United States Men's National Team loses tournament final vs bitter rival Mexico just ten hours after Women win the WC

[Regulus Tera]

Keep in mind this happens amidst the controversy surrounding the pay gap between the Men's side and the Women's side, even as they have proven time and again to be more succesful than their male counterparts. They're suing the US Soccer Federation for gender discrimination.

 

[Violence Jack]

The Women's team has been far better than the Men's team that it's a damn shame they still have to ask for equal pay.

 

[thekonamicode]

Fuck equal pay. Pay the women more.

 

[MrGerbils]

Fuck equal pay. Pay the women more.

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Way way way waaaaaaay more.

 

[Kin5290]

Fuck equal pay. Pay the women more.

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As a start, boot Michael Bradley from the USMNT and use his $6M salary to give the USWNT a bonus.

 

[TaterTots]

The men's team actually made it to the final!?

Fuck equal pay. Pay the women more.

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Yea. If we're going to do this based on who's better they should be paid more.

 

[bigosc]

The men's team actually made it to the final!?

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It's the gold cup, not much competition to begin with.

 

[CortexVortex]

Yea. If we're going to do this based on who's better they should be paid more.

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In the end it's all about that sweet TV money and in most regions Women's football isn't nearly as popular as its male counterpart.
But in this case I'd say just lower the US man's nation team's money and give it to the Women instead.

 

[Feep]

In the end it's all about that sweet TV money and in most regions Women's football isn't nearly as popular as its male counterpart.
But in this case I'd say just lower the US man's nation team's money and give it to the Women instead.

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Unless I misread something, the USWNT brings in far more revenue than its counterpart.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Haha... I mean, good... I mean suck it, America.

I can get behind the women's team for sticking it to trump royaly, but Mexico has to stomp the US a bit in this sport for a bit of personal retribution.

 

[Eila]

As a start, boot Michael Bradley from the USMNT and use his $6M salary to give the USWNT a bonus.

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What? The US team isn't paying Bradley 6 million. That's his club contract. Though I guess with MLS it's a little weird.
The US team is a special case, but in every other country the women's team and all the youth teams are funded by money brought by the men's national team.

 

[regenhuber]

While I agree with the overall sentiment, I guess a lot of people here don't know how "paying players" works in a FIFA context.

There is no salary in international football, players just get a cut of the prize money FIFA and/or the continental FAs pay to the national FAs. FIFA distributes the TV, ticket and sponsoring income (after skimming some cash of the top lol) for each tournament.
Since that income is exponentially higher for the men's WC, the male players receive more money.
Blame the sponsors, TV channels and viewers for that discrepancy.

Unjust money distribution in sports also isn't a football/soccer problem. You can better the greatest fencer in the history, you can be a 10 time gold medal winning swimmer and you will make less money than a random NBA role player.

 

[NoRéN]

Fuck equal pay. Pay the women more.

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Pretty much.

So much more!

 

[Yams]

While I agree with the overall sentiment, I guess a lot of people here don't know how "paying players" works in a FIFA context.

There is no salary in international football, players just get a cut of the prize money FIFA and/or the continental FAs pay to the national FAs. FIFA distributes the TV, ticket and sponsoring income (after skimming some cash of the top lol) for each tournament.
Since that income is exponentially higher for the men's WC, the male players receive more money.
Blame the sponsors, TV channels and viewers for that discrepancy.

Unjust money distribution in sports also isn't a football/soccer problem. You can better the greatest fencer in the history, you can be a 10 time gold medal winning swimmer and you will make less money than a random NBA role player.

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Thank you. I've been trying to explain this to people forever

 

[Feep]

While I agree with the overall sentiment, I guess a lot of people here don't know how "paying players" works in a FIFA context.

There is no salary in international football, players just get a cut of the prize money FIFA and/or the continental FAs pay to the national FAs. FIFA distributes the TV, ticket and sponsoring income (after skimming some cash of the top lol) for each tournament.
Since that income is exponentially higher for the men's WC, the male players receive more money.
Blame the sponsors, TV channels and viewers for that discrepancy.

Unjust money distribution in sports also isn't a football/soccer problem. You can better the greatest fencer in the history, you can be a 10 time gold medal winning swimmer and you will make less money than a random NBA role player.

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Except that, again, an audit conducted from 2016 from 2018 revealed that the women's team generated more revenue. And that's in a period without a Women's World Cup!

Audits

 

[Boiled Goose]

In the end it's all about that sweet TV money and in most regions Women's football isn't nearly as popular as its male counterpart.
But in this case I'd say just lower the US man's nation team's money and give it to the Women instead.

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This argument has limits considering other organizations subsidize small market teams. All players in the league get paid in the same scale regardless of market size.

 

[regenhuber]

Except that, again, an audit conducted from 2016 from 2018 revealed that the women's team generated more revenue. And that's in a period without a Women's World Cup!

Audits

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Can't read the article -> paywall.
But I assume from your post that it's talking about the women national team's friendlies, jersey sales etc., which isn't connected to World Cup prize money distribution at all.

 

[kingslunk]

Swap the pay checks. If the men want to make more then they can start winning.

 

[ishan]

This argument has limits considering other organizations subsidize small market teams. All players in the league get paid in the same scale regardless of market size.

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im thinking some of this has to do with how much influence the us fa has with fifa in general? other nations mens teams dwarf womens. Having said that shouldnt US FA be able to redistribute accordingly? I sense way more enthusiasm for womens football in the us than mens. ppl here were pretty meh about mens but quite excisted about womens. Is this a fixed fifa policy or can us fa redistribute by discretion if so womens deserve way more if not this is something I assume us fa should take up with fifa given the disparity between mens and womens in us (basically all other major football countries the mens are way way ahead in all monetary aspects)

EDIT: also arent most player salaries dwarfed by endorsement things anyway?

 

[hiredhand]

This might be a dumb question but is there any team sport in which US men's team consistently fares better than the women's one?

 

[nekkid]

I didn't think, as a player, you got paid for playing international games? I'm sure the England teams don't get a salary.

 

[The Fabled Englishman]

While I agree with the overall sentiment, I guess a lot of people here don't know how "paying players" works in a FIFA context.

There is no salary in international football, players just get a cut of the prize money FIFA and/or the continental FAs pay to the national FAs. FIFA distributes the TV, ticket and sponsoring income (after skimming some cash of the top lol) for each tournament.
Since that income is exponentially higher for the men's WC, the male players receive more money.
Blame the sponsors, TV channels and viewers for that discrepancy.

Unjust money distribution in sports also isn't a football/soccer problem. You can better the greatest fencer in the history, you can be a 10 time gold medal winning swimmer and you will make less money than a random NBA role player.

Click to shrink...

Isn't this issue primarily with the US Federation salaries, though?

Like, the difference in revenue between the last men's World Cup and this year's women's was something like $6 billion versus $141 million. I don't think anyone is really expecting FIFA to pay out a $400 million first prize from that amount of revenue.

 

[Yams]

This might be a dumb question but is there any team sport in which US men's team consistently fares better than the women's one?

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Basketball

 

[OtherWorldly]

This is helpful in explaining https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...han-men/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bc65d08607eb

It all comes down to how one is paid

Women players are paid salary regardless if they are picked
Men players are played only bonus if they are picked to play

Us women's soccer needs to get a better union negotiations to have the same structure as men's

 

[hiredhand]

Basketball

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Not really. The women's team has double the amount of world championships compared to the men's team.

 

[Kiraly]

Edit: Posted too early. IP

 

[Feep]

Can't read the article -> paywall.
But I assume from your post that it's talking about the women national team's friendlies, jersey sales etc., which isn't connected to World Cup prize money distribution at all.

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Why does it matter, the source of the income? If each team is generating approximately the same revenue in sum total, why should the players not be receiving equivalent amounts of money to take home to their families?

 

[OtherWorldly]

Why does it matter, the source of the income? If each team is generating approximately the same revenue in sum total, why should the players not be receiving equivalent amounts of money to take home to their families?

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...han-men/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bc65d08607eb

This explains it better of why the pay gap gap is due to how they are paid vs what they are paid

 

[Feep]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...han-men/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bc65d08607eb

This explains it better of why the pay gap gap is due to how they are paid vs what they are paid

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Collective bargaining agreements here might be the issue, but I'm not sure why separate collective agreements apply to two groups who fall under the revenue umbrella of an organization that manages sponsorships for both simultaneously (and which comprise over fifty percent of total revenue, apparently).

USSF is arguing it doesn't have to do anything about the money coming in from FIFA, which is more for the men's side, despite them sucking. I would argue that, yes, they do have to do something, because the women's performance is generating them more income at the end of the day. Fix the collecting bargaining agreement or merge them. If they don't, the women should strike, because it's bullshit. Or sue, which they are.

 

[Emergency & I]

The pay angle isn't great unless ratings have changed. I bet you can parse that angle a bit though.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Fuck equal pay. Pay the women more.

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This. They deserve more and have proven it.

 

[Good Kid mAAd Poster]

It's the gold cup, not much competition to begin with.

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theres no competition in the women's World Cup either

 

[so1337]

Fuck equal pay. Pay the women more.

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Agreed!

 

[Martinski]

theres no competition in the women's World Cup either

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Compared to the mens world cup there are less competition in the womens yes. There are only a few nations that really can stand up to the US dominance actually. Where it is much more "parity" on the mens side.

You wont see a slaughter like the 13 - 0 anymore in mens world cup. There arent any real "blueberry" nations, they are knocked out far in advance in the qualifiers.

 

[alexiswrite]

These women deserve to be paid better, but can we stop building this case around the incredibly flawed argument that they deserve this because the US men's team is bad?

 

[regenhuber]

Why does it matter, the source of the income? If each team is generating approximately the same revenue in sum total, why should the players not be receiving equivalent amounts of money to take home to their families?

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Again, you are mixing things up.
World Cup prize money =!= total annual income of football players

Each player, male or female, gets a fixed % of the total prize money pool allocated by FIFA.
The pool in the men's WC 2018 was ca. 400m€, in the women's WC 2019 it's 30m€.
While the US men team might not be responsible for it, they happen to play in a tournament that generates more revenue overall.
Why Hyundai, Budweiser, McDonalds, Adidas, the TV networks pay so much more money to the men's WC instead of the women's WC is a whole different topic.

What really rubs me the wrong way, is that FIFA allowed the Gold Cup and Copa America finals to be played on the same day, taking away attention from the Women's final.

 

[NekoNeko]

isn't it the case the the women are huge fish in a small pond while the men are small fish in a massive pond?
or do they get more money that isn't tied to how much the men's side generate?

 

[Deleted member 38573]

Only way I can think of to go about achieving pay parity would be the USSF merging the collective bargaining agreement

Have the USWNT dip into the USMNT FIFA WC earnings. Lol, wonder how that would go down.

 

[Zem]

While I agree with the overall sentiment, I guess a lot of people here don't know how "paying players" works in a FIFA context.

There is no salary in international football, players just get a cut of the prize money FIFA and/or the continental FAs pay to the national FAs. FIFA distributes the TV, ticket and sponsoring income (after skimming some cash of the top lol) for each tournament.
Since that income is exponentially higher for the men's WC, the male players receive more money.
Blame the sponsors, TV channels and viewers for that discrepancy.

Unjust money distribution in sports also isn't a football/soccer problem. You can better the greatest fencer in the history, you can be a 10 time gold medal winning swimmer and you will make less money than a random NBA role player.

Click to shrink...

Some nations pay their players per game. Mbappe is getting €17k per game and the England players get around £40k per game but it all goes straight into a charity pot, with England raising £5m since 2007. Mbappe's goes to charity as well.

 

[Kiraly]

Have the USWNT dip into the USMNT FIFA WC earnings. Lol, wonder how that would go down.

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The women play five games in a two week tournament on home soil to qualify for the World Cup.

The men play 16 games over a two year period at home and across parts of Latin America to (try to lol) qualify for the World Cup.

Think the USMNT would be livid.

 

[Feep]

theres no competition in the women's World Cup either

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Again, you are mixing things up.
World Cup prize money =!= total annual income of football players

Each player, male or female, gets a fixed % of the total prize money pool allocated by FIFA.
The pool in the men's WC 2018 was ca. 400m€, in the women's WC 2019 it's 30m€.
While the US men team might not be responsible for it, they happen to play in a tournament that generates more revenue overall.
Why Hyundai, Budweiser, McDonalds, Adidas, the TV networks pay so much more money to the men's WC instead of the women's WC is a whole different topic.

What really rubs me the wrong way, is that FIFA allowed the Gold Cup and Copa America finals to be played on the same day, taking away attention from the Women's final.

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No, I'm not mixing anything up.

Is anyone chanting "pay women equally with regard specifically to World Cup prize money"?

No?

Okay, so who cares?

 

[Deleted member 7051]

Fuck equal pay. Pay the women more.

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Surely in sports your pay should reflect your success? The more you win the more you're paid?

 

[natjjohn]

Surely in sports your pay should reflect your success? The more you win the more you're paid?

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Should reflect the revenue brought in by the sport as that's what's paying the bills. Could be a dynastic professional lacrosse team that has a ten year undefeated streak with multiple HOF lacrosse players that are all time greats, they getting paid less than vet minimum NBA player as a whole team combined. Just the nature of things. Just because you're good and win, doesn't mean more money is coming in for your sport.

 

[LastCaress]

Surely in sports your pay should reflect your success? The more you win the more you're paid?

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Popularity matters immensely as well. The best table tennis player probably makes a lot less than the best tennis player.

 

[RocknRola]

While I agree with the overall sentiment, I guess a lot of people here don't know how "paying players" works in a FIFA context.

There is no salary in international football, players just get a cut of the prize money FIFA and/or the continental FAs pay to the national FAs. FIFA distributes the TV, ticket and sponsoring income (after skimming some cash of the top lol) for each tournament.
Since that income is exponentially higher for the men's WC, the male players receive more money.
Blame the sponsors, TV channels and viewers for that discrepancy.

Unjust money distribution in sports also isn't a football/soccer problem. You can better the greatest fencer in the history, you can be a 10 time gold medal winning swimmer and you will make less money than a random NBA role player.

Click to shrink...

While this is true in general, I think this particular issue is more to do with what the USA's FA pays it's own players rather than what prizes they get from the FIFA competitions.

Assuming equal pay become a thing for the USA's teams, the WC would still end up making the men receive more (even it they didn't make it past the group stages) due to what you explained, the issue is that their own FA apparently pays the men a lot more than their women for no real reason. It makes sense in other FA's as the men's teams are usually a lot more successful than the women's, but this particular case is the reverse (by a literal landslide).

 

[SWoS]

I see Jozy Altidore's standard of finishing against a somewhat competent defence hasn't improved since his Sunderland days (1 goal in 42 games in the PL). 50 in 93 games in MLS though, L oh L.

Popularity matters immensely as well. The best table tennis player probably makes a lot less than the best tennis player.

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Yep. I really enjoyed the WWC this year and the level of competition was really decent. I'm sure once the TV ratings and marketing possibilities are realised, the women's game in general will start to see salaries that match up closer to the men's game. It's all comes down to marketability in the end.

 

[Geoff]

Some nations pay their players per game. Mbappe is getting €17k per game and the England players get around £40k per game but it all goes straight into a charity pot, with England raising £5m since 2007. Mbappe's goes to charity as well.

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Yeah I was trying to remember this information. For most nations, the money the men get from international tournaments is absolute peanuts compared to they club salary, so they will often give it away and play for the honour/exposure that the big international tournaments bring.

In MLS, I understand that some of the salaries are pretty low for professional football, so (some of) the players need that international income more. And the same is true for the women. AND the US is in the unique position of having the women's team being more popular/marketable than the men's team. So there is a set of circumstances there that really only applies to US soccer/football.

Personally, I think that any prize money and endorsements won by either team should be kept by that team but other income earned by US soccer should be paid with a bias to the women, to bring them closer to parity (assuming the women earn less than the men, endorsements included).

FIFA making the the prize money for the World Cup equal for men and women is unjustifiable from a commercial point of view but given that the men often give it away anyway and don't really need it...I don't know. I guess there would be some players at the men's world cup from poorer nations who don't have a European club who do relay on that money and who would be pretty pissed off to see it being diverted to the USA.

 

[regenhuber]

Some nations pay their players per game. Mbappe is getting €17k per game and the England players get around £40k per game but it all goes straight into a charity pot, with England raising £5m since 2007. Mbappe's goes to charity as well.

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Yes you are right, payments are being made from the FA to players in international football.
That's still not a salary (I always mix up wage and salary) because these payment aren't guaranteed by contract.
If you don't get called up or play, you get nothing.
Mbappe gets his salary (or wage) from PSG, even if he's injured.

While this is true in general, I think this particular issue is more to do with what the USA's FA pays it's own players rather than what prizes they get from the FIFA competitions.

Assuming equal pay become a thing for the USA's teams, the WC would still end up making the men receive more (even it they didn't make it past the group stages) due to what you explained, the issue is that their own FA apparently pays the men a lot more than their women for no real reason. It makes sense in other FA's as the men's teams are usually a lot more successful than the women's, but this particular case is the reverse (by a literal landslide).

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Ah, OK that's different of course. Going by the OP, I thought this was about the World Cup

 

[Mr.Awesome]

Except that, again, an audit conducted from 2016 from 2018 revealed that the women's team generated more revenue. And that's in a period without a Women's World Cup!

Audits

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This seems like an incredibly clickbaity headline/conclusion on a mostly irrelevant criteria. Sounds like the US Federation needs to start separating their books though.

 

[ZeoVGM]

This seems like an incredibly clickbaity headline/conclusion on a mostly irrelevant criteria.

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It's not.