United Methodist Church leaders release plan to split into 2 denominations over LGBTQ issues

TaySan · Jan 4, 2020

https://www.abc15.com/news/national...parate-into-2-denominations-over-lqbtq-issues

NASHVILLE, Tenn. – The United Methodist Church may split into two denominations, one that supports same-sex marriage and the ordination of gay people as clergy, and one that doesn't.

Sixteen members of a mediation team for the church released a plan for the proposed separation on Friday. It would give the new "traditionalist Methodist" denomination $25 million and allow it to keep its local church properties.

Under the plan, the new traditionalist faction would continue restricting marriage and the clergy, while the remaining faction would restructure its policies to include LGBTQ inclusion.

Here's an idea? How about just have one denomination that is inclusive to LGBT and that's it! How hard is it to not be a bigot?

nsilvias · Jan 4, 2020

ILikeFeet · Jan 4, 2020

I wonder which will be more popular

OhSatan · Jan 4, 2020

TaySan said:
Here's an idea? How about just have one denomination that is inclusive to LGBT and that's it! How hard is it to not be a bigot?

Nah subdivision is better is kills both of them quicker.

Illusion · Jan 4, 2020

ILikeFeet said:
I wonder which will be more popular

I wonder which one will be well loved and the other hated.

Bramblebutt · Jan 4, 2020

I used to go to a United Methodist church, and the conflict over LGBT inclusion is precisely why I stopped going in the mid-2000s. Maybe I might actually entertain visiting a pro-LGBT (Dis)United Methodist church, once this schism is resolved. For nostalgia's sake, since I'm an atheist now.

shnurgleton · Jan 4, 2020

So they're just the Methodist church now?

CaviarMeths · Jan 4, 2020

The LGBT-inclusive faction is paying the bigots $25 million and letting them keep all the churches.

What.

hydrophilic attack · Jan 4, 2020

CaviarMeths said:
The LGBT-inclusive faction is paying the bigots $25 million and letting them keep all the churches.

What.

I don't think they get all the churches? The way I read that, the bigot faction gets the property in denominations where they dominate

cDNA · Jan 4, 2020

CaviarMeths said:
The LGBT-inclusive faction is paying the bigots $25 million and letting them keep all the churches.

What.

It don't say they are keeping all the churches.

lunarworks · Jan 4, 2020

So much for being united.

jimtothehum · Jan 4, 2020

I talked to my dad who is very involved in his local Methodist church, he's not sure what's gonna happen, but he saw the divide as a US-centric church that is LGBT friendly and another church that is for the rest of the world who's views on the matter haven't quite caught up.

LewieP · Jan 4, 2020

It's what God would want.

Cantaim · Jan 4, 2020

Was reading about this yesterday. Good riddance to the homophobes hope where ever that congregation ends up they are worse for ware.

Doggg · Jan 4, 2020

Hank Hill to be even more confused about church.

Moist_Owlet · Jan 4, 2020

Aren't methodists supposed to be one of the least shitty denominations? I guess least bad is still bad.

BowieZ · Jan 4, 2020

The bible says nothing about homosexuality. The Old Testament encourages the Jewish people to be reproductive as part of a comprehensive but outdated Mosaic law. The sins of Sodom and Gomorrah are clearly listed as pride, greed, adultery, and rape.

Furthermore, advocating for LGBTQIA+ rights and representation is simply the Christian thing to do. It is exactly the kind of thing that would have distinguished Jesus from his dogmatic contemporaries.

Good on the Methodists.

HStallion · Jan 4, 2020

Moist_Owlet said:
Aren't methodists supposed to be one of the least shitty denominations? I guess least bad is still bad.

For a small town church in the 90's the Methodist church I attended was surprisingly accepting and progressive. I'm glad I went there compared to many other churches in my area.

MeetMyBackhand · Jan 4, 2020

lunarworks said:
So much for being united.

Ba dum tss!

Speevy · Jan 4, 2020

You walked into the wrong methodist church today!

zashga · Jan 4, 2020

Moist_Owlet said:
Aren't methodists supposed to be one of the least shitty denominations? I guess least bad is still bad.

They're generally one of the more chill/less judgey denominations, yeah. Except when it comes to gay people, I guess.

This is shameful. Why do so many Christians obsess over a topic that is never even mentioned in the gospel? Why is this the only thing from Leviticus they pay attention to?

Moist_Owlet · Jan 4, 2020

zashga said:
They're generally one of the more chill/less judgey denominations, yeah. Except when it comes to gay people, I guess.

This is shameful. Why do so many Christians obsess over a topic that is never even mentioned in the gospel? Why is this the only thing from Leviticus they pay attention to?

They are just using religion as an excuse for bigotry. It's just a means to an end to justify being hateful.

VentusGallius · Jan 4, 2020

There is a guy I used to play wow with who I thought was gay but eventually became a Methodist minister. Thought it was odd but I guess some parts of their ministry are more open?

Marz · Jan 4, 2020

BowieZ said:
The bible says nothing about homosexuality. The Old Testament encourages the Jewish people to be reproductive as part of a comprehensive but outdated Mosaic law. The sins of Sodom and Gomorrah are clearly listed as pride, greed, adultery, and rape.

Furthermore, advocating for LGBTQIA+ rights and representation is simply the Christian thing to do. It is exactly the kind of thing that would have distinguished Jesus from his dogmatic contemporaries.

Good on the Methodists.

I looked up the chapters with Sodom and Gomorrah in them and 2 angels come to Lots house to rescue him. Then the men of Sodom come to Lots house demanding him to open the door so they may "know" the 2 men. Lot implores them to cease this "wickedness" and instead offers up his 2 daughters for the men to do with as they want.

So I believe that the context is that sleeping with men is "wicked" and it would be better for Lot to allow his 2 daughters to be raped than for his guests to be raped.

You can't make this shit up.

Prototype Viktor · Jan 4, 2020

TaySan said:
https://www.abc15.com/news/national...parate-into-2-denominations-over-lqbtq-issues

Here's an idea? How about just have one denomination that is inclusive to LGBT and that's it! How hard is it to not be a bigot?

they want that branding in their new LGBT free world

meowdi gras · Jan 4, 2020

Ah, the eternal dilemma: treat others as fellow human beings or no?

???

🤔

Rodan · Jan 4, 2020

Marz said:
I looked up the chapters with Sodom and Gomorrah in them and 2 angels come to Lots house to rescue him. Then the men of Sodom come to Lots house demanding him to open the door so they may "know" the 2 men. Lot implores them to cease this "wickedness" and instead offers up his 2 daughters for the men to do with as they want.

So I believe that the context is that sleeping with men is "wicked" and it would be better for Lot to allow his 2 daughters to be raped than for his guests to be raped.

You can't make this shit up.

I believe Lot was defending the angels because they were GUESTS of his house, not because he feels so strongly against homosexuality. Still fucked up that he offered up his daughters, of course.

Volimar · Jan 4, 2020

It's sad that this has become such a wedge issue. Methodists I've known have been pretty chill about LGBTQ people and even the ones that took issue with it were more "hate the sin, love the sinner" about it. I hope the bulk of people go with the better side to show the others just how bad their way of thinking on it is.

Marz said:
I looked up the chapters with Sodom and Gomorrah in them and 2 angels come to Lots house to rescue him. Then the men of Sodom come to Lots house demanding him to open the door so they may "know" the 2 men. Lot implores them to cease this "wickedness" and instead offers up his 2 daughters for the men to do with as they want.

So I believe that the context is that sleeping with men is "wicked" and it would be better for Lot to allow his 2 daughters to be raped than for his guests to be raped.

You can't make this shit up.

It's meant to be a lesson in hospitality. The angels didn't want to be "known" by the townpeople. As their host, it was Lot's responsibility to protect his guests (over the safety of his own daughters but that's a whole other thing to unpack). For sure there's a "homosexuality bad" part of the message but it was just the icing on the cake that was the real lesson.

GatsGatsby · Jan 4, 2020

Wonder what the church I went to will go with. I stopped going because I saw how hypocritical a lot of the people at that church were especially the older ones that were in charge.

Septimus Prime · Jan 4, 2020

More like Confederate Methodist Church, amirite?

Dreams-Visions · Jan 4, 2020

TaySan said:
How hard is it to not be a bigot?

It's pretty hard.

JaggedSac · Jan 4, 2020

shnurgleton said:
So they're just the Methodist church now?

This made me chuckle.

Naijaboy · Jan 4, 2020

ILikeFeet said:
I wonder which will be more popular

My guess is that the traditionalist will keep the vast majority of churches outside of the US, Canada and Europe. A big reason that group got the majority was because of growth from developing nations. But here, the LGBT-friendly group will definitely dominate.

BowieZ · Jan 4, 2020

Marz said:
I looked up the chapters with Sodom and Gomorrah in them and 2 angels come to Lots house to rescue him. Then the men of Sodom come to Lots house demanding him to open the door so they may "know" the 2 men. Lot implores them to cease this "wickedness" and instead offers up his 2 daughters for the men to do with as they want.

So I believe that the context is that sleeping with men is "wicked" and it would be better for Lot to allow his 2 daughters to be raped than for his guests to be raped.

You can't make this shit up.

That's not quite correct.

The reason Lot offered his daughters was not because they were female, but because it was an offer.

The point being: Lot wanted to be hospitable to the "angels" who were staying with him (who are technically asexual, but supposedly appeared male-like?). So no, in God's eyes, the inhospitality was seen as a grave sin, but offering up children for sexual intercourse was quite normal.

As Volimar said, it was Lot's responsibility to protect his guests, for they were strangers (and God's angels, at that!) who needed protecting.

Infernostew · Jan 4, 2020

Just dissolve the whole thing.

Wilf Netherton · Jan 4, 2020

The LGBT supportive churches fought pretty hard to get LGBT recognition. Strange reaction here, this is a large group of Christians willing to force the issue and split the church in order to take a stand in favor of LGBT rights.

Teh_Lurv · Jan 4, 2020

Marz said:
I looked up the chapters with Sodom and Gomorrah in them and 2 angels come to Lots house to rescue him. Then the men of Sodom come to Lots house demanding him to open the door so they may "know" the 2 men. Lot implores them to cease this "wickedness" and instead offers up his 2 daughters for the men to do with as they want.

So I believe that the context is that sleeping with men is "wicked" and it would be better for Lot to allow his 2 daughters to be raped than for his guests to be raped.

You can't make this shit up.

I took a theology class in college about twenty years ago and that part of the Old Testament came up. I forget the details, but IIRC the professor stated that the homosexuality aspect is a mis-reading of the passage due to translation over time. Basically the original intent of the passage was the men of Sodom wanted Lot's guests to come outside and identify themselves. IIRC, the word used in the original text "to know" is slightly different from the sexual "to know", but over time translations caused both words to become the same word.

TaySan · Jan 4, 2020

Wilf Netherton said:
The LGBT supportive churches fought pretty hard to get LGBT recognition. Strange reaction here, this is a large group of Christians willing to force the issue and split the church in order to take a stand in favor of LGBT rights.

I'm happy for this to happen, but it's sad they had to fight for this in the first place. So much for loving your neighbor >.>

Rendering... · Jan 4, 2020

The irony of a church splitting on the issue of whether or not to be a good person.

Wilf Netherton · Jan 4, 2020

TaySan said:
I'm happy for this to happen, but it's sad they had to fight for this in the first place. So much for loving your neighbor >.>

Oh no doubt, the bigots deserve to be condemned.

HStallion · Jan 4, 2020

Did the Methodists ever get around to kicking out Jeff Sessions before all this came down?

Frankish · Jan 4, 2020

Dang I wonder what will happen to my church. The pastor seems like a good dude I hope he's on the right side here. Or do we take a vote? So weird.

AbsoluteZero0K · Jan 4, 2020

Frankish said:
Dang I wonder what will happen to my church. The pastor seems like a good dude I hope he's on the right side here. Or do we take a vote? So weird.

It's going to be a vote just like last year.

A friend of mine is a (United) Methodist. They had a Q&A session last year after the 2019 convention. They'll probably discuss this tomorrow, too, since it's reached mainstream news.

Deleted member 6949 · Jan 4, 2020

trash and recyclables

cosmicspooks · Jan 4, 2020

Oh man, I remember when it came out that the Methodist Church was like, planning on not supporting LGBTQ people. It sent my mom, who has been very involved in her church like, her whole life, into a real crisis.
"Guess God is dead now! Guess I gotta hate Jesus! Should I like, set fire to the church, or...?"

It made me very proud to hear her stand up for the moral thing and be ready to drop something so important to her haha

thesoapster · Jan 4, 2020

Funny because the denomination I was raised in officially wouldn't ordain women. Yet they still did. The objections on the the subject all came from Europe and Asia.
Given the number of gay Christians I've known, it might not be insane for some churches to split.

Deleted member 4452 · Jan 4, 2020

Marz said:
I looked up the chapters with Sodom and Gomorrah in them and 2 angels come to Lots house to rescue him. Then the men of Sodom come to Lots house demanding him to open the door so they may "know" the 2 men. Lot implores them to cease this "wickedness" and instead offers up his 2 daughters for the men to do with as they want.

So I believe that the context is that sleeping with men is "wicked" and it would be better for Lot to allow his 2 daughters to be raped than for his guests to be raped.

You can't make this shit up.

Did you get to the part where his daughters rape him later on?

JeTmAn · Jan 4, 2020

BowieZ said:
The bible says nothing about homosexuality.

You're quite wrong on this. There are passages in Leviticus as well as the Pauline epistles specifically calling out homosexuality as sin. As with anything it's up for interpretation but your statement is categorically false.

thesoapster · Jan 4, 2020

JeTmAn said:
You're quite wrong on this. There are passages in Leviticus as well as the Pauline epistles specifically calling out homosexuality as sin. As with anything it's up for interpretation but your statement is categorically false.

Definitely up for interpretation, as is much of the Bible. Interpretations against homosexuality aren't that old, and depend more on the time.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that for the people who think being gay matters, "it was written different". But if you start digging deeper into the Bible, understand how certain versions were highly influenced by the thinking of the time, you might stop and think...

Marz · Jan 4, 2020

Llyranor said:
Did you get to the part where his daughters rape him later on?

I'm familiar with the Bible and all of its fucked up stories, yes.

United Methodist Church leaders release plan to split into 2 denominations over LGBTQ issues

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