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Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
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Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Did ellie know she was going to die?

From what I remember, it's left vague if she knew. Marlene even says "it's what she'd want, and you know it", and Joel just shoots her in response.

Granted it was messed up that they didn't explicitly tell her (though Marlene might have told her ages ago, we don't know), but there's every chance she'd have been willing to go through with it. Joel took that option away from her, and if she ever finds out, it'd eat her up inside over the following years. I really hope that's the direction TLoU2 takes, at least.
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
Joel was a broken man after his daughter died.
He was reluctant to open up to anyone. Ellie still managed to crack him. Joel realized he is in too deep and couldn't cope with losing Ellie, too.
So he shot up the fireflies and lied to Ellie.

This doesn't make him the villain, though. Don't think about it in categories like that.
Joels actions were completely in line with his character and the world and I am also pretty sure that Ellie knew he was lying to her but was okay with it, because all she really wanted was someone who wouldn't leave her behind because circumstances demanded it.

The fireflies and the entire immunity thing were actually very secondary factors. They were part of the story to create an incentive and purpose for the journey, but the game was never about these things. You could completely change the root cause of the journey and the game would still be the same. The story was about Joel and Ellie, not about zombies or the apocalypse or the fireflies or a cure. Thats all just backdrop.
 

SpinlyLimbs

Banned
Feb 1, 2018
914
The whole ending of TLOU was fucking stupid. Why not just have Ellie conceive a child, who would likely also be immune if the immunity is genetic in which case they could easily study the genes that lead to that.
 

Deleted member 19924

User requested account closure
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Oct 28, 2017
3,543
The Last of Us is so much better than the overrated drivel that is Children of Men. Only good thing about that movie is the 60 second no-cut building bomb scene. The Road >>>
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,598
I'm pretty sure Riley outright says what the point is in the DLC, that being no matter how dire the circumstances you fight for every second you get to spend with the people you care about.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,901
If we knew the fireflies plan would work this would be a different conversation and different game. We know they've tried this before and it hasn't worked. I find it weird how people continuously focus on Joel lying but completely gloss over the fact the fireflies lie and really have no idea what they're doing.

Exactly. The game literally tells us the FFs and the doctors are not righteous saviours and are scrambling as much as anyone.

The Last of Us is so much better than the overrated drivel that is Children of Men. Only good thing about that movie is the 60 second no-cut building bomb scene. The Road >>>

Nice drive by shit post, lol.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,963
The fact the Fireflies wouldn't even let Joel say goodbye should tell you a lot about them. They knocked him out as he was trying to save Ellie from drowning, immediately prep her for the operation and put a gun to Joel's head and tell him to fuck off.
 

Deleted member 249

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As expected OP's bailed. This wasn't an attempt at a discussion, it was an attempt to kick the hive.
 

-PyramidSong

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Oct 25, 2017
1,673
Argentina
Here is a full quote of Druckman about Joel and the end.

"[Joel's] arc is all about this irrational love he feels for this kid. He would do anything to take away her pain and definitely anything in the world save her from harm. It's about how far this guy is willing to go to save Ellie. Clearly he's willing to give up his life (he frankly doesn't care much about it)," said Druckman.

"There are all these walls he's put around himself to try to protect his emotional state. He's willing to put all those down and put himself at risk because it's worth it. It's worth it to put himself at risk to have that love of your kid, even though you might have to deal with something horrible happening. He's even willing to put his soul on the line, damning the rest of man kind in exchange for this girl's life. What happens here with this lie and this emphasis on the lie, is that this has taken his journey to the end of the line," said Druckmann.

"Ellie starts off clinging to parental figures thinking she needs someone much stronger than her to survive in this world. It starts of with Malrene and quickly shifts to Joel as they start off this journey. She wants to be like Joel; she looks up to him and she kind of wants to win his respect… When Ellie's talking to Sam, she talks about how her greatest fear, more than anything, is ending up alone. But as the story develops, we find out she's quite capable and in fact she's been capable this whole time. At times she stands up to Joel and forces him to respect her as an equal…", said Druckmann.

"Then we come to that ending and that lie and that okay and what does that okay mean? It's definitely not a complacent 'yea I'll go along with you', in fact, it's the opposite. It's Ellie waking up for the first time, waking up and realizing she can't rely on him anymore. While she loves him for what he's done for her, she hates him for robbing her of that choice. She knows that she has to leave him and make her own decisions and mistakes."
 

BoxManLocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
France
For participating in the murder of a child who didn't know what was about to happen? Weird flex, but ok.

How? They were going to kill Ellie without telling her knowing full well they've done that before and it didn't work. How is that innocence?

Everybody's bringing up that guy because that particular scene is too restricted for its own good, though the point it's trying to make is the right one.

The fact that there's a single kill animation and the doctor dies even if you shoot him in the toe is kind of a bad look.

I'm sure 2019 ND would have implemented several scenarios that ended up in you having to kill him no matter what, because this one feels like an oversight and it kind of sticks out considering the importance of the moment.

Unarmed. Had his hands up. Said don't shoot please. Joel was in no danger. Shooting an unarmed man is bad mmkay

Huh he's pointing a scalpel at your face, I suggest you rewatch that moment on YT or something. You're mixing him up with the nurses, and you can spare both of them.
 

dunkzilla

alt account
Banned
Dec 13, 2018
4,762
From what I remember, it's left vague if she knew. Marlene even says "it's what she'd want, and you know it", and Joel just shoots her in response.

Granted it was messed up that they didn't explicitly tell her (though Marlene might have told her ages ago, we don't know), but there's every chance she'd have been willing to go through with it. Joel took that option away from her, and if she ever finds out, it'd eat her up inside over the following years. I really hope that's the direction TLoU2 takes, at least.
Is that not just Marlene forcing her views and thoughts onto Ellie? Would Ellie have been so receptive to it if she knew they had tried it before and failed? The fireflies never gave Ellie a proper decision to make because they held back information in fear that she wouldn't make the decision they wanted her to make.
 

Deleted member 249

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Unarmed. Had his hands up. Said don't shoot please. Joel was in no danger. Shooting an unarmed man is bad mmkay
Not unarmed. Tries to attack you with a scalpel. Hasn't informed the girl about the particulars of the operation. Is operating on her without her consent. Is wilfully distorting and misrepresenting the truth.
 

Sacul64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,761
Those doctors weren't trying to avert the eradication of the human race, though

It's supposed to be contentious - the only people immune were born after the apocalypse, so they're the only test subjects available - but Ellie had some agency in it, from what I remember. It's a messed up world but at least she made the choice to do it. Joel basically overwrote that free will of hers and lied to her about it.

But that means humanity is evolving and not in danger of being eradicated. Killing the people who are imune would end the human race. As far as I can remember nothing in the game paints the fireflies as being good people.
 
OP
OP
ItWasMeantToBe19
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
As expected OP's bailed. This wasn't an attempt at a discussion, it was an attempt to kick the hive.

I'm discussing this in another Discord as well and I've been gone for like five minutes?

I still don't think anyone has articulated a theme to what the game is about if Joel was right (and don't say, "oh, nobody thinks Joel was right" in a thread where a bunch of people have said Joel was right).
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Unarmed. Had his hands up. Said don't shoot please. Joel was in no danger. Shooting an unarmed man is bad mmkay

Why are you so consistently misinformed and wrong, like, all the time? It's genuinely perplexing how often you make low quality posts. And how do you even forget you play as Ellie in this game? Lol. It's literally a big and prominent chunk or part of the game.

The doctor in question isn't unarmed, he has a knife in his hand and threatens to kill you if you come any closer.
 

Braaier

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
13,237
Not unarmed. Tries to attack you with a scalpel. Hasn't informed the girl about the particulars of the operation. Is operating on her without her consent. Is wilfully distorting and misrepresenting the truth.
I remember Joel pulled a gun and you HAD to shoot him. The game wouldn't let you walk away.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,115
Unarmed. Had his hands up. Said don't shoot please. Joel was in no danger. Shooting an unarmed man is bad mmkay
Umm... The doctor is threatening Joel with a scalpel. If you approach the doctor unarmed, he will attack you and as a counter-attack Joel will kill him with the scalpel.

I'm not saying Joel is a good person cause he's not. But that doctor sure as hell is not a good person either.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Is that not just Marlene forcing her views and thoughts onto Ellie? Would Ellie have been so receptive to it if she knew they had tried it before and failed? The fireflies never gave Ellie a proper decision to make because they held back information in fear that she wouldn't make the decision they wanted her to make.

My point is that both the Fireflies and Joel messed up for not thinking to give Ellie the actual choice and agency. Neither is the hero or the villain, and that's pretty much the whole game in a nutshell.
 

NightShift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,001
Australia
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The fact that we are still discussing the ending to this game after so many years proves how brilliant the writing is.

BTW, I'm on OPs side. Keep fighting the good fight.
 

Deleted member 249

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I'm discussing this in another Discord as well and I've been gone for like five minutes?

I still don't think anyone has articulated a theme to what the game is about if Joel was right (and don't say, "oh, nobody thinks Joel was right" in a thread where a bunch of people have said Joel was right).
The theme is that there's no actual good or evil, right or wrong in the world, and Joel acted as he did specifically with the intention of saving someone he cares for rather than a nebulous chance to save an abstraction like "humanity". Again, "needs of one versus needs of many". The game isn't subtle about this. Have you played it?
 

Atolm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,826
I'm tired of the rethoric "Joel was good/bad". There's no manichaeism in the game. Joel is a flawed character, sure, but those around him are no better.

I think people totally misunderstood the message of the game. It's not "Oh no, he doomed the world forever" but "What would you do to save your daughter in a world where happiness lies only on familiar relations and friendships through the years?".

The world in The Last of Us is done for and everyone is just looking out for themselves.
 

Braaier

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
13,237
Why are you so consistently misinformed and wrong, like, all the time? It's perplexing has often you make low quality posts.

The doctor in question isn't unarmed, he has a knife in his hand and threatens to kill you if you come any closer.
I just watched a video to refresh my memory. One Dr had a scalpel. The others were unarmed. He killed everyone
 
OP
OP
ItWasMeantToBe19
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
I'm tired of the rethoric "Joel was good/bad". There's no manichaeism in the game. Joel is a flawed character, sure, but those around him are no better.

I think people totally misunderstood the message of the game. It's not "Oh no, he doomed the world forever" but "What would you do to save your daughter in a world where happiness lies only on familiar relations and friendships through the years?".

The world in The Last of Us is done for and everyone is just looking out for themselves.

I feel like "What would you do to save your daughter" isn't the actual theme when he then lies to her to exert control over her.
 

dunkzilla

alt account
Banned
Dec 13, 2018
4,762
My point is that both the Fireflies and Joel messed up for not thinking to give Ellie the actual choice and agency. Neither is the hero or the villain, and that's pretty much the whole game in a nutshell.
Yeah I agree with that. My question is why people cling to the fireflies forgetting that they're as fucked up and evil as Joel. People like to place them in two different boxes where the fireflies are the real heroes, but they're just woefully misinterpreting the narrative.
 

Agent 47

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Jun 24, 2018
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I'm tired of the rethoric "Joel was good/bad". There's no manichaeism in the game. Joel is a flawed character, sure, but those around him are no better.

I think people totally misunderstood the message of the game. It's not "Oh no, he doomed the world forever" but "What would you do to save your daughter in a world where happiness lies only on familiar relations and friendships through the years?".

The world in The Last of Us is done for and everyone is just looking out for themselves.
Yeh it's strange people can't see that all hope has been lost and there is no saving the world. Joel knew it and obviously didn't want to throw away the one good thing in his life or destory Ellies life for it.
 

kpaadet

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,741
The whole ending of TLOU was fucking stupid. Why not just have Ellie conceive a child, who would likely also be immune if the immunity is genetic in which case they could easily study the genes that lead to that.
Yeah your ending definitely wouldn't be stupid, let's just get this 14 year old girl pregnant and then wait 9 months and study them, even when we are told the key to her immunity is in her brain and not her DNA.
 

ZhugeEX

Senior Analyst at Niko Partners
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Oct 24, 2017
3,099
Probably not a good idea to call anyone who disagrees with you a flat earther, OP.
 
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