because you're not an american -> more paperwork hassle, and all the while time is ticking and it's either you landing a job in your field of study within three months or you're booted the fuck out. Lovely country

(yes this is related to personal stories)

LordofPwn · Feb 17, 2020

at minimum it should cover travel and living expenses and only offered to students. all other internships should be paid at minimum $10/hr

Deleted member 31817 · Feb 17, 2020

My friend is getting her education degree rn so she's student teaching. She works 5 days a week, 730am to 230pm. She doesn't get paid for any of it.

It's fuckinf absurd.

nanhacott · Feb 17, 2020

They're completely illegal in Canada, unless you're a student and receiving University credit for your work.

This is important: if you're in Canada and you spot an unpaid internship, report them. There are people who actually care. I've seen multiple companies in Vancouver get heavily fined, and forced to give all their interns (past and present) backpay.

Ziltoidia 9 · Feb 17, 2020

But dat experience!

Cenauru · Feb 17, 2020

I've been trying to find internships so I can go from my part-time job to something in my field and the majority of them want me to work the max hours you can before it becomes full-time for free and just abandon my only source of income.

djplaeskool · Feb 17, 2020

Psychoward said:
My friend is getting her education degree rn so she's student teaching. She works 5 days a week, 730am to 230pm. She doesn't get paid for any of it.

It's fuckinf absurd.

This is the point where my little sister tapped out of Education as a career.
She had to put up with a quarter's worth of teaching elementary schoolers, didn't get paid, and learned she can't stand dealing with kids that many hours a day.
She switched to Library and Archival Sciences and never looked back.

Kyrios · Feb 17, 2020

Psychoward said:
My friend is getting her education degree rn so she's student teaching. She works 5 days a week, 730am to 230pm. She doesn't get paid for any of it.

It's fuckinf absurd.

And the work doesn't stop after 2:30 either. Grading, planning, and whatnot after classes are over. Usually the university has a class for student teachers to attend as well like once a week.

Saro · Feb 17, 2020

Worked for a non profit in NYC for 9 months straight, had to do my own timesheets and was told that even getting a travel stipend ($121/month) for travel to work was "a big ask".

This nonprofit's big sell to clients is that they are so cheap because they have unpaid interns doing all the work. I saw that on one of the social media team's slides.

It should be illegal for any work sector to do so.

Deleted member 31817 · Feb 17, 2020

Kyrios said:
And the work doesn't stop after 2:30 either. Grading, planning, and whatnot after classes are over. Usually the university has a class for student teachers to attend as well like once a week.

Oh yeah that too lol, I got dinner with her the other day and she was in the middle of grading.

Deleted member 37233 · Feb 17, 2020

It should be forbidden to not pay interns if you company is of a certain size and has a certain income.
Little, family-owned companies for example could struggle with it if you are too rigid with such a law.

TheRuralJuror · Feb 17, 2020

Psychoward said:
My friend is getting her education degree rn so she's student teaching. She works 5 days a week, 730am to 230pm. She doesn't get paid for any of it.

It's fuckinf absurd.

my wife is almost to that point and it really fucking sucks that we have to wonder what we're going to do money-wise for what's a full work week. Really frustrating tbh.

Syriel · Feb 17, 2020

Deception said:
But how else would companies be able to exploit the most vulnerable for free labor?

A company isn't generally getting "free (or cheap) labor" with an internship.

An internship is designed to teach the student that is in the role for 6-12 weeks. That's why they're restricted to students and why college credit usually applies. It's not a first job out of college. It's basic work training that is part of a graduation requirement.

Intern projects are designed around teaching a skill. Yes, they can be actual business projects, but they take longer because they're not being done by an experienced worker. All the work an intern does is reviewed, feedback is given, etc.

The companies that I've worked for in the SF area have all paid interns because the cost of living is so high out here, but for all of them, the "cost" of an intern was higher than the paycheck. The "benefit" of running internships is that the company also gets to sell itself to the students, so that when they do graduate in a year, they often have a job waiting for them, without the need for a formal interview.

Kyrios · Feb 17, 2020

Psychoward said:
Oh yeah that too lol, I got dinner with her the other day and she was in the middle of grading.

Yuuup, don't miss those days. Exhausted and broke since I was only able to work two days a week at my job at the time. I remember I got into a pretty heated argument with one of my professors since he wanted me to quit or leave my job for those 4 months and I practically told him then he should pay my bills and gas money or fuck off.

Syriel · Feb 17, 2020

the magical kitsune said:
If you are international (say right out of college) and just desperate to find a job before the literal TIME CLOCK of a whole 90 days runs out and your visa status is cancelled, you'll take what you can get. It's even better when most companies just don't want to hire you because you're not an american -> more paperwork hassle, and all the while time is ticking and it's either you landing a job in your field of study within three months or you're booted the fuck out. Lovely country

(yes this is related to personal stories)

That isn't specific to internships. What you're talking about is the problem of every international student in pretty much every country. Once your student visa lapses, you're told to leave. Trying to find a job outside your country of citizenship is difficult all around.

Psychoward said:
My friend is getting her education degree rn so she's student teaching. She works 5 days a week, 730am to 230pm. She doesn't get paid for any of it.

It's fuckinf absurd.

Saro said:
Worked for a non profit in NYC for 9 months straight, had to do my own timesheets and was told that even getting a travel stipend ($121/month) for travel to work was "a big ask".

This nonprofit's big sell to clients is that they are so cheap because they have unpaid interns doing all the work. I saw that on one of the social media team's slides.

It should be illegal for any work sector to do so.

These two examples don't sound like internships, so much as straight up exploitation.

Deception · Feb 17, 2020

Syriel said:
A company isn't generally getting "free (or cheap) labor" with an internship.

An internship is designed to teach the student that is in the role for 6-12 weeks. That's why they're restricted to students and why college credit usually applies. It's not a first job out of college. It's basic work training that is part of a graduation requirement.

Intern projects are designed around teaching a skill. Yes, they can be actual business projects, but they take longer because they're not being done by an experienced worker. All the work an intern does is reviewed, feedback is given, etc.

The companies that I've worked for in the SF area have all paid interns because the cost of living is so high out here, but for all of them, the "cost" of an intern was higher than the paycheck. The "benefit" of running internships is that the company also gets to sell itself to the students, so that when they do graduate in a year, they often have a job waiting for them, without the need for a formal interview.

I think people know why internships can be beneficial, but obviously this is aimed at the companies exploiting the system.

Deleted member 39374 · Feb 17, 2020

Unpaid internships are total tax evasion (NOT avoidance) and HR exploitation schemes that have become culturally normalized, shit needs to fucking stop and be outlawed asap

CA do your thing

SageShinigami · Feb 17, 2020

Sibylus said:
Absolutely. Know what else should be illegal? Unpaid housework :)

...What's this got to do with the thread, exactly?

LastCaress · Feb 17, 2020

All work should be paid. If you're learning and under the direct supervision of someone at all times, and as part of a structured learning program then it's ok to not pay.

Sibylus · Feb 17, 2020

SageShinigami said:
...What's this got to do with the thread, exactly?

Another flagrant example of stolen value that immediately came to mind.

SageShinigami · Feb 17, 2020

Sibylus said:
Another flagrant example of stolen value that immediately came to mind.

lol. It's a thread unto itself, because that's a discussion that definitely has far more murkiness to it than "spend four to six hours a day at this business for free".

Sibylus · Feb 17, 2020

SageShinigami said:
lol. It's a thread unto itself, because that's a discussion that definitely has far more murkiness to it than "spend four to six hours a day at this business for free".

It could be many threads unto themselves.

I don't see it as murky.

Tamanon · Feb 17, 2020

I mean, I came from IT where everything was paid, but there are industries where the internship is legit about getting someone to love a field, and they don't have the extra funding.

I think a requirement is a bit much, as long as transparency is there.

shaneo632 · Feb 17, 2020

Yup. On the job trainees should be paid a liveable wage. If you want the economy to expand and flourish this is basic IMO.

TheBaldwin · Feb 17, 2020

Never let people think working hard means working for free

Hollywood Duo · Feb 17, 2020

I agree for the most part unless there is some legit guarantees of future employment

Gigglepoo · Feb 17, 2020

UnholyChocolate said:
A company in the same building interviews people in the lobby of our floor. They make people work for them for a week without pay to make sure they are a "good fit". That's complete bullshit as well.

I had to do that for a gig I didn't get but actually got paid during my week. You know, because it was a real job and I was doing real work.

Apparently, the work I produced was just terrible :(

CallmeDave · Feb 17, 2020

Agreed. Finished my student teaching last spring and recently graduated. Not only was the internship unpayed, but you still have to pay the 14 credits the semester was worth to the university. At least my mentor teacher took some days off occasionally so I could at least be payed for subbing.

Reym · Feb 17, 2020

I agree. It's exploitation, pure and simple.

LastCaress · Feb 17, 2020

Lichtsang said:
It should be forbidden to not pay interns if you company is of a certain size and has a certain income.
Little, family-owned companies for example could struggle with it if you are too rigid with such a law.

If you're doing work, you should be paid. If the company can't afford you, then they should not have you work for them.

Unpaid internships should be illegal

Should unpaid internships be eliminated?

Yes, any work should offer a travel stipend or direct payment.

No, companies shouldn’t have to pay interns and students to work.

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