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scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,054
The post-launch results on Metro Exodus are going to be very interesting to see.

I'm confident the game's gonna tank on Epic's store, and the money they got up front won't be nearly enough in the end to make up for both the lost sales and goodwill with fans. This, in turn, will make the people behind the decision at Deep Silver look complete idiots in the eyes of THQ Nordic AB's CEO, and he'll be embarrassed after having stuck his neck out for them publicly, and make changes as a result.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, and it could break sales records, but I highly doubt it.
 

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
The game comes out this month and nothing indicates that this will be a breakout success like Witcher 3, at all. W3 had hype for months and was talked about basically from the "walking gif" moment until release.
The only real big moment for Metro was the Epic exclusivity deal.

Of the three big games coming out on Feb 15, Metro is the one that will likely review the best (strong single player FPS, not console exclusive, no online hooks to cause trouble)

These games also kinda fly under the radar anyways and have a long tail on sales, and Deep Silver tends to not be too insane with sales expectations as a whole

I'm confident the game's gonna tank on Epic's store, and the money they got up front won't be nearly enough in the end to make up for both the lost sales and goodwill with fans. This, in turn, will make the people behind the decision at Deep Silver look complete idiots in the eyes of THQ Nordic AB's CEO, and he'll be embarrassed after having stuck his neck out for them publicly, and make changes as a result.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, and it could break sales records, but I highly doubt it.

There's really no indication that any of this is going to be the case, mostly because we have no idea about sales and probably won't for months

Also if Epic/Deep Silver want to declare it a win, they're either going to make it happen no matter what or just say so, they don't care
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
I have no problem with Epic pushing for exclusives in order to put their store on the map. We've seen the exclusives strategy for decades on consoles. At least on PC you don't need to buy a 300 or 400 console in order tu play an exclusive game...

I understand the store is not as good as Steam, but it's been around for few months what did you expect ? To be it as good as Steam from Day 1?

I can understand Steam users who were expecting to play the game on Steam and cannot anymore and are pissed about it. That sucks and I simpatize. But that notion that in order to have an opinion we must be a PC gamer is flat out ridiculous !

A pc is not a console. Most pc gamers don't like exclusivity deals, Epic is getting lots of flack for this on game sites and social media. No one wants moneyhatting for store exclusivity to become the norm on pc. A significant amount of people won't buy Metro Exodus on EGS because of this, in addition to the Steam-or-bust crowd, impulse buyers and people just forgetting about the game because it isn't on their wish list on Steam.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,581
Honestly, I don't even think the Epic Store exclusivity is that big of a deal. Though I ended up buying on Steam before the exclusivity window began, it wouldn't have bothered me too much to buy off Epic, especially if the promised discount actually materialized for Canadian customers. But even then, I think it's not a great look for anyone to essentially hold the franchise hostage over Epic Store sales, even if the dev in question was a) speaking for themselves only and b) not actually using it as a threat. Like, at minimum, even without the controversy over the exclusivity, you're still talking about a storefront whose audience is unproven and unknown in size. Maybe people will make an exception to buy your game off Epic only, maybe they won't. To use it as a general indicator for the health of the franchise on PC seems very short-sighted.

The only way this makes sense is if Deep Silver thinks the franchise isn't profitable on PC unless they get 88% of the revenue plus whatever undisclosed sum is coming from Epic. This seems silly to me; Metro was a franchise built first and foremost for PC. 2033 had special enhancements for PC via DirectX 11 and 4A at the time had expressed a desire to push the limits of PC. For Deep Silver to actually come to the conclusion that Metro doesn't work on PC indicates a greater change in philosophy than just "well shit Exodus didn't sell well on PC because of our weird market choices, guess no one plays it on PC anymore."
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
A pc is not a console. Most pc gamers don't like exclusivity deals, Epic is getting lots of flack for this on game sites and social media. No one wants moneyhatting for store exclusivity to become the norm on pc. A significant amount of people won't buy Metro Exodus on EGS because of this, in addition to the Steam-or-bust crowd, impulse buyers and people just forgetting about the game because it isn't on their wish list on Steam.
Social media absolutely.

I think I have seen a grand total of 1 article which didn't write about this is a horribly biased pro-Epic manner, and that was by PC Gamer.
 

MrH

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,995
Well they only have themselves to blame when it bombs, and we the fans get to suffer from their greed.
 

matimeo

UI/UX Game Industry Veteran
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
979
Another thing to remember developers rarely get to choose what platform to release on. That's up to whoever is funding development or owns the ip.

As a developer even if you own your ip you need to pitch to publishers and publishers may not want to fund for all the skus you want.

The next option is to self publish to a select sku (if you own your ip, and get permission from the publisher who funded your core development)

That means setting up a new side to your business, having money on hand to invest in the port , and resources. (Which why you often see smaller devs stagger sku releases)


The other option is going full on independent like a Bungie and that takes lots of investment from somewhere as well. Potentially you get an investor who will give you more freedom.
 

InspectorJones

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,621
What a trainwreck this PC release is looking to be. Regardless of intention, this definitely doesn't look good to the PC gamer who will just scan this headline.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,227
Spain
I love how some people talk about how it's fine because "well consoles have exclusives too!" and it's like

dude

consoles sucessfully switched to paid online

microsoft tried to translate that to PC with GFWL

PC gamers said fuck you

same thing is happening today

and that's without getting into the fact that exclusives for a platform make more sense than artificial exclusives inside the same platform
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
Wow, what the heck is going on? Are they TRYING to piss off the pc fanbase or something? Because this is how you do it. First you force them to buy the game via a new launcher which also does not sell their games on any third party sites, so no gmg/gamersgate, etc where many people buy games to use vouchers/coupons on. Then you basically tell those people who are already a little peed off about having their options cut off that if they do not buy it you'll stop releasing the games on the pc platform period?

Ok, g'luck with that. Someone really needs to tell them how not to piss off their fanbase because this is the exact opposite of what you should be saying after the whole Steam to Epic fiasco.
 

Deleted member 45957

Guest
Denuvo excludes any buying possibility for me, regardless of the store exclusivity.
With this stance, they prevent themselves from success anyway.
Will buy it DRM free on GOG for 5 bucks next year.
 

YukiroCTX

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,994
Euh yes... I'm not a PC gamer. But does that mean I cannot have an opinion on the matter ? I still stand by what I said. More competition is good.

It is up to Epic to improve the client and storefront to entice consumers to use it, not just blindly supporting them for no reason that I've seen constantly in these Metro threads. That's literally what competition is about. I've read plenty of times about being a serious competitor but they're not even competing in features and currently at this point, none of what they're doing has actually benefit consumers at all so what's the point of the "competition". We're talking about a company that's currently earning billions a year with a huge company like Tencent. There's absolutely no reason why these companies shouldn't be able to compete on the same level when it comes to making clients. We're not talking about a client that's new either and been around for years. The reality is that none of the clients had any thoughts into improving the consumers experiences and the only reason why Steam seems so far ahead is because none of the clients have actually improved radically over the years like an actual competing client would have.

Developer: If hypothetically literally nobody buys the game, future games won't release.

Super literate gamers: HOW DARE YOU THREATEN US WITH FACTS AND CASUAL BUSINESS LOGIC.
This is a pretty awful perspective on the situation. If hypothetically "Nobody buying the game on Epic store" they won't make future games on PC and just ignore that Metro previously sold the most on another PC client.

Literally "support our poor business decision to make it exclusive or else you won't have these games anymore despite consumers previously buying their games with no issue making a huge contribution to the success that it is now.

I don't see any "facts or casual business logic" in that.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,201
Dark Space
I have no problem with Epic pushing for exclusives in order to put their store on the map. We've seen the exclusives strategy for decades on consoles. At least on PC you don't need to buy a 300 or 400 console in order tu play an exclusive game...

I understand the store is not as good as Steam, but it's been around for few months what did you expect ? To be it as good as Steam from Day 1?

I can understand Steam users who were expecting to play the game on Steam and cannot anymore and are pissed about it. That sucks and I simpatize. But that notion that in order to have an opinion we must be a PC gamer is flat out ridiculous !
Saying "it is a good thing and isn't a bid deal" when it doesn't affect your gaming in any sense is also ridiculous in its own way.

I game on all platforms, but say I was 100% only gaming on PC. If Microsoft bought exclusivity to a game that was once going to Playstation, and I jumped in a thread of unhappy PS gamers saying it was a good thing, wouldn't they ask me why I feel that way and question why I even say that when I don't game on consoles?

Of course YOU have no problem with Epic doing what they are, because it doesn't affect you in any way. You can be cold and business like in your thinking, unlike those who have to decide whether to buy games on their shitty store, or to wait out the exclusivity periods.

That is the difference. You are displaying no empathy for the actual consumers which is frankly frustrating.

As far as, "their store just came out, how can they compete with Steam any other way" goes, that it how business works. You are measured against a company as it is today, not as it was at its inception. I can't open a restaurant with bad food and ask the customers to understand because the chefs across the street have been cooking longer. If I just buy up all of the ingredients thinking it will force people to eat at my shitty restaurant instead of theirs, guess what? I'll quickly find out that people would rather not go out to eat at all.
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,054
There's really no indication that any of this is going to be the case, mostly because we have no idea about sales and probably won't for months

Also if Epic/Deep Silver want to declare it a win, they're either going to make it happen no matter what or just say so, they don't care

That's just what I think will happen. I would either expect them to try and spin whatever happens in a positive way, or just blame piracy. Regardless, I don't think it's going to do well, and I won't be surprised if changes occur down the line. I doubt the next game will skip PC, though. That'd be like CD Projekt Red skipping it for their next game.
 

matimeo

UI/UX Game Industry Veteran
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
979
It is up to Epic to improve the client and storefront to entice consumers to use it, not just blindly supporting them for no reason that I've seen constantly in these Metro threads. That's literally what competition is about. I've read plenty of times about being a serious competitor but they're not even competing in features and currently at this point, none of what they're doing has actually benefit consumers at all so what's the point of the "competition". We're talking about a company that's currently earning billions a year with a huge company like Tencent. There's absolutely no reason why these companies shouldn't be able to compete on the same level when it comes to making clients. We're not talking about a client that's new either and been around for years. The reality is that none of the clients had any thoughts into improving the consumers experiences and the only reason why Steam seems so far ahead is because none of the clients have actually improved radically over the years like an actual competing client would have.


This is a pretty awful perspective on the situation. If hypothetically "Nobody buying the game on Epic store" they won't make future games on PC and just ignore that Metro previously sold the most on another PC client.

Literally "support our poor business decision to make it exclusive or else you won't have these games anymore despite consumers previously buying their games with no issue making a huge contribution to the success that it is now.

I don't see any "facts or casual business logic" in that.


That's exactly how businesses think tho. I've witnessed it many times.

Took us millions to hire the right people to build this studio, oh one game out x games failed to meet expectations (expectations that were poorly forecasted even) lets lay off a portion of the studio. Yup.

Oh now make us another game that's bigger and better with less budget and resources.

Seen it too many times to count.

To be fair I've never worked on the publishing side so maybe they have data I can't understand.
 

Deleted member 10726

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,674
ResetERA
Yeah, no. Assuming that this would make people buy Metro Exodus on PC, wouldn't that just mean the next game would hinge on the same factors again?

If PC isn't a sustainable market for Metro just stop releasing games on it.
 

Artorias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,092
Developer: If hypothetically literally nobody buys the game, future games won't release.

Super literate gamers: HOW DARE YOU THREATEN US WITH FACTS AND CASUAL BUSINESS LOGIC.


This is where I'm at with this. The developer is being a bit frank, but yeah, if people don't buy the game and pirate it...this is definitely a possibility. It depends on how well the game does on consoles, and this seems like a game the console PS4/Xbox audience would enjoy.

If I do get it, it will be on PS4, so either way none of this really affects me. And I don't intend to pass over a great title because of it.

A narrative driven FPS game with a wide open level design (better than open world, imo), horror elements, survival aspects, and quest with actual substance? Yeah, good luck with the boycott everyone, but it's not for me. I don't want the developer to suffer because of a questionable choice made by corporate.


P.S I understand why everyone is upset, but I do not care enough about Steam to let a decision like this deter me.
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,054
P.S I understand why everyone is upset, but I do not care enough about Steam to let a decision like this deter me.

Like I've said, it's the lack of any sort of offline mode that's my main deterrent. Requiring an internet connection to start a single-player game is bullshit.

Dude should be ashamed to be a journalist.

Don't you mean other journalists should be ashamed he calls himself one?
 

Toadofsky

User requested ban
Banned
Mar 8, 2018
303
Maybe this isn't the right analogy but, talk about punching your audience in the face, then asking for an apology for them punching you.
 

Conkerkid11

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,947
Developer: If hypothetically literally nobody buys the game, future games won't release.

Super literate gamers: HOW DARE YOU THREATEN US WITH FACTS AND CASUAL BUSINESS LOGIC.
Meanwhile, you're making this post after having only read the thread title.

Maybe this isn't the right analogy but, talk about punching your audience in the face, then asking for an apology for them punching you.
haPYOTZ.gif
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
This is a pretty awful perspective on the situation. If hypothetically "Nobody buying the game on Epic store" they won't make future games on PC and just ignore that Metro previously sold the most on another PC client.

Literally "support our poor business decision to make it exclusive or else you won't have these games anymore despite consumers previously buying their games with no issue making a huge contribution to the success that it is now.

I don't see any "facts or casual business logic" in that.
If nobody had purchased Metro 2033 when they made it exclusive to Steam, Metro Last Light would likely not have been on PC.

The plan back in 2011 was for STALKER 2 to have always online DRM to curb piracy. If sales on PC had collapsed, the STALKER series simply would have switched to consoles.

What this is saying is that even if for whatever reason the boycott is successful (unlikely), it's going to backfire spectacularly.

Especially since Epic have endless quantities of "fuck you" money. They will buy more and more and more games away from Steam. This train isn't stopping. Nothing can stop it.
 

Techno

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,409
He's been on a tirade against steam and has been fervently defending the epic store for a while now, with extremely faulty logic at best. Maybe he's just excited about the influencer kickback that the epic store will offer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

He probably got money-hatted by Epic for 12 months.
 

Toadofsky

User requested ban
Banned
Mar 8, 2018
303
He's been on a tirade against steam and has been fervently defending the epic store for a while now, with extremely faulty logic at best. Maybe he's just excited about the influencer kickback that the epic store will offer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Or making sure to stick up for the indie developers he's friends with. Or maybe just be contrarian, I don't know, Waypoint is the last place I'd ever go for anything gaming news, major gaming websites for that matter (Dual Shockers and Siliconera are pretty good though)
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,054
Especially since Epic have endless quantities of "fuck you" money. They will buy more and more and more games away from Steam. This train isn't stopping. Nothing can stop it.

If the games don't sell, it'll stop. It's pretty silly to assume Epic will be able to convince the same publishers things will be different with the next game if the first one tanks.
 

RPGamer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
And if Epic pays for exclusivety of the next game too?

Joking, i mean it's a simple logic, if PC gamers don't buy a game the publisher will have to make decicions about platform choices. Honestly its pretty unrealistic that every PC gamer will boykott Metro Exodus. And they will expect it to sell less on PC in year 1 either way with this deal.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,098
If nobody had purchased Metro 2033 when they made it exclusive to Steam, Metro Last Light would likely not have been on PC.

If Metro 2033 had not sold well on [the largest marketplace on PC by an order of magnitude at it's time of release, where the most eyeballs are, as well as other storefronts including a retail release in 2010] that would have meant that the PC market was not interested in Metro 2033. Retail + Steam + Resellers captured effectively every person who was a PC gamer that might have been interested in that kind of game that year.

If Metro Exodus does not sell well on [an unproven storefront while ignoring all other storefronts including the one where a majority of your PC customers bought the last two games in the franchise which is also the largest single one in the world, plus a retail release in 2019] that tells us very little. Retail is was unhealthy in 2010, it is worse now, and the Epic store in 2019 is completely unproven, plus the circumstances surrounding your exclusivity are a PR disaster for your game.

There is going to be a Steam release in 12 months so long before their next release comes out they will know if the larger Steam audience is willing to buy their game when it releases.

Especially since Epic have endless quantities of "fuck you" money. They will buy more and more and more games away from Steam.

For a time, but that's an unsustainable policy that will just keep making people more and more angry.
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
Maybe all other entries in the franchise did not sold well enough, and that's the reason why they decided to risk go with epic in the first place. Maybe.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,956
Best post on ResetEra.
not really as consoles are unique platforms with a dedicated audience, you either sell your game on there or you don't. on pc you have many stores on the same platform,and so you may decide to sell your game only where it's more profitable. if the pubs want to take that gamble it's up to him, as it's up to the player if they want to get the client to play the game. i think it's a paid exclusivity and it will expire after 1 year, if you want to wait well play something else in the meantime

it's a little more than "lmao galaxybrain.jpg"
 

matimeo

UI/UX Game Industry Veteran
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
979
Like I've said, it's the lack of any sort of offline mode that's my main deterrent. Requiring an internet connection to start a single-player game is bullshit.

I think Epic said offline is coming. They made the same mistake Xbox did and built their platform around online required.

MS has far more engineers than Epic and it took them a bit to correct that on the Xbox platform. I think Phil even tweeted about this in the past.

Agree with you on that and that's a valid reason to hold off until you see how they handle offline. Many offline modes in current platforms still require check ins after so many days to verify licenses too. So the details of their implementation will be key.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,227
Spain
Especially since Epic have endless quantities of "fuck you" money. They will buy more and more and more games away from Steam. This train isn't stopping. Nothing can stop it.
If we manage to show enough rejection, at some point they'll be 100% sure that their attempt at an excuse for a store isn't going to make any money back. They'll stop eventually, I doubt they are into burning money.
 

Fachasaurus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,349
Ironically, these guys love pushing all the latest tech that PC has to offer. Isn't this one of the RTX showcase games?
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,054
And if Epic pays for exclusivety of the next game too?

Joking, i mean it's a simple logic, if PC gamers don't buy a game the publisher will have to make decicions about platform choices. Honestly its pretty unrealistic that every PC gamer will boykott Metro Exodus. And they will expect it to sell less on PC in year 1 either way with this deal.

The thing that makes this specific case interesting is there are already two games in this franchise we know were successful on Steam, so this won't be some hypothetical "how would it have done on Steam?" situation since the publisher has something to compare sales with directly. Plus, if the game sells well when it hits Steam next year compared to how it does on Epic's store, I doubt Deep Silver will do this again.
I think Epic said offline is coming. They made the same mistake Xbox did and built their platform around online required.

MS has far more engineers than Epic and it took them a bit to correct that on the Xbox platform. I think Phil even tweeted about this in the past.

Agree with you on that and that's a valid reason to hold off until you see how they handle offline. Many offline modes in current platforms still require check ins after so many days to verify licenses too. So the details of their implementation will be key.

Super Meat Boy can be started directly via the exe without having to run the launcher. If Metro Exodus works the same way (after activating Denuvo, that is), then I'll consider buying it at some point. But yeah, that's a big problem at the moment, at least for me. I rarely see it mentioned anywhere, so I assume most people either don't care or just don't know.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
If the game dosn't sell on EGS after strong pre-order sales on Steam, the publisher you work for can't be that much of an idiot and stop releasing the series on PC. This is just pure fear mongering, I understand that as a dev you can be that paranoid about these things, but this is not how things work.
 

MrBob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,668
I think Epic said offline is coming. They made the same mistake Xbox did and built their platform around online required.

MS has far more engineers than Epic and it took them a bit to correct that on the Xbox platform. I think Phil even tweeted about this in the past.

Agree with you on that and that's a valid reason to hold off until you see how they handle offline. Many offline modes in current platforms still require check ins after so many days to verify licenses too. So the details of their implementation will be key.

There aren't even cloud saves on the epic store. Nintendo has cloud saves. We are in 2019 and the epic store is basically just a store. It's ridiculous.

Looking at the roadmap it seems like a lot of features will be implemented between Q2 and Q4 2019. I think some of the disdain for the epic store will go down when epic actually makes the store a service and not just a store. Still, there will always be some controversy around items like opt in user reviews.