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DeSolos

Member
Nov 14, 2017
537
God the Union X thing makes me so fuxking mad.


Fuck those gatcha people

They are the unsung heroes keeping the KH brand financially relevant(providing a constant revenue stream) while KH3 was in development. They justified the crazy money that went into all the CG, live orchestra music, Rutger Hauer, and all that other shit that you saw in the game that made you say "DAMN, that's some fucking money right there."
 

7th_heaven

Banned
Nov 21, 2018
534
Agreed. The emotional connection Nier built really made that moment shine, this came out of nowhere and quite frankly it didn't really make a whole lot of sense. If anything it would leave most people confused as to who is this random kid that just showed up and looks back at the camera for a split second. Why does Sora not react to it? Why does no one else question what happened beyond one or two lines?
He in back cover movie so I can not say he is random kid lol
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,140
Singapore
They're better integrated into the story than they have been for a long time, though. The Organization actually cares about what's going on in each of the worlds, and thematically they all tie together in some way.

The only one that's kinda dubious is the Caribbean, but even that has a good payoff with Vexen and Luxord being completely wrong about the nature of the box and Davy Jones's heart.
I think as funny/cute mini-stories on their own, the Disney Worlds are fine because they play with the original properties and the Kingdom Hearts original stuff in fun ways. He's not wrong about the Disney part of the game being totally disconnected from the actual KH3 story that is being told though. Every world was just a wild goose chase for everyone involved, and they don't matter at all.

New Seven Hearts?
Black Box?
The nature of hearts in inanimate objects?
Negative emotions as a power source?

All interesting ideas that seem like they're leading to something towards the climax, but really, none of them mattered. They were all red herrings. The only thing that mattered was Sora realizing that NONE of that mattered and the power was within himself all along.
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,034
Why, though? We've seen that the light is objectively good and darkness is objectively bad. Unless you want to play a game where you play as the villains, I guess.
I mean, I kinda do.

I mean Days and Terra's story in BBS had you doing bad stuff but you were being misguided. I'd like to see an actual villainous protagonist, as unrealistic a chance it has at happening.
 

Rellyrell28

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,883
Even without altering the actual plot development of "Kairi still weak, ends up being killed, Sora has to sacrifice himself to bring her back", I feel like there's quite a few ways that Kairi could've gotten a better spotlight and handling of her character.

For example, if I were writing the Keyblade War sequence:
- I'd make it so that from the very beginning of the Final World sequence, it's shown that Kairi was the one who saved Sora ( basically both Kairi and Sora make it to the Final World )
- you play as 2-party team (Sora and Kairi) during the Final World sequence and Waking the Dead sequence going from world-to-world to revive the dead guardians
- highlight that it was Kairi's light and strength that kept both of them alive during the whole thing (because power of waking is dangerous etc etc)
- don't have Xemnas kidnap Kairi and she follows you to the top
- or even if Xemnas kidnaps Kairi, you save her after defeating Xemnas
- Xehanort decides to attack/kill Sora to forge final key
- Kairi steps in between to take the blow and die to protect him
Kairi: It's okay I'll know you'll find me
That would produce the tears.
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
18,995
The very fact that union X is such a terribly executed attempt at nier 2's ending makes me so mad
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,154
NYC
Agreed. The emotional connection Nier built really made that moment shine, this came out of nowhere and quite frankly it didn't really make a whole lot of sense. If anything it would leave most people confused as to who is this random kid that just showed up and looks back at the camera for a split second. Why does Sora not react to it? Why does no one else question what happened beyond one or two lines?
I think the moment was really emblematic of the problem with Nomura's writing: He has 0 interest in showing us why something is cool because it's easier to tell us that something was cool and special. I had 0 context for what was happening besides recognizing Ephemer and it was only halfway through that I realized the names were actual people. So I was just giggling over how silly the whole scene was.

Maybe he tried showing us that without the Union X moment everyone would die, but they really made it seem like all that was needed was Lingering Will showing up to fuck up Terranort. And then immediately after we see that Yen Sid could do something similar to the Union X moment. Nomura told me that I needed the power of friendship (from people Sora never knew) but I didn't feel that way. It was just pure flash and fan service. Which is fine! But it's also incredibly silly as a moment.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,140
Singapore
God the Union X thing makes me so fuxking mad.


Fuck those gatcha people
The very fact that union X is such a terribly executed attempt at nier 2's ending makes me so mad
Lol.

flat,1000x1000,075,f.jpg
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,154
NYC
It's not trying to be Automata's ending. It has some very light similarities.
It was a shmup segment that relied on other people to complete and was meant to be a very big "WE CAN ALL DO THIS TOGETHER, AS ONE!!!!" Moment. That is literally was the ending I'm speaking about.

Just because I'm not shmupping against the developers doesn't mean it wasn't more or less a rip off. I just didn't have a chance to fail because, again, Nomura would rather tell than show.

Edited to hide what I'm talking about! Feel bad for spoiling a different game.
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
If we're shitting on Kairi, could we talk about Axel for a second? He spent all of DDD being a badass and set up to be important in the final battle only to stand around confused for 90% of the game in KH3
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,140
Singapore
If we're shitting on Kairi, could we talk about Axel for a second? He spent all of DDD being a badass and set up to be important in the final battle only to stand around confused for 90% of the game in KH3
It's unfortunate but I think Kairi's condition is contagious. When he was sent with Kairu to "train", he immediately got infected with inconsequentialitis. :(

Edit: Damn you Xenosaga!!!!! Hahahahahaha.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,484
Why, though? We've seen that the light is objectively good and darkness is objectively bad. Unless you want to play a game where you play as the villains, I guess.

This actually kind of bugged me a little bit. Riku's whole arc being about finding balance within himself feels kind of fucked up by Riku's balance playing no part in the last two games and darkness being the ultimate evil.
 

Berordn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,738
NoVA
I think as funny/cute mini-stories on their own, the Disney Worlds are fine because they play with the original properties and the Kingdom Hearts original stuff in fun ways. He's not wrong about the Disney part of the game being totally disconnected from the actual KH3 story that is being told though. Every world was just a wild goose chase for everyone involved, and they don't matter at all.

New Seven Hearts?
Black Box?
The nature of hearts in inanimate objects?
Negative emotions as a power source?

All interesting ideas that seem like they're leading to something towards the climax, but really, none of them mattered. They were all red herrings. The only thing that mattered was Sora realizing that NONE of that mattered and the power was within himself all along.
I mean, none of them matter in the long run because Xehanort is always 18 steps ahead of anyone which kinda makes him a bad antagonist, but they at least bother to explain what the heck they're doing there this time.

New Seven Hearts was them pushing Sora to keep building up his seven because they had alternatives if he didn't deliver - it's basically the only tension the story has until the finale. It also shows that they can manipulate a lot of stuff behind the scenes. In Arendelle, they point out that they were able to find two new princesses specifically because of what they did by manipulating Hans's darkness.
Hearts in inanimate objects ties directly into the whole replica deal, and it's a loose explanation about how Xehanort is able to take over people as well as bring his past selves back in some way
Negative emotions as power was just a way to tie Vanitas into the story admittedly, but there's at least a scene about how he wanted to use the factory to fill the worlds with unversed. I'll concede that they payoff there is kinda weak, but it makes some sense why he'd seek the place out.

The only thing that's really left dangling is the Black Box, and we already knew that there wasn't going to be a payoff until 4.

I think the real issue is that we all forget that KH is really never anything more than a series of vignettes and the main arc is only ever an excuse to visit the Disney worlds for whatever reason (find the princesses of heart, find Kairi and Riku, hunt down a bunch of guys in black cloaks). If we ever remove that from the equation, we've got about 5 hours of nonsense with basically no tension, since nothing happens in any of the original worlds either except set up the reason they're exploring Disney worlds in the first place.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,661
somebody correct me if i'm wrong on this but didn't we get an entire diatribe from sora to repliku in CoM about how he's his own person with his own heart and ~unique~ and all that other feel-good stuff?

so quoi de la fuck

Yeah, but apparently, he's not Roxas or Xion enough to deserve his own life.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Its a pull back from despair utilitizing active players in a game in a shoot em up section.


It's a flagrant rip off.
Similar in ways. Inspired by, maybe. Rip-off, no.

It was a shmup segment that relied on other people to complete and was meant to be a very big "WE CAN ALL DO THIS TOGETHER, AS ONE!!!!" Moment. That is literally was the ending I'm speaking about.

Just because I'm not shmupping against the developers doesn't mean it wasn't more or less a rip off. I just didn't have a chance to fail because, again, Nomura would rather tell than show.

Edited to hide what I'm talking about! Feel bad for spoiling a different game.
I love Automata to death, but I'm not going to pretend that Nomura using an idea similar in nature is explicitly trying to ride on its coattails. The concepts and structures of the battles in each game are vastly different beyond "all-for-one shoot'em up."

This is purely hunting for something to be mad about in order to be mad.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,661
Axel's true purpose was to emulate us.

Confused, derisive of the series' plot and in the end being completely insignificant in regards to the grand scheme of things.
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
If we're shitting on Kairi, could we talk about Axel for a second? He spent all of DDD being a badass and set up to be important in the final battle only to stand around confused for 90% of the game in KH3

If there's one thing I like about the whole Kairi/Axel situation, it's that the game makes no illusions that they're at a tier of even way more completely useless and weak as keyblade wielders vs the old hands and master-class wielders.

Which you know, makes perfect sense since if a hyperbolic chamber training by someone who's not even a Keyblade Master ( Merlin ) can make them powerful enough to match Org13 members, that kinda diminishes all the real training and adventures Sora/Riku/etc went though.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,154
NYC
Similar in ways. Inspired by, maybe. Rip-off, no.


I love Automata to death, but I'm not going to pretend that Nomura using an idea similar in nature is explicitly trying to ride on its coattails. The concepts and structures of the battles in each game are vastly different beyond "all-for-one shoot'em up."

This is purely hunting for something to be mad about in order to be mad.
That's fair. When I was doing the segment I found myself thinking that Nomura had played the game and thought, "Oh I can do that too!" Without understanding why it's such a strong idea. I'm glad people got enjoyment out of it, nonetheless. It was a flashy moment and undoubtedly special for the people who got to participate.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
Yeah like having a storyline where some badguy tries to abuse light would be tight

Like star wars with the gray stuff
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,140
Singapore
Cause otherwise it makes half of Riku's story stupid?
I don't think it does. Darkness isn't "good" and too much light isn't "bad". Riku is just more human than Sora. Sora is able to remain pure in the face of everything because he will always be a child. He is like many of the Disney protagonists in that he's an idealistic and artificial character. Riku is more like us. There's always darkness because we think, we feel, and we have emotions. If you cannot accept that in yourself, you cannot function well.
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
18,995
If there's one thing I like about the whole Kairi/Axel situation, it's that the game makes no illusions that they're at a tier of even way more completely useless and weak as keyblade wielders vs the old hands and master-class wielders.

Which you know, makes perfect sense since if a hyperbolic chamber training by someone who's not even a Keyblade Master ( Merlin ) can make them powerful enough to match Org13 members, that kinda diminishes all the real training and adventures Sora/Riku/etc went though.
This falls apart when you remember axel's job in Org was to be the defector killer
 

JPLC

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
184
Canada
That would have been fine if they didn't already have Lingering Will (or whatever it's called). Trying to double up on what happened to Terra's heart after MX took his body just made it feel like a last minute ass pull.
I dunno, this is a universe of doubles, after all: Heartless and Nobodies, Originals and Replicas, etc. Lingering Will vs Guardian feels like another duality to me ("will" vs heart). I don't think it has to make perfect sense for it to fit in the universe of KH (hell, the universe keeps breaking its own rules minute by minute by design).

Plus, I think the emotional payoff of "Terra is Guardian" is still pretty powerful as the Guardian is an ever-present part of the mythos since the original KH; I think it adds a new weight to every appearance of the Guardian.
 

Altair

Member
Jan 11, 2018
7,901
Why, though? We've seen that the light is objectively good and darkness is objectively bad. Unless you want to play a game where you play as the villains, I guess.

Except that's not true. Riku's whole story arc destroyed that notion. Hell, Eraqus destroys that notion considering the dude was a complete dick despite being entirely devoted to light.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
My guy there might actually need to be a thread on Nomura and female characters cause woof
Other than fridging Kairi, which was wholly unnecessary & badly executed, there's not a whole lot there (that isn't just bad overall writing that engulfs everything). Nomura likes tragedy and that happens to EVERYONE. so some "Nomura craps on women" angle doesn't really work. Ven is in a coma for one and a half decades, Roxas has to throw away his life that he had just started gaining for someone else's sake, Terra is so weak that the villain has control over him for one and a half decades, Riku & Mickey fail in the one job they had and break/weaken their keyblades in the process, Axel's keyblade lasts for a minute or two (depending on how fast you get to that part of the fight).

Even Sora is a loser most of the time until it's time for Deus Ex Machinas, Power of Friendship & Role of the Main Character to suddenly win after getting beaten around by the villain for a better part of the day. I mean, Sora did the exact same move that Aqua did (just run in front of an enemy's attack to protect someone important to him without even trying to protect himself, even though he has the means to do so).


EDIT: Really, the only characters to come out of this game looking good are fucking Donald & Goofy, of all people (well, animals? animal people?).
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
If there's one thing I like about the whole Kairi/Axel situation, it's that the game makes no illusions that they're at a tier of even way more completely useless and weak as keyblade wielders vs the old hands and master-class wielders.

Which you know, makes perfect sense since if a hyperbolic chamber training by someone who's not even a Keyblade Master ( Merlin ) can make them powerful enough to match Org13 members, that kinda diminishes all the real training and adventures Sora/Riku/etc went though.
Axel was probably stronger before getting a Keyblade if we're being honest
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,484
Except that's not true. Riku's whole story arc destroyed that notion. Hell, Eraqus destroys that notion considering the dude was a complete dick despite being entirely devoted to light.

Hell, even SORA busts out dark powers (rage form) during the final battle.

As wrong as his plan was, Xehanort wasn't wrong that balance is a necessity.
 

rhandino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,609
I don't think an excess of light itself is bad so much as people being "blinded by it" and doing extreme things to avoid ANY darkness in the world instead of accepting that some people can have darkness and still be good.

For example: Eraqus trying to off Ven in BBS to avoid the creation of the χ-Blade.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,140
Singapore
Axel was probably stronger before getting a Keyblade if we're being honest
He definitely was. But at least we got to see his keyblade a few times up close in KH3. What keyblade was Kairi even using? I don't think there was a single clear frontal shot of it in the entire game. By the time all the characters got the chance to pose with their keyblades for the big scenes at the very end, she was already gone!
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,109
I dunno, this is a universe of doubles, after all: Heartless and Nobodies, Originals and Replicas, etc. Lingering Will vs Guardian feels like another duality to me ("will" vs heart). I don't think it has to make perfect sense for it to fit in the universe of KH (hell, the universe keeps breaking its own rules minute by minute by design).

Plus, I think the emotional payoff of "Terra is Guardian" is still pretty powerful as the Guardian is an ever-present part of the mythos since the original KH; I think it adds a new weight to every appearance of the Guardian.
I'm sure Terra will never forget the time he became a fucking space ship