That's me, I'm dog shit in these weedout exams ( I just fking suck). Once I'm in I pretty much ace everything
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University of California makes landmark decision to drop ACT and SAT requirement for admission
- Thread starter Maple
- Start date
Undegraduate admissions is a bunch of arbitrary nonsense any way that you slice it... but this is definitely one of the more arbitrary parts of that process.
Killing off the Test Prep industry would be wonderful... and I definitely say this as someone who has benefited from the system (went to two Ivy League schools and got a good fellowship at a third partially as a result of standardized testing).
Killing off the Test Prep industry would be wonderful... and I definitely say this as someone who has benefited from the system (went to two Ivy League schools and got a good fellowship at a third partially as a result of standardized testing).
Yeah, for sure, you really don't know who you are at that age and people can definitely change.
But if there's a limited number of seats at an elite university it feels shitty to tell a student who has a strong work ethic "Eh, good job and all, but this other person who's been skating by while you do your 'applying yourself' routine just might shock us all!"
It's a complex situation and I'm definitely not going to pretend I have a flawless system worked out, but all else equal it feels fair to me to award positions to students who have worked for it harder.
SAT wasn't great (essay grading is a complete joke), but i don't hate the idea of everyone taking the same test
I tutor kids for sat and act and they're not great tests. I understand why they do it but we've reached a point of inflation where top schools are looking for like 1460+ scores which makes every question extremely high stakes. Subjecting yourself to 50-60 very high stakes questions in every subject doesn't work out for many kids, even if they know their stuff. Test fatigue is real, bad questions that psych you out are real.
Colleges could probably knock out a shorter and more informative test or application process that suits their programs better anyway.
Colleges could probably knock out a shorter and more informative test or application process that suits their programs better anyway.
No need for them to be honest, just do college entrance exams to figure out if they need to take remedial classes or not and call it a day (unless of course you already took the AP exams).
Step 1 is going to be Pass/Fail but Step 2 is still going to have a 3 digit score. In two years, Step 2 will be the new Step 1.
Good. Those stupid tests are a bullshit way to give a private company millions and an artificial barrier to exclude people trying to better themselves. It has always been a poor method of predicting readiness and success. A holdover from when only the wealthy could obtain higher education.
Oh my god. Remember how stressful Step 1 was!? That test's significance snowballed way out of proportion, built up to be this mythical beast by those in the class ahead of you. I completely psyched myself out with that test. Step 2, I handled in a much more appropriate manner.
Wonder what the rationale for keeping Step 2 scored is? I haven't really kept up with this stuff.
Why was admission to state-run facilities decided by tests run by and provided by private actors again?
More relevant to clinical practice is what most people say. I don't think the test has been broken down and scrutinized as thoroughly yet by test takers meaning there isn't any one book to rule them all test prep manual.
Count me in the camp for CS being a complete cash grab. There is literally no good reason to administer that exam other than take $1500 dollars out of the pocket of every medical student
Yeah all valid points. For the diploma issues, that path is usually community colleges. Many are open access and only need a diploma with any grade or a GED. No testing or specific GPA to get in. Then at that point they offer remedial courses so that unprepared students can get some of those basics. CCs also usually allow for training for those blue collar jobs you're talking about too. Or at least more resources to find them.
As for special needs, it takes some digging, but some schools have access programs that integrate life skills and varying levels of learning accommodations for those that need support in being independent and integrating more into society. Ironically my school has a robust program for that which allows for students to simply build their life skills and even lead to a degree. It goes well beyond standard accommodations you might see being listed online at a university accessibility office. Well recognized and allows for federal financial aid funding, which isn't common apparently.
Regarding grade inflation, sure it may be an issue. But usually a student who has been pushed through the system unprepared shows itself on the application. While we do look at grades, grade trends over time, course selection/rigor, we also look at a complete application. An unprepared student also comes across usually with a poor writing sample, minimal school/community/work involvement, poor or nonexistent recommendations, etc. It takes work, but we look closely at everything in trying to make a decision. But yes many schools simply look at a GPA number and test score and that's about it.
My kids aren't college aged yet but of course we're already thinking about it, and having them go to community college with some kind of guarantee (with caveats) that they'd get into a UC would be awesome. But UCLA is the closest and also one of the ones hardest to get into. Ah well, lots of time to save up the million or so it's going to cost at that point.
Yep. Completely agree. CS was such a waste of time and money. I remember flying to LA for that. Useless.
the GRE is utterly worthless..is there any grad program that values it? iIRC, once you hit over a certain score, no one cares what you got
The GRE requirement decided which grad school I went to - in that I did not enroll in a program that required one lol.
asian-americans are good at something? must be that the test is inherently biased towards them!
www.nytimes.com
Why Is the SAT Falling Out of Favor? (Published 2020)
The University of California will no longer use SAT and ACT scores in admissions decisions. Critics say the tests put less wealthy students at a disadvantage.
asian-americans are good at something? must be that the test is inherently biased towards them!
Why Is the SAT Falling Out of Favor? (Published 2020)
The University of California will no longer use SAT and ACT scores in admissions decisions. Critics say the tests put less wealthy students at a disadvantage.
You don't have an issue with the article mentioning white and affluent students? It's obviously not saying "This test is flawed because Asian-Americans in particular are good at it and fuck them." It's saying there are certain (multiple!) groups who clearly outperform other groups. This should be concerning on a standardized test, unless you believe Asians and white and naturally more intelligent than blacks and Hispanics.
The GRE is just bizarre to me. My wife recently applied to a PhD program and had to take it. The SAT and ACT at least make a bit of sense since they test basic high-school level reading and writing, and a lot of students don't know yet what they'll eventually major in so testing general knowledge is a way to gauge how generally prepared they are. But my wife was applying for a speech therapy program, and it was pretty clear that nothing on the test was very applicable to the work she'll be doing.
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This would have screwed me as a high schooler. I hated school and classes and was often truant. I rarely did my homework and only passed high school because I did well on exams. I only got into college because I had a very good ACT score to compensate for my low grades.
I mean, I get why this change makes sense overall, but I'd likely be one of the outliers to have suffer heavily from a deemphasis on test scores. My entire life would be drastically different if I didn't have standardized testing to pull up my low GPA for my college applications.
I mean, I get why this change makes sense overall, but I'd likely be one of the outliers to have suffer heavily from a deemphasis on test scores. My entire life would be drastically different if I didn't have standardized testing to pull up my low GPA for my college applications.
Yup, took for clinical psychology grad programs twice. $200 each time. At the end of the test you only get to see your score if you agree to have it permanently on record. If you decide not too, you just wasted $200 and a day of your time. Its so blatant to just get money out of you.
The test itself is just awful. I never have had such trouble with a test because of its wording. Its a shitshow of a test. I took it twice, made a worst score the second time, and just said fuck it. I'll make everything on my resume look much better so I don't have to go into debt for such a worthless test.
Honestly, if the test was sufficiently novel each year I think it could be very useful. Instead it is simply about who has the best access and ability to test prep.
I know in the biological sciences many programs are dropping their GRE requirements. Most programs are matriculating people that aren't out of undergrad, those that are working as technicians in industry or academia. Making them take the GRE is cumbersome and dumb and expensive. Hell, the schools would be better off if they just charged the student the cost of the GRE than to make the applicant pay some random company.
I taught/tutored the SAT pretty consistently about 8-10 years ago. In general I would promise approximately 300 (!) points of improvement on a 2400 point test, and I would generally deliver on that promise, assuming they weren't starting from a place above 2000.
Of course, I was charging anywhere from $50 to $150/hr, depending on the family. So people were directly trading dollars for points. You can try all you like, but there's no method I know of to make a standardized test that doesn't benefit from a knowledgeable tutor giving you a big leg up.
It's not like eliminating the SAT really changes this, though. Students from higher socioeconomic strata are going to have better environments and access to learning. The hope is to invest a huge amount of money toward after-school programs, teachers' salaries, and childcare assistance, but America is pretty garbo so that's probably not going to happen.
Of course, I was charging anywhere from $50 to $150/hr, depending on the family. So people were directly trading dollars for points. You can try all you like, but there's no method I know of to make a standardized test that doesn't benefit from a knowledgeable tutor giving you a big leg up.
It's not like eliminating the SAT really changes this, though. Students from higher socioeconomic strata are going to have better environments and access to learning. The hope is to invest a huge amount of money toward after-school programs, teachers' salaries, and childcare assistance, but America is pretty garbo so that's probably not going to happen.
Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year
Harvard University said Monday night that it wouldn’t require undergraduate applicants to submit ACT or SAT scores next year, citing “insurmountable challenges in scheduling tests.”
www.wsj.com
Not sure I understand this... are they replacing them with their own admissions tests? How do they get a sense of how prepared a student is? Grades and how a teacher interprets work varies wildly for many schools and courses... And if they are replacing them with admissions tests... what's better about theirs?
Never liked the SATs, it always felt like they just tested a person's ability to test rather than their ability to perform in college. I've never had such a tight time limit to write an essay in college as they give you on the SATs. And the vocabulary? No one remembers that shit after the test.
UCLA has TAP, and it's a second (or third?) consideration for your application, I believe. Normal transfer students couldn't select two majors for consideration (iirc) but TAP students could.
Honestly CC is such a good way to go to get into the UCs. For ones that offer TAG, it's straight up a guaranteed path to a great school, and for ones that offer TAP, it gives you a lot of opportunities and resources both as an applicant and once you're there. It takes away the fear of being weeded out at $13k/yr and is often dirt cheap or free.