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Deleted member 671

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,268
Dante seems to be just an all-rounder with power. Vergil specializes in teleportation and dimensional stuff like you said. Nero has his arms and stand power and seems to have far more brute force than the other two. Dante is just kinda good at everything. He doesn't excel to the degree that Nero and Vergil do in their respective power, but Dante doesn't really have any weaknesses either.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
Illogical conversations episode 56.
During Dante vs Urizen after he ate the fruit.
"How are you so powerful?! You never lost anything!"
Yeah, because that is how power works. And sure, it's not like Dante didn't lost his mom too.
C'mon Verge, you were supposed to be the smart twin. :/
Most likely poorly translated but I think the general idea makes sense for Vergil - his lust for power stems from his loss and feeling of betrayal with their mother saving Dante while forsaking him. He genuinely doesn't understand what sort of pain Dante draws his inspiration from considering his carefree attitude. Something like that.
 
I'm really not a fan of...I'm not sure if it's the original Japanese script, or the way it was translated. The voice actors are doing a good job, but a lot of the material doesn't feel like things actual people would say.

The Reports all being written from Nico's perspective was kind of an odd choice, too. She really doesn't know anybody very well, so having her as this weird not-authority on the DMC universe definitely held back the datalog from being as useful or insightful as it could've been.
There are sentences I just don't get at all.
When Dante goes against Urizen in Sin DT: "Dante... you dare approach me in that form?!" Um, yeah... why not?
Nero tagging along with half dead V, who states out of the blue without context: "The truth is... I wanted to be protected and loved... But I was alone. My only choice was to survive." Okay I guess. Your point being?
Nero is against V searching for Sparda and V says, he's not the only one to think so, what confuses Nero. And hell I also have no fucking idea who V means.

On top they really didn't do their story a favour in playing hide and seek with us. Dante knows far more than we as the player, and everyone has to talk and act in a shady way to hide the mystery, what ruins the dialogues and actions of the characters. It would have been far better, when we have the same knowledge as Dante and everyone could act in line with the circumstances.

It's okay that Nico writes them, but maybe after she learned about those characters from everyone.

I think at this point Vergil isn't all there because he's not only missing his human half, he's been half-dead and brain washed for 30 years. He seems a lot more with it after his "true" resurrection.
I would say he doesn't get too much smarter later, sadly. :/

a2Gr5Pr.gif
Dante blocking looks always so friggin' hot. .__. There is this wonderful gif from the Cavaliere Angelo fight.
Most likely poorly translated but I think the general idea makes sense for Vergil - his lust for power stems from his loss and feeling of betrayal with their mother saving Dante while forsaking him. He genuinely doesn't understand what sort of pain Dante draws his inspiration from considering his carefree attitude. Something like that.
So Dante would have no reason to seek power in contrast to Vergil? Hm, that I like.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
So Dante would have no reason to seek power in contrast to Vergil? Hm, that I like.
According to Vergil's line of thinking, yes. Obviously the player knows plenty about Dante's motivation, but from Vergil's perspective it makes no sense. My interpretation is that voice line serving to show us how closed-minded Vergil truly is. He just doesn't get any perspective aside from his own, which is kind of the entire reason he is the way he is.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,551
According to Vergil's line of thinking, yes. Obviously the player knows plenty about Dante's motivation, but from Vergil's perspective it makes no sense. My interpretation is that voice line serving to show us how closed-minded Vergil truly is. He just doesn't get any perspective but his own, which is kind of the entire reason he is the way he is.

And you can extrapolate further from that that part of the reason Vergil is so closed-minded is because he refused to let anyone else in after being split up from his family. His lack of ties to other people essentially developed him into a sociopath who just plain cannot fathom other people's perspectives.
 

Mgs2master2

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,861
Sometimes i sit and wonder if the Devs thought that the PC community would provide so much entertainment with the mods


plus the Monster energy drinks. Still have no idea why its monster or energy drinks but its so good.

 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
And you can extrapolate further from that that part of the reason Vergil is so closed-minded is because he refused to let anyone else in after being split up from his family. His lack of ties to other people essentially developed him into a sociopath who just plain cannot fathom other people's perspectives.
That's what confuses me when people say he has no character arc in DMC5? He literally opens up to the fact that he has a son to the point where he even accepts a truce with Dante after being ready to die fighting him. I honestly wasn't expecting that at all when I first played through the game.
 
Sometimes i sit and wonder if the Devs thought that the PC community would provide so much entertainment with the mods


plus the Monster energy drinks. Still have no idea why its monster or energy drinks but its so good.


10/10
ssrphf75rih11.jpg

That's what confuses me when people say he has no character arc in DMC5? He literally opens up to the fact that he has a son to the point where he even accepts a truce with Dante after being ready to die fighting him. I honestly wasn't expecting that at all when I first played through the game.
Hot take: He has one, but it's not good.
Chaning his background to "mommy abadoned me" (a conclusion beyond logic in itself) doesn't do him a favor. Reducing their relationship to "they disagree on their existence and must fight" doesn't help either, and it clashes with DMC3.
What if our positions would have been switched? Nothing, really. There is not this one big difference, that would explain this line of thought.
Everything around Nero rushing in, briefly talking about sons and then quickly going down to hell - completely rushed.
Only as V Vergil was able to feel remorse. That would imply old Vergil never ever cared about anything. (Before you could say, he knows his wrongdoings, but is just to cornered by his nightmares to take it into account. But he doesn't expect forgiveness and denies Dante's help, taking the punishment for his actions. He chose the demon path and stays behind in 3.)
And even V is still super weak to his bad side.

Dante knows Urizen is Vergil and V is Vergil and is still full of hostility. He uses Jackpot to test Urizen (although he should already know) and Urizen actually reacts - but that doesn't seem to change a thing for Dante. Wouldn't now be the moment to adress him further?
Seeing V weak and close to death, shouldn't that hurt him in a way? He doesn't really give a fuck.
The only moment he tries to talk to Urizen is in front of the fruit. A little late maybe. And he's not even smart enough to try to get him away from the fruit.
When Urizen babbles dying words, he laughs. No sign of some kind of sadness whatsoever.
He's super hostile after Vergil merged. Wouldn't it a good moment to talk, now that he's back to full conciousness?
On top of the tree, he wants Vergil to give him Yamato. Where does this suddenly come from?
He cares a lot about Nero, not wanting him to kill his father; he has a really strong affection to this family stuff. But killing his brother seems daily business. He seems more emotional towards dying Griffon.
The game never gives me a good understanding of what Dante thinks and feels.

It is not that you can't explain all of this. But I'd say it's not a good explanation. There is a reason why many of us are unsatisfied with Vergil (as someone phrased it, he got dirtied) and why Dante feels off at some points.
 

Cian

One Winged Slayer
Member
Feb 17, 2018
576
First 21 Savage, now Dante.
I can't believe that 2019 is the year of american heroes actually having been born in London all along.
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,501
Earth, 21st Century
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12-1552408340-783370159.png


Here's the two brothers side by side with similar expressions and the same hairstyle. They don't look identical anymore for sure, but for using different face models, they come damn close.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,893
ATL
I have a random question, why does Dante never use Sparda's devil trigger after DMC1? I know he gave the sward to Trish, for I reason I can't comprehend, but I was confused why he didn't use it in DMC5? Vergil hadn't eaten the fruit yet in the prologue, so, with Sparda's devil trigger, Dante should have been more than strong enough to demolish Urizen. That form was strong enough to stop Mundus, and DMC5's story established that Mundus was the previous eater of the fruit.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,551
I'm embarrased, but I completely forgot that Nero's R2 grab was a thing. I didn't know I could do it until the fight between him and Virgil at the end, when the game explicitly told you that you could do it lol.

To be fair, on your first playthrough, you literally can't do it until that fight outside of when you have Buster Arm equipped. So it's a pretty easy thing to just not remember you have.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,893
ATL
To be fair, on your first playthrough, you literally can't do it until that fight outside of when you have Buster Arm equipped. So it's a pretty easy thing to just not remember you have.

Ok, cool. I don't feel as bad now lol.

On another note, if you skipped to DMD mode by beating Urizen in the prologue on Son of Sparda, can you get the Son of Sparda unlocks by beating the game fully on DMD mode?

Lastly, are there any unlocks for beating Heaven or Hell mode and/or Hell and Hell mode? I have no idea how skilled of a player you have to beat in order to be Hell or Hell mode. That's an absurd challenge!
 
I have a random question, why does Dante never use Sparda's devil trigger after DMC1? I know he gave the sward to Trish, for I reason I can't comprehend, but I was confused why he didn't use it in DMC5? Vergil hadn't eaten the fruit yet in the prologue, so, with Sparda's devil trigger, Dante should have been more than strong enough to demolish Urizen. That form was strong enough to stop Mundus, and DMC5's story established that Mundus was the previous eater of the fruit.
I honestly don't know what you mean with Sparda's DT. The sword is meant to give the wielder a power boost, and you still see that happening, when Trish throws it to Dante in the first Urizen fight. After he wakes up from his coma, he also uses it the whole time, and his new sword is a mix of Sparda and Rebellion, giving him his new Sin Devil Trigger.
So he gets stronger through it, but maybe the sword alone may give power, but someone else as Sparda himself using it, might not be as powerful as he was in his prime. Vergil is also meant to be stronger than Mundus, so it may not be that easily to make this equation. (Also DMC is full of contradictions anyway and they invented the fruit stuff on a whim, so...)
Regarding why he left Trish with it: He never cared much for the sword and/or its power to begin with. He's also strong enough without. And I like to think it would feel weird for him using it, after he denied it Vergil, with all the consequences that followed.

In 3 the amulets are needed to transform Force Edge into Sparda. Upon Arkham's defeat, the stuff gets separated again, Sparda going back to Force Edge.
In 1 Dante gets Vergil's half of the amulet and gets full awakened Sparda. Now you may think, the amulets merged with the sword, but it stays in its final form although he still has the amulet(s). He leaves amulet and sword behind with dead Trish. When she gets back to life, she must have taken the stuff with her, but it's not shown in the game.
For she SE of 4 they decided to give Trish Sparda and amulet (she already takes it in the base game to offer the order, so it makes sense letting her fight with it.)
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,893
ATL
I honestly don't know what you mean with Sparda's DT. The sword is meant to give the wielder a power boost, and you still see that happening, when Trish throws it to Dante in the first Urizen fight. After he wakes up from his coma, he also uses it the whole time, and his new sword is a mix of Sparda and Rebellion, giving him his new Sin Devil Trigger.
So he gets stronger through it, but maybe the sword alone may give power, but someone else as Sparda himself using it, might not be as powerful as he was in his prime. Vergil is also meant to be stronger than Mundus, so it may not be that easily to make this equation. (Also DMC is full of contradictions anyway and they invented the fruit stuff on a whim, so...)
Regarding why he left Trish with it: He never cared much for the sword and/or its power to begin with. He's also strong enough without. And I like to think it would feel weird for him using it, after he denied it Vergil, with all the consequences that followed.

In 3 the amulets are needed to transform Force Edge into Sparda. Upon Arkham's defeat, the stuff gets separated again, Sparda going back to Force Edge.
In 1 Dante gets Vergil's half of the amulet and gets full awakened Sparda. Now you may think, the amulets merged with the sword, but it stays in its final form although he still has the amulet(s). He leaves amulet and sword behind with dead Trish. When she gets back to life, she must have taken the stuff with her, but it's not shown in the game.
For she SE of 4 they decided to give Trish Sparda and amulet (she already takes it in the base game to offer the order, so it makes sense letting her fight with it.)


I'm thinking about DMC1 where every weapon had it's own Devil Trigger form. In DMC1, when Dante unlocks Sparda sword, his devil trigger literally turns him into Sparda's devil form. It was extraordinarily overpowered. Heck, I would argue that its abilities visually made it seem stronger than even Sin Devil Trigger that he gets in DMC5 though the game tells you that it's stronger than his ultimate form in DMC1.
 

Altair

Member
Jan 11, 2018
7,901
I have a random question, why does Dante never use Sparda's devil trigger after DMC1? I know he gave the sward to Trish, for I reason I can't comprehend, but I was confused why he didn't use it in DMC5? Vergil hadn't eaten the fruit yet in the prologue, so, with Sparda's devil trigger, Dante should have been more than strong enough to demolish Urizen. That form was strong enough to stop Mundus, and DMC5's story established that Mundus was the previous eater of the fruit.

IIRC, Urizen was said to be the strongest enemy in all of DMC by Itsuno in an interview prior to the game releasing. That means he was stronger than Mundus before he even ate the fruit. This shows because he doesn't have any problem dispatching Dante even after Trish throws him the Sparda sword. Dante's form in DMC1 was just him channeling his fathers power through the sword, which led to him taking on that form.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,551
IIRC, Urizen was said to be the strongest enemy in all of DMC by Itsuno in an interview prior to the game releasing. That means he was stronger than Mundus before he even ate the fruit. This shows because he doesn't have any problem dispatching Dante even after Trish throws him the Sparda sword. Dante's form in DMC1 was just him channeling his fathers power through the sword, which led to him taking on that form.

It's kinda bizarre, too, because one of the central points of the entire series is that the humanity in the Sons of Sparda is what makes them so powerful. It makes very little sense that Vergil cutting his humanity out would make the ensuing demon STRONGER - more ruthless, sure. Less restrained, sure. No scruples or inhibitions? Totally.

But stronger? That doesn't track with the series' main theme.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,305
I have a random question, why does Dante never use Sparda's devil trigger after DMC1? I know he gave the sward to Trish, for I reason I can't comprehend, but I was confused why he didn't use it in DMC5? Vergil hadn't eaten the fruit yet in the prologue, so, with Sparda's devil trigger, Dante should have been more than strong enough to demolish Urizen. That form was strong enough to stop Mundus, and DMC5's story established that Mundus was the previous eater of the fruit.
I think it comes down to it being Kamiya's Dante and not Itsuno's. Lore wise, at their age, Dante and Vergil are already stronger than Sparda by DMC1. Let alone DMC5.

It's kinda bizarre, too, because one of the central points of the entire series is that the humanity in the Sons of Sparda is what makes them so powerful. It makes very little sense that Vergil cutting his humanity out would make the ensuing demon STRONGER - more ruthless, sure. Less restrained, sure. No scruples or inhibitions? Totally.

But stronger? That doesn't track with the series' main theme.
Vergil was literally the only person that didn't realize this.
 

Altair

Member
Jan 11, 2018
7,901
It's kinda bizarre, too, because one of the central points of the entire series is that the humanity in the Sons of Sparda is what makes them so powerful. It makes very little sense that Vergil cutting his humanity out would make the ensuing demon STRONGER - more ruthless, sure. Less restrained, sure. No scruples or inhibitions? Totally.

But stronger? That doesn't track with the series' main theme.

I doubt he was that strong at first. It was noted several times in the game that Urizen had been powering up via the Qliphoth, so his abnormal strength most likely came from that. Dante was probably stronger before Urizen had started boosting himself like that.

I'd say the main theme still sticks, especially since Urizen can't match Dante despite eating the fruit after the latter unlocks his SDT whereas Vergil could after he gains his human half back.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,551
I doubt he was that strong at first. It was noted several times in the game that Urizen had been powering up via the Qliphoth, so his abnormal strength most likely came from that. Dante was probably stronger before Urizen had started boosting himself like that.

I'd say the main theme still sticks, especially since Urizen can't match Dante despite eating the fruit after the latter unlocks his SDT whereas Vergil could after he gains his human half back.

Yeah, I guess that would have to be it. He's been sucking up so much human blood via the tree for a month that it's powered him up beyond his original demon limits.

Which means if Dante or even Nero ran into him when he was first "born" they'd wipe the floor with him. I guess we just have to accept that the Qliphoth spent a bunch of time underground before bursting out in the prologue, already sucking up blood before the formal attack began.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,893
ATL
Man, the way this game utterly trivializes mass genocide is almost comical though. I can at least understand Trish's ambivalence to the events of the game, since she's not human, but everyone else...REALLY?!!

On another note, it would be hilarious if they just go full on wrong and have Vergil turn good by becoming romantic with Trish, so that his mother complex can come full circle and the character assassination can be complete!
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,551
Man, the way this game utterly trivializes mass genocide is almost comical though. I can at least understand Trish's ambivalence to the events of the game, since she's not human, but everyone else...REALLY?!!

On another note, it would be hilarious if they just go full on wrong and have Vergil turn good by becoming romantic with Trish, so that his mother complex can come full circle and the character assassination can be complete!

This isn't even the first time Vergil's blown up a city to get what he wants.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,893
ATL
This isn't even the first time Vergil's blown up a city to get what he wants.

You're right, but at least he had extraordinarily misguided adolescence and a manipulative sorcerer to give him somewhat of an excuse...

It would be cool to have some narrative layers and moral gray added to the DMC universe. Why not make Sparda an Anti-hero of sorts? I mean he was fully demon yet had enough power to stop Mundus who ate the fruit of the Qliphoth. I could easily see it being that Sparda was originally the demon king before Mundus. Mundus could have organized a coup against Sparda who became sympathetic to humans, even though he committed mass genocide of them himself. A whole sins of the father angle might not be bad imo.'

Edit: I can't remember much of the back story on Sparda, so I might be stretching the narrative too far though lol...
 
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Golnei

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,823
On another note, it would be hilarious if they just go full on wrong and have Vergil turn good by becoming romantic with Trish, so that his mother complex can come full circle and the character assassination can be complete!

The comment I made ages ago about the DMC2 and DmC not being able to be considered main entries purely because they lacked a new and exciting incestuous relationship was borne out multiple times over by 5.

In 1, we had Dante x his mother's clone.
3 made people latch onto Dante x his brother in the classic sense.
4 introduced Dante x his nephew.

Now, with 5, Nero x his father's Nobody, Vergil x his mother's clone and any combination thereof including that featured in past games is all being enthusiastically seized upon, with more than one piece of Nero x Dante x V x Vergil x Urizen produced amidst tearful cries of oppression by people who don't understand the purity of their incestuous love.
 

Altair

Member
Jan 11, 2018
7,901
When has Dante ever cared about the general populace? All he cares about is killing demons, pizza, strawberry sundaes, and the extremely small circle of associates he has. Hell, he makes a point about humans being even worse than demons in the anime. He doesn't have a fondness for them at all. Same thing with Lady and Trish. Only Nero has ever shown to somewhat care about the population at large, but even then it's pretty minor.
 

Almagest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,447
Spain
Yeah, I guess that would have to be it. He's been sucking up so much human blood via the tree for a month that it's powered him up beyond his original demon limits.

Which means if Dante or even Nero ran into him when he was first "born" they'd wipe the floor with him. I guess we just have to accept that the Qliphoth spent a bunch of time underground before bursting out in the prologue, already sucking up blood before the formal attack began.
The game's archives actually confirm this, the tree sucks human blood for millennia (that's the only explanation for SO much blood) and the fruit takes thousands of years to bloom. Seems like Urizen just sped up the process by actually summoning the tree from the underworld into the human world so the fruit's creation would accelerate.

When has Dante ever cared about the general populace? All he cares about is killing demons, pizza, strawberry sundaes, and the extremely small circle of associates he has. Hell, he makes a point about humans being even worse than demons in the anime. He doesn't have a fondness for them at all. Same thing with Lady and Trish. Only Nero has ever shown to somewhat care about the population at large, but even then it's pretty minor.
I feel he's like Goku, he'll save people if they're in danger in front of him but he's not a superhero, not going to bother with putting the weight of the world in his shoulders. He could technically stop crime etc. and doesn't give a shit about any of that.
 

Skittles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,257
The comment I made ages ago about the DMC2 and DmC not being able to be considered main entries purely because they lacked a new and exciting incestuous relationship was borne out multiple times over by 5.

In 1, we had Dante x his mother's clone.
3 made people latch onto Dante x his brother in the classic sense.
4 introduced Dante x his nephew.

Now, with 5, Nero x his father's Nobody, Vergil x his mother's clone and any combination thereof including that featured in past games is all being enthusiastically seized upon, with more than one piece of Nero x Dante x V x Vergil x Urizen produced amidst tearful cries of oppression by people who don't understand the purity of their incestuous love.
After recovering from being Norted, Vergil uses his Keyblade on himself to become a Heartless. His Nobody, V, then goes on a journey using the Unversed created from the separation to fight with. V gathers other warriors of light to help him, one of which is a Replica of dante's mom. Meanwhile, vergil waits for Kingdom Hearts to form to gain more power.
 
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Golnei

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,823
Vergil uses his keyblade on himself to become a heartless. His nobody, V, then goes on journey using the fighting with the unversed created from the separation. Meanwhile, vergil waits for kingdom hearts to form to gain more power.

...wait, is Trish a Replica?

She's a vessel that could be used to bring back Eva's heart, but gained sentience of her own.

If Trish was a character and not furniture, that plotline could develop into either KH3 or Nier Gestalt.
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
The game's archives actually confirm this, the tree sucks human blood for millennia (that's the only explanation for SO much blood) and the fruit takes thousands of years to bloom. Seems like Urizen just sped up the process by actually summoning the tree from the underworld into the human world so the fruit's creation would accelerate.


I feel he's like Goku, he'll save people if they're in danger in front of him but he's not a superhero, not going to bother with putting the weight of the world in his shoulders. He could technically stop crime etc. and doesn't give a shit about any of that.
Im reading the dmc 1 novel and Dante actually stops crime/gangsters in that :^O
Though only when he feels like it
 
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Skittles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,257
...wait, is Trish a Replica?

She's a vessel that could be used to bring back Eva's heart, but gained sentience of her own.

If Trish was a character and not furniture, that plotline could develop into either KH3 or Nier Gestalt.
Trish would count as a replica lol, and vergil was basically norted before this game.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
3,893
ATL
I personally see Dante as somewhat of a tragic hero like Vash the Stampede. He cares about people deeply, but has a dark and tragic past centering around the death of thousands, with a bloodline that attracts violence. His obnoxiously silly and care free attitude is likely covering deep wounds and trauma. These things would also explain his desire to distance himself emotionally from most people he's involved with, especially those he helps (I feel like Lady's the same honestly).

It sucks though, there's alot thematically to work with in DMC, but the narrative never really delves that deep.
 

Kazuhira

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,167
When has Dante ever cared about the general populace? All he cares about is killing demons, pizza, strawberry sundaes, and the extremely small circle of associates he has. Hell, he makes a point about humans being even worse than demons in the anime. He doesn't have a fondness for them at all. Same thing with Lady and Trish. Only Nero has ever shown to somewhat care about the population at large, but even then it's pretty minor.

Nah,i don't think so.
He actually works for free when people hire him,that's one of the reasons why he is so poor and had to sell his weapons from the previous games.
 

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
That makes sense actually

Dante and Vash are both:
White guys
with red coats
who joke around a lot
and are total losers
 
I personally see Dante as somewhat of a tragic hero like Vash the Stampede. He cares about people deeply, but has a dark and tragic past centering around the death of thousands, with a bloodline that attracts violence. His obnoxiously silly and care free attitude is likely covering deep wounds and trauma. These things would also explain his desire to distance himself emotionally from most people he's involved with, especially those he helps (I feel like Lady's the same honestly).

It sucks though, there's alot thematically to work with in DMC, but the narrative never really delves that deep.
Vergil's the same. But while Dante seeks sorrow in revenge, Vergil seeks power. When he gets as strong as Sparda (or even stronger) he'll be able to protect everyone and everything and doesn't have to be afraid anymore of anything. (And then he could kill Mundus, too.) When he had been stronger that day, he could have saved Eva.

That's why I put high hopes into Ninja Theory on that part. It was all there. They just needed to use it wisely and learn from Capcoms mistakes. But well, let's not talk about it...