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Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
What made it feel more earned? To me, it felt like shoving two people with similar skin colors together in the last hour of the movie because that's easier for audiences to tolerate than mixed-race couples. And let's have them both be former stormtroopers so they don't have to actually bond. It felt like taking some pretty dirty shortcuts possible to making two black people on film appear to have a connection. "Ignore any romantic tension you may have felt between Finn and Rey or Rose. These two black characters used to be slaves. They just fit together."
They had shared history that connected them on a fundamental level, perhaps the only one that understood his personal torment, which was, as an observer fascinating to see. Yes I know it was a little too convenient, but the prospect of Storm troopers defecting then reuniting to prevent other children from being subjected to the same cruelty felt more organic. Rose was like "dumb-dumb Fin", it was odd, and to be honest was a bit preachy.
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,039
Pennsylvania
Now that I think about it, even if Carrie's scenes affected Rose...

...why was she still sidelined after Leia's death? She has barely any presence in the final battle and celebration. There was plenty of room to include her in that final assault.
It's why the whole excuse is bullshit, Leia was dead within the first hour and a half, that still left an hour of time rose could have done literally anything. As you say especially in the last battle, where Wedge returns for lines(where the fuck has he been the whole time, from rogue squadrons leader to having no place at all in the resistance wtf) and Zorii gets a few shots. There's no excuse, they forgot about her and didn't film or plan shit for her or willingly cut her from the movie.
 

hurlex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,143
Unless I'm mistaken we are talking about a writer, not an "executive". You won't scare me off by trying to convince me or others that I'm "defending racist actions". You're pushing a very extreme narrative with very little ground to stand on and I think that's irresponsible.

You can have a conversation about the writing of the movie not accomplishing everything it could without jumping to OMG THE WRITERS MUST BE RACIST.

You haven't even explained why you think their actions are not racist. I've laid a pretty clear case for why it is, and you're response has basically been 'lol no.' And then you have the gall to say I'm being irresponsible. As a Asian person, it would be nice for you not to downplay the Asian communities concerns of this.

The writer chose which character they decide to give screen time to. They are contributing to the lack of representation of Asian people in American movies by taking an established character and removing her from the story. Can you explain how that is not racist? Even if you want to give the writers some credit and say that wasn't their intent, it does not matter because you can still do something racist without intending for it to be. And no this is not an extreme view.
 

LanceX2

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,821
I didnt like her character at all but Im chalking that up to the writing of TLJ. and Rise was definentlt not written well either
 

SerAardvark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
986
It's why the whole excuse is bullshit, Leia was dead within the first hour and a half, that still left an hour of time rose could have done literally anything. As you say especially in the last battle, where Wedge returns for lines(where the fuck has he been the whole time, from rogue squadrons leader to having no place at all in the resistance wtf) and Zorii gets a few shots. There's no excuse, they forgot about her and didn't film or plan shit for her or willingly cut her from the movie.

Ask and ye shall receive. From Wookiepedia, citing Resistance Reborn.

Following the climactic Battle of Jakku, Wedge married Norra and settled back on Akiva, where they lived a peaceful life taking care of their garden and their keedees. Eventually, the couple were visited by Temmin and his wife Karé Kun, who briefed them on the Battle of Crait and the deaths of Admirals Statura, Holdo and Ackbar, along with Luke Skywalker. This shocked Wedge and Norra greatly

Really glad to see Luke's sacrifice being the spark for continued resistance here.
 

Bionic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
768
They had shared history that connected them on a fundamental level, perhaps the only one that understood his personal torment, which was, as an observer fascinating to see. Yes I know it was a little too convenient, but the prospect of Storm troopers defecting then reuniting to prevent other children from being subjected to the same cruelty felt more organic. Rose was like "dumb-dumb Fin", it was odd, and to be honest was a bit preachy.
I know those things. I asked what made it feel more earned, because it didn't feel earned at all to me. Rose and Finn went through actual conflict and emotion and growth together. They have an arc. What do Finn and Jannah go through like that? They meet, they find out they have very similar backgrounds, and then they run next to each other shooting stuff. Then she splits to go hang out with Lando. What was earned about them having one conversation about both being ex-stormtroopers, and then benignly shooting stuff next to each other with no development of their characters or their relationships for the rest of the movie?
 

Deleted member 17810

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
303
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing concerns of representation
You haven't even explained why you think their actions are not racist. I've laid a pretty clear case for why it is, and you're response has basically been 'lol no.' And then you have the gall to say I'm being irresponsible. As a Asian person, it would be nice for you not to downplay the Asian communities concerns of this.

The writer chose which character they decide to give screen time to. They are contributing to the lack of representation of Asian people in American movies by taking an established character and removing her from the story. Can you explain how that is not racist? Even if you want to give the writers some credit and say that wasn't their intent, it does not matter because you can still do something racist without intending for it to be. And no this is not an extreme view.

Why I don't think their actions are racist
You may or may not be aware but because of two crucial pre-production events, the film underwent a lot of changes at an accelerated development speed.
•Carrie Fisher passed away suddenly
•The director originally hired for the movie shot his career in the foot and had to be let go
When this happened, Luasfilm then needed to hire a new director that could also complete the writing process for the story. J.J. Abrams was brought back on and it was a fairly logical choice considering his history with Lucasfilm and Star Wars. Disney then made the call to keep the production schedule of the movie intact (arguably a very dumb decision) instead of letting Lucasfilm have a proper amount of time to make The Rise Of Skywalker.

What's this all mean? It means you have J.J. Abrams and Chris Terrio rushing to make a film work. According to Terrio, parts of the movie needed to be changed due to not being able to get Leia related special effects to the finish line/a certain level of quality. These movies DO involve risk, as most Star Wars special effects have for some time now. It's not ridiculous that you have an ambitious idea for a movie but it can't be made to work in the time that you have. Ultimately, they decided to have Rose's character support the resistance and Leia at their home base, and those parts of the film were trimmed down.

You are asserting that they were trimmed down because Abrams or Terrio felt the need to act on discrimination or prejudice against asian people. Her role in the film was cut because they chose to focus on the core trio of characters (Rey, Finn, and Poe) in an already bloated and overstuffed film. Choices were made because they felt it would benefit the film, and sometimes this is just part of the creative process. I think it's also worth noting that the main trio of heroes in the trilogy are 2/3 minorities.

tl:dr You're angry about the creative decisions that Abrams and Terrio made in the film and you're throwing out baseless accusations of racism without any proof. You should really consider how complex a process making a movie is and the problems that this film had in all stages of it's production.
 

hurlex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,143
Why I don't think their actions are racist
You may or may not be aware but because of two crucial pre-production events, the film underwent a lot of changes at an accelerated development speed.
•Carrie Fisher passed away suddenly
•The director originally hired for the movie shot his career in the foot and had to be let go
When this happened, Luasfilm then needed to hire a new director that could also complete the writing process for the story. J.J. Abrams was brought back on and it was a fairly logical choice considering his history with Lucasfilm and Star Wars. Disney then made the call to keep the production schedule of the movie intact (arguably a very dumb decision) instead of letting Lucasfilm have a proper amount of time to make The Rise Of Skywalker.

What's this all mean? It means you have J.J. Abrams and Chris Terrio rushing to make a film work. According to Terrio, parts of the movie needed to be changed due to not being able to get Leia related special effects to the finish line/a certain level of quality. These movies DO involve risk, as most Star Wars special effects have for some time now. It's not ridiculous that you have an ambitious idea for a movie but it can't be made to work in the time that you have. Ultimately, they decided to have Rose's character support the resistance and Leia at their home base, and those parts of the film were trimmed down.

You are asserting that they were trimmed down because Abrams or Terrio felt the need to act on discrimination or prejudice against asian people. Her role in the film was cut because they chose to focus on the core trio of characters (Rey, Finn, and Poe) in an already bloated and overstuffed film. Choices were made because they felt it would benefit the film, and sometimes this is just part of the creative process. I think it's also worth noting that the main trio of heroes in the trilogy are 2/3 minorities.

tl:dr You're angry about the creative decisions that Abrams and Terrio made in the film and you're throwing out baseless accusations of racism without any proof. You should really consider how complex a process making a movie is and the problems that this film had in all stages of it's production.

Again, you are failing to understand that they can do something racist without intending it to be so. All that you said is immaterial to the fact that one of the few times an Asian person was a main character of a blockbuster series, JJ and co decided to revoke that status. You don't seem to understand what systemic racism is and I urge you to do some research in it.

If you contribute to systemic oppresion of minorities, you are at least doing some racist regardless if you had bad intentions or not. JJ and co do not have to overtly hate or feel prejudiced against Asians to do something racist against them. He has a responsibility here, and he failed.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,780
What a wack ass explanation, he was better off not saying anything at all
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
There was a ton of work with CG that was never finalized due to how it looked etc. Whole segments of the movie were reworked due to effects issues etc. Rose was the least of their worries to be quite blunt with trying to get this movie out the door to Disneys approval

It just makes me want to detach from these sorts of Internet hubs to see people jumping to conclusions without understanding what a troubled production this film had.

Not only does Disney need to slow down the films, but they need to admit that they were wrong, and revert to 3 year production intervals.

They had shared history that connected them on a fundamental level, perhaps the only one that understood his personal torment, which was, as an observer fascinating to see. Yes I know it was a little too convenient, but the prospect of Storm troopers defecting then reuniting to prevent other children from being subjected to the same cruelty felt more organic. Rose was like "dumb-dumb Fin", it was odd, and to be honest was a bit preachy.

Finn of all people being lectured to on those subjects in TLJ was just...
 
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IDreamOfHime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,437
Reminder that Episode VII starts with Leia looking for Luke because there were no Jedi around to help with the fight

Leia having been a Jedi master all along breaks the logic of the entire trilogy

lmao

The entire story, characters and overall conflict was written on a napkin and then Disney dumped a truck of cash on it to pad it all out.
 

Bio

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,370
Denver, Colorado
What made it feel more earned? To me, it felt like shoving two people with similar skin colors together in the last hour of the movie because that's easier for audiences to tolerate than mixed-race couples. And let's have them both be former stormtroopers so they don't have to actually bond. It felt like taking some pretty dirty shortcuts possible to making two black people on film appear to have a connection. "Ignore any romantic tension you may have felt between Finn and Rey or Rose. These two black characters used to be slaves. They just fit together."

Agree completely. It was so transparent it was disgusting. They spent an entire movie building a bond between Finn and Rose and somehow a 30 second conversation that amounts to "hey you're a Stormtrooper? So was I!" makes this last second romantic connection feel "earned"?

Fuck that noise.
 

Snowy

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,399
You haven't even explained why you think their actions are not racist. I've laid a pretty clear case for why it is, and you're response has basically been 'lol no.' And then you have the gall to say I'm being irresponsible. As a Asian person, it would be nice for you not to downplay the Asian communities concerns of this.

The writer chose which character they decide to give screen time to. They are contributing to the lack of representation of Asian people in American movies by taking an established character and removing her from the story. Can you explain how that is not racist? Even if you want to give the writers some credit and say that wasn't their intent, it does not matter because you can still do something racist without intending for it to be. And no this is not an extreme view.

"This character had more screen time, but the actress she was playing opposite of died and we couldn't make the CG, which already looks bad and fishy in the little bit that's there, work, and the whole thing was slapdash so there wasn't a feasible way to work her back in elsewhere given all the other production constraints" seems like a pretty reasonable, non-racist explanation of what happened here. Shit happens, it's a ridiculously expensive and complicated project with literally thousands of competing priorities at any given time. Plus, "JJ Abrams did a systemic racism" is, like, a really incoherent sentiment, in terms of theory. Systemic racism lies in Asian actors not getting big roles in general, such that individual circumstances like this can represent a statistically significant disruption. The onus being on one or two large productions to be inflection points of change is a counterproductive channeling of activist energy, here, when casting directors and money men are who hold the vast majority of the cards when it comes to this specific problem.
 

Failburger

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,455
They basically ad lib this film. They could've easily have Rose so freaking anything. It isn't like Carrie Fisher died during the filming of this movie,
 

Madao

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,694
Panama
even if this was true, it means they had benched her from the start anyway. people wanted her to go planet hopping with the main cast.
 

The Emperor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,790
Puhlease

I dunno what was worse, the friend zoning tap Finn gives her on the shoulders or this excuse for an explanation
 

Deleted member 19003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,809
Chris Terrio: "We love Rose! She had a significant role in The Rise of Skywalker, but unfortunately we had to cut those scenes because Leia looked weird."

Meanwhile...


Oh wow, Her hair is soooo much better in this one. The hairstyle she had in tlj was god awful for her face, and made her look derpy. Still makes me upset how so many people went after the actress personally for the shortcomings of that movie 😡
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Didn't the creative team change at some point after TLJ and they basically had much less time to draft a script (from scratch)? Just because they knew she was dead, doesn't mean that they had all the time from her death to plan it. You're conflating different screenwriters/directors here.

That does not coincide with what JJ Abrams said earlier:

Abrams: To have no script and to have a release date and have it be essentially a two-year window when you're saying (to yourself), you've got two years from the decision to do it to release, and you have literally nothing . . . . You don't have the story, you don't have the cast, you don't have the designers, the sets. There was a crew, and there were things that will be worked on for the version that preceded ours, but this was starting over.
Source: https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/201...nging-a-beloved-saga-to-a-satisfying-end.html

So they didn't have a script or story ideas to work with, and knew that Carrie Fisher was dead by September 2017 (when JJ Abrams was hired to take on Episode IX). Again, there's nothing to prove that their excuse was a valid one. So the whole "we planned Rose and Leia together" is absolute horseshit.
 
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KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,995
The more I think about it, this explanation is as cynical as the role Leia played in the movie or as the bunch of "remember this, remember that" random SW things they put in the movie.
 

Truant

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,759
I liked Rose a lot more in this film and wish she had more scenes. She felt more like a military leader type than the super naive optimist from TLJ.
 

Slashkice

Member
Oct 27, 2017
518
It's a shitty situation because of all the harassment the actress endured, but Rose was one of the worst parts of TLJ so I didn't mind her getting sidelined in TROS.
 

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
14,995
I didn't care for Rose, but really she should have been given a larger role instead of them wasting time trying to put in more Leia. The Leia stuff felt odd. Rose going on adventures with the main crew didn't seem right either, she should have been kept as a higher up leadership role in the Resistance, give her more commanding and organizing scenes instead of the awkward use of Leia they did. Maybe it's cause we know that she's dead and wasn't really in those scenes, but they all felt really awkward and kinda pointless as they just used what they could salvage instead of having any real meaning. If anything use some of the footage early on and have Leia pass early in the film.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,470
Rose was a fine character in TLJ, I just didn't like the story they put her and Finn in with Canto Bight. I enjoyed the greater focus on the main three characters in ROS, and from a story perspective I'm not much bothered by Rose not being as prevalent in this one. But it is also jarring how sidelined she was, I admit to that for sure. And the continued rather disingenuous attempts to talk around that issue by the creators of the film is disturbing and they should probably...just stop trying to explain it.
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,833
Dude, Finn started off as a toilet cleaner, remember?

Did he ever get a full job title in the resistance? The toilet cleaning was part of the cadet training, he was a storm trooper the entire time. He didn't go from cleaning toilets to storm trooper. My boy Finn getting disrespected.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,628


Yeah fuck this movie jfc


This is weird because the Visual Dictionary makes the character sound really integral. Instead he just cannibalizes Rose and Connix's part. Until this I assumed his role had been cut.

Side note: if the Leia scenes weren't working they should have written scenes for Rose/Connix instead. Like, as two people now thrust into leading the resistance since Poe forgot all his character development from TLJ.
 

Kopite

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,020
Side note: if the Leia scenes weren't working they should have written scenes for Rose/Connix instead. Like, as two people now thrust into leading the resistance since Poe forgot all his character development from TLJ.
He did? He seems a lot more mature and less impulsive, he learnt his lesson from Leia/Holdo
 

theBmZ

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,128
I won't say their intentions were racist. I think that's a bit extreme. But the answers they are giving are kind of bullshitty to me. They had ample time to script this thing, and ample time given the knowledge that Carrie is no longer with us. If what they are claiming is true, then they are the dumbest motherfuckers alive. I don't buy it, because in a film designed to go back on everything set up in the last film, this seems like just another one of those boxes checked. People bitched about Rose in TLJ? Can't have her in this one. It's fucking pathetic.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,628
He did? He seems a lot more mature and less impulsive, he learnt his lesson from Leia/Holdo

Maybe, but I didn't feel like he took on the leadership role Leia was trying to train him towards, mostly due to JJ wanting to have the main crew together the whole movie. He still does the Skipping thing and almost seems like he'd rather stay with Zorii, despite both seemingly going against what he learned last time.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,470
Maybe, but I didn't feel like he took on the leadership role Leia was trying to train him towards, mostly due to JJ wanting to have the main crew together the whole movie. He still does the Skipping thing and almost seems like he'd rather stay with Zorii, despite both seemingly going against what he learned last time.

Him wanting to stay with Zorii was a moment of human weakness, thinking this whole thing is bigger than him (which it is). But ultimately he makes the right choices, and he definitely learned to run by the end of TLJ. I really enjoyed getting a glimpse of his past in ROS, because it makes his character arc of being such a hot head make more sense.

Side note, I'd love a Disney+ mini series about Poe, Zorii, Babu Frik, etc's exploits prior to the sequel trilogy lol
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
It's possible Rose was written out on a bet and that alone makes me furious. This, below, just kind of confirms they just didn't care enough:
Trying to not insult ILM turned into such confirmation. Lol.