They won't be implemented. This is a big issue I have with some sort of socialist revolution as the answer to all our problems.
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UN Report: Global warming will get progressively worse and cannot be stopped over the next 30 years; A hotter future is now essentially locked in.
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I often wondered last year of all the global effort on a covid vaccine was spent on climate change would the collective brain power of the world find a solution?
The answer is probably no. And that's damning as many have searched for a solution for decades.
It's depressing we're slow walking to a mass crisis in migration and displacement alone.
The answer is probably no. And that's damning as many have searched for a solution for decades.
It's depressing we're slow walking to a mass crisis in migration and displacement alone.
Half of all people are not actually against green energy and good climate policies; instead, the people who are against them are the minority. The issue is we are hamstrung by archaic and bigoted voting systems that give undue power to that political conservative minority, which in turn is propped up by corporate lobbying. If instead our democracies were much more fairer and representative of what most Americans want, our country might've been farther along in helping mitigate this crisis. Instead we've simply allowed these broken systems to try and handle sweeping issues they were never designed to.
Oh i know they wont respond, they dont have an answer to the question. A few days ago that person said i was acting in bad faith just because i questioned the idea that socialism can fix climate change.
US really has some idiotic systems in place. As im from the EU i dont know fully how things work there, but things like: getting the most votes in a national election and still losing, fillibuster thing, and having literally a state without representation is crazy to me. I do like the way your tax system works tho
UN Report: Global warming will get progressively worse and cannot be stopped over the next 30 years; A hotter future is now essentially locked in.
A revolution is never happening, never mind a global one, which would be needed as polluters aren't centered in one country. So that is out of the question. The only thing you can do is vote and sway other voters to more green ideas, why would you even consider a revolution as an option?www.resetera.com
this isn't an answer
"revolutions just kinda happen, it'll be unpredictable" isn't a plan. I'm not banking the future of human civilization on a fucking hunch and an "it'll happen someday (source: dude, trust me)". that's not good enough.
out here, in the land of the hated devil "electoralism", there are plans. there are goals, there are different proposals for reaching those goals, and there are people who are currently dedicating themselves to making sure we walk down one of those paths. it'll be later than it ought to have been, it'll be less than it probably should, but 2c isn't an unreasonable projection given the direction things are heading currently (disclaimer: projecting things out 80 years is very dumb, but you do what you have to). 1.5c is optimistic, but still theoretically doable. it is a shame that it took this long, and organizations that intentionally misled the public and stood in the way should be held accountable for what they've done. but slowly, the world is moving. say that the climate plans are "inadequate" all you want, but at least they exist and we're working on them. they will be something. they will usher in a world that's probably Not Great, but will very likely avoid a world that's As Bad As Possible. we'll very likely avoid the 3c+ death spiral zones (current projections are ~3c if we just did nothing more from today onward, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect no further action at this point). we'll make it out mostly alive and mostly intact. and that's about the best we can say.
frankly, if socialist revolution is going to be the Good Answer, I'm all for it! I'm very ideologically agnostic here - I just want to do the most we possibly can to fight climate change. I'm entirely in favor of whatever will get us there the fastest - honestly, I'd love for socialist utopia to be just around the corner, so I don't have to sit here staring at legislative text for low-emission infrastructure credits. I'm just looking for a reason to believe your shit is going to actually work before we all burn alive. I'm looking for a reason to believe your shit is a better bet than what we're currently doing.
do you have one?
Our tax system is trash because it doesn't take into account simple marginal utility (basically, the less money you have, the more each individual dollar is worth to you because, you know, surviving is important) and we allow copious loopholes for billionaires. The functions of society are effectively shouldered by the most vulnerable. Our country just fucking sucks.
All very true, and many people whose necks are on the line first and foremost in this unfolding disaster have little economic say in how and where all the money and manpower goes in fighting it, nor are they offered much say in how much wasted, frivolous production is carried out (ostensibly in their name). A socialist society returning political and economic power to whom it belongs is already a leg up from day 1 by dint that the people whose very homes and lives are endangered, not out of touch political dynasts who struggle to represent them at the best of times, are directly involved in these decisions on the front lines and can far more accurately speak to what they need and what they can do without. Which isn't to say it's a silver bullet, but it's a better fit for the problem at hand that immediately opens an opportunity for degrowth and reallocation of existing production that doesn't involve taking a gamble on atmospheric spraying or eco-fascism cratering our GHG output by killing billions.
(sick snide owns, shazrobot & myth)
I can see how that could come off as snide, I didn't mean it that way, I meant 'they won't' as in 'good climate change policy won't be implemented'. I will edit, thanks for pointing that out.
Appreciate it. I think any system that puts the common people first will have better climate change policy than we have now. I have my preference, of course. I would much rather it be socialism than, say, a civilization-collapse induced tech-reviling primitivism meets stone age mystery religion.
I don't know how much I believe this. I think there are a lot of centrists and liberals (and even leftists, there's a reason most leftist leaders don't go too much into the lifestyle compromises required) who will suddenly become reactionary if the measures being proposed are things that make their consumer goods more expensive, or lower access to beef and other high-emission foods, or even seriously make gas-powered cars economically infeasible.
People's objective quality of life will probably improve in the long run, but if there's one thing I've observed over the last 20 years is that they're extremely sensitive to short term changes in their "access to luxuries"
There is absolutely public will for solutions to climate change that don't cost your average person anything. The problem is that those don't exist. Taxing the rich won't change the fact that suburban lifestyles are horribly wasteful and we need to begin urbanizing fast
Agreeing with an idea is a different from experiencing its effects and consequences. Climate change policies tend to poll relatively well. But the only way you'd see backlash is if you implemented them.
But we can't even get to the implementation stage because we keep entertaining this dumbass notion where conservatives have anything to fucking offer this country.
I'm sorry, this is nonsense. The global rate of emissions has not slowed down, it is accelerating. Even the second order rate of emissions is increasing. There is no evidence anywhere that action has been or will be taken that moves us to actually reduce emissions.
I stop responding to you because trying to talk to you is just walking in endless circles of doom posting and pessimism.
"We can change society."
"Yeah but people suck."
"We can change how people are."
"Yeah but people suck."
"We can change their opinions."
"Yeah but people suck."
I have already in another thread responded to you about the power of a true democracy and rule of majority under a socialist system, but you answered with the same annoying "yeah but people suck" answer. When it is clear that the person I am talking to is just an absolute brickwall of doom and gloom I tire and doesn't wanna engage anymore. I gave you already a ton of material to go through, deal with some of that instead, you somehow want some bloody post-it notes of "easy fixes" but there are none, the world is bloody more complicated than that and it requires some research to understand it, and socialists DO that research. Liberals, centrists, conservatives etc. are naive fools who doesn't bother to ever open a book about the philosophy and ideals of their political ideology, just hoping with some lassie faire that things will go their way in the end, or at best look at some stock numbers and go "Hey, look at how much money this company is earning! Surely some of that will money will trickle down to me at any point."
Yes.
I believe that it lies in the people's interest of self-preservation and future generation preservation to be socialist. In our current system of governance and economics we rely on the whims of the minority, the rich, the people with actual political power. We pretend to have choice in our elections but all we do are picking career politicians who's vested interests are not really in us the population who owns less than half of the worlds total capital, but in the rich. We pretend that we "vote with our wallets" and somehow make a difference but all these companies regularly gets bailed out by the state when it goes bad for them cause the state and politicians are worried of loosing voters when businesses have to close and people loose their jobs, which will look bad in their precious election polls.
The reason why people are against greener measures as myth likes to talk about is because the ruling class **lie** to us. And they have a reason to lie. They have a reason to obfuscate the truth. They have a reason to mislead us. Cause they are protecting *their jobs*. They are protecting *their investments and capital*. In a socialist system, they will slowly cease to exist. We cease to have career politicians because we would, for example, enforce their wages to that of a regular worker's, because they are regular workers, because we instead of choosing candidates choose delegates from different areas to represent us, not the people who stand up in long winded election processes but people we lay our trust in as "the actually most decent person for the job" in our respective work places. It is a much more intricate process than that but I know it is very possible to eliminate this problem, as this is exactly what the Bolsheviks did in 1917 and 1918.
If we, the people, suddenly held this much power in our hands we could refocus so much of our money, labour and time into measures against this current global catastrophe. Instead of wasting trillions into "defence" and military, all that capital and resources instead of researching new ways to murder our fellow people would instead be but solely into better solutions to live in better harmony with nature in order to minimise future damages. And for the damages already occurred we would be able to have a TON more effort and research put into safety and practices to minimise any damage caused by the ongoing crisis. And I believe most heartily that people WOULD make those decisions cause in such a society there would be a lot less of these distracting, lying voices to confuse and mislead people, cause they would have much less reason to do exactly that.
In a socialist, planned economy system we would make sure to look after ALL people's needs with food and housing, so nobody would have to be worried about loosing their homes or go hungry, that way people could voluntarily give up their current occupations if we deemed it too harming for the future while we came up with new solutions and employments to put their labour power into use. This is completely possible to do as companies already like Amazon, Walmart etc. have massive logistical systems in place to plan, produce and distribute goods at a global scale. Systems we could employ to do the same but without profit expectations. A time would go where people are compensated for their work within this system when they work, that would be the initial first stage of socialism, but over time we would eliminate all that as rising production (in areas we NEED production) increases and people's opinion about work changes, where work turns voluntarily rather than enforced fore the sake of literal survival and avoiding state violence as punishment for not working.
This is just a small excerpt of thoughts on this but there are tons more, and I invite you gladly to come and discuss further in the OT about this where there are tons of people, many WAY smarter than me, who can answer your questions about these things.
First off show me when I was doom and gloom about this, being against socialism isnt that. Don't give me fckin books to read, tell me how a socialist system would fix things if half the population is against it. And what's with these strawmen? Doom and gloom, lassie faire, trickle down economics?? The last two labels I don't support, never have and never will. You can try to make me look like some right wing devil, but that's just not what I am. And wow a socialist talking about naivety, socialism through history has never worked and you're here telling me how it will work and on top of that fix climate change wow.
Theres a lot to unpack here…but pointing at socialism In history when capitalist imperialist opponents spent trillions and engaged in proxy wars to sabotage it is disingenuous. Hell I can point at capitalism which absolutely has doomed the planet to a slow and agonizing end for the value of shareholders is absolutely a valid example that capitalism is cancer on the planet that needs to be burned away. Sadly it won't be the working class that will do it, it's plant that will do it.
It'll be fun to see capitalists preaching the virtue of the system from Wall Street when Manhattan is under water.
Add to that also Russia and it's subsequent civil war when capitalist nations invaded and tried to quell the socialist uprising in the country.
Or in your language "wow a capitalist holding their hands over their eyes ignoring history wow much understand so enlight".
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Add to that also Russia and it's subsequent civil war when capitalist nations invaded and tried to quell the socialist uprising in the country.
This. Anti Socialists love to gloss over history and act like the failed socialist movements were because it's a broken system never acknowledging that the US, NATO and the western powers out spend it, and out warred it at every step of the way.
Well 30 years of unfettered unchecked global hyper capitalism has now doomed us. While Fox News pits the people against each other over masks and borders, the world is on fire and the shareholders collect their wealth and build rockets to monetize space.
I sometimes wonder what would happen if the entire world switched to a Gross Domestic Happiness model, where you know the well being of your population is actually a government mandated metric to strive for before profit.
But that would make 0.01% of the population really unhappy is just not cricket!
The fundamental issue here is that revolutions very rarely address the fundamental issue with corruption, and very often simply shift corruption from one party to another (you only need to look at Russia or Cuba where the corrupt aristocratic regime was replaced with a socialist regime corrupt to the point where it would make American billionaires green with envy). Given that climate change is in one part a corruption issue (and the other part being an energy issue in which replacing a government doesn't magically make the power grid run on solar energy), a revolution would do very little with the issue of climate change at best, and at worst worsen the situation (planned economies putting so much power in the hands of party apparatchiks is a recipe for massive corruption regardless of popular will - as party apparatchiks have a history of simply ignoring them for their own self-benefit).
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I'm not the other person, I won't say that socialism is impossible or unsustainable, because I don't think it is, but I also don't think it's inherently more conducive to environmentalism. Removing the profit motive from activity, at this point, won't change the lifestyle expectations, and it's also not like socialist and communist countries thus far have a great environmental record. The problem is production, and to reduce production you need to go to war against abundance.The sort of socialism pitched and attempting to be developed in the West usually punts the question of what you do with demand for consumer goods and access to suburban housing and a host of other problems down the road, and those are the things that are immediately driving emissions now alongside power and transportation.
Socialism will remove some structural barriers to change in the form of entrenched owners who resist structural change. The cultural shift to tamp down the reactionary wave that arises whenever our unsustainably abundant lifestyles are challenged will be a decades long project. Its worth doing, because its the right thing to do, but I get annoyed when people act like its the magic bullet to accelerate fixing climate change now
Socialism will remove some structural barriers to change in the form of entrenched owners who resist structural change. The cultural shift to tamp down the reactionary wave that arises whenever our unsustainably abundant lifestyles are challenged will be a decades long project. Its worth doing, because its the right thing to do, but I get annoyed when people act like its the magic bullet to accelerate fixing climate change now
I'm curious how the inherent expansionist aspects of Capitalism can wrestle with the fact that sort of thing will make significant portions of the planet practically uninhabitable in the next 30-40 years? It's why ExxonMobil contributed to Climate Change denial even though they knew about the disasters of Climate Change since the 1970s, they will always insulate and continue as they have unless compelled to do otherwise. I'm also curious what it would mean for American imperial hegemony to move away from the petrodollar.
OP
OP
IMO the US is in far more danger of collapsing into an authoritarian regime than having any chance of a political or social revolution moving towards a socialist democracy.
It is no secret we got here by unchecked capitalism, unabashed exploitation and a greed is godly ideology.
We are a two party system where one party is actively looking to tear down the tools of a democratic system. State legislatures are amending state constitutions so that they could override the citizens votes and send their own chosen electors next go-around. Christofascism has taken hold of the America's "heartland" and the GOP death cult is in full swing with no regard for human life. Bolsonaro jr. joined Mike Lindell's symposium along with Steve Bannons, Wendy Rogers and many other low ranking conservative figures to fantasize about a stolen election, playing Bolsonaro's propaganda videos. Tucker Carlson who has millions of viewers went to Hungary to praise Viktor Orban. Disgraced former General Mike Flynn is traveling the country using grassroots subterfuge promoting an armed insurgency behind the guise of a holy war. The conservative movement is fucking radical and extraordinarily dangerous at this point. White nationalism is en vogue and the push for a white ethnostate is the societal undercurrent.
These people don't give a single solitary fuck for climate change.
It is no secret we got here by unchecked capitalism, unabashed exploitation and a greed is godly ideology.
We are a two party system where one party is actively looking to tear down the tools of a democratic system. State legislatures are amending state constitutions so that they could override the citizens votes and send their own chosen electors next go-around. Christofascism has taken hold of the America's "heartland" and the GOP death cult is in full swing with no regard for human life. Bolsonaro jr. joined Mike Lindell's symposium along with Steve Bannons, Wendy Rogers and many other low ranking conservative figures to fantasize about a stolen election, playing Bolsonaro's propaganda videos. Tucker Carlson who has millions of viewers went to Hungary to praise Viktor Orban. Disgraced former General Mike Flynn is traveling the country using grassroots subterfuge promoting an armed insurgency behind the guise of a holy war. The conservative movement is fucking radical and extraordinarily dangerous at this point. White nationalism is en vogue and the push for a white ethnostate is the societal undercurrent.
These people don't give a single solitary fuck for climate change.
We ruined the future of the whole planet. It's not just the future generation, or the current generations. There's a human-made shift in our climate and that will affect the whole planet, all vegetation, any living species, any inorganic object on this planet will see a change driven by a our own decisions.
Can any of you two explain to me how the USA caused the socialist government of my country, Bulgaria, to collapse, I'll be waiting. Stfu with this idea that the only reason socialism hasn't worked is because of the USA, anyway answer my question above, please.
Add to that also Russia and it's subsequent civil war when capitalist nations invaded and tried to quell the socialist uprising in the country.
Or in your language "wow a capitalist holding their hands over their eyes ignoring history wow much understand so enlight".
You mean like the time the US and its allies claimed that Bulgaria tried to assassinate Pope John Paul II?
Half of American electors voted for Trump and people here are dreaming up socialist revolutions that will solve climate change somehow.
Even if that revolution happens this is still a global problem. That whole American first centric view is useless.
I know people feel powerless (because they are) but if you think some socialist revolution will happen in the states then I have bad news for you.
Go vote on candidates that defend good climate policies, try to reduce your carbon footprint so you feel some control over this whole thing and hope for the best.
Even if that revolution happens this is still a global problem. That whole American first centric view is useless.
I know people feel powerless (because they are) but if you think some socialist revolution will happen in the states then I have bad news for you.
Go vote on candidates that defend good climate policies, try to reduce your carbon footprint so you feel some control over this whole thing and hope for the best.
Someone in 1775:
"Look, I know nothing is really that bad for us, since we're British, and it's mostly the rich people complaining about taxes to the crown, but if you think that some burguiose revolution will happen here in America where they force us to conscript in their armies and fight for independence and we somehow win against, and I need to remind you of this, the British goddamn Empire, I have some bad news for you."
Coming from the country that was born out of a revolution and then had a civil war in an attempted white supremacy revolution of slavery rights.
You think that theory which never gained traction caused the fall of the dictatorship? Jeez this actually is mind-blowing. Some people in America said it's the Bulgarian KGB and THAT caused the socialist government to collapse, really?
Okay, here we go. 2 days after the IPCC report this is what we're dealing with.
www.cnbc.com
we are going to continue increasing emissions. There is no stopping this fucking train.
It's just disheartening, incredibly disheartening. But all we can do is try and keep trying I guess
White House calls on OPEC to boost oil production as gasoline prices rise
White House calls on OPEC to boost oil production as gasoline prices rise
The White House is calling on OPEC+ to take action as surging gas prices prompt fears that rising inflation will derail the economic recovery.
www.cnbc.com
we are going to continue increasing emissions. There is no stopping this fucking train.
It's just disheartening, incredibly disheartening. But all we can do is try and keep trying I guess
Bulgaria was directly targeted in the Cold War. You surely don't expect me to prove to you that the US was involved in the Cold War.
But how did the US cause the government to collapse? Do you actually have an answer or you trying to be a smartass
People's Republic of Bulgaria
1946 to 1990
Soviet Union
1922 to 1991
Yeah, I dunno how a country closely interlinked to the Stalinist Soviet Union, predicted by pretty much every classic Marxist thinker to be a degenerated workers state doomed to fail in the long run, somehow could have failed.
I'm impressed that a topic about how billions of people are about to be displaced from their homes turned into a debate about socialism off the back of my completely sardonic answer of "revolution or pray" to the question of "what else can we do aside from voting?" Like, I didn't even say the word socialism.
This right here is why we're fucked.
This right here is why we're fucked.
A fight for independence and a civil war are both different things from a socialist revolution.
Revolutions are also fought for power, not something like climate change. Especially since implementing the climate friendly measures would then require a lot of effort and coordination, something that usually doesn't exist in a post-revolution society for a while.
You also need an upper middle class that wants that power, something there isn't in this case since the upper middle class is doing fine currently, especially now that COVID affected lower income populations the most.
Lack of food might lead to a revolt but, when that lack of food happens, it will probably be too late anyway since any post revolution society would have to do a lot of work to get things right. They couldn't just plant more food if the climate is what made crops disappear.
Not only will a socialist revolt in the US not happen but, even if it did, it would not solve anything because the timeline we have right now requires an already stable society to work towards the goal instead of a post revolution one without the support of half the country (the half that also has a lot of guns) on their side. A civil war wouldn't help global warming.
And even after that you also have the rest of the world who needs to execute their targets and none of them seem headed that way.
Interesting, so a group of socialist countries collapsed because of their own socialist system, thanks for proving me right
I came here to see how the discussion was going and saw the "we need a socialist revolution" discourse and I couldn't keep it to myself.
Because some people think the only way to deal with climate change is with a socialist revolution
lol my dude, we've been doing that and look where it is getting us.
Multiple Democrats voted for this shit just last night:
Capitalism will never have the required sense of urgency because it's designed to exploit every little bit it can, at the expense of others. Exploitation IS the system.
I'm gonna be real with y'all, I don't think falling hook line sinker for Biden's nonsense about "We CaNT be PessIMISCtIc aBoUT ClImaTe ChaNge" and repeating to others like some mantra, is the wave.
Pessimism is a natural response to powerlessness. Specially power you didn't even decide to give away. It's been ceded by people before any of us.
I say, instead of cheerleading the US's consistent two-faced incompetence and regurgitating whatever your president (or whichever politician you treat like a celebrity) is saying? Maybe consider alternative options.
Well okay, you figure it out, then. Whoever you are.
Pessimism is a natural response to powerlessness. Specially power you didn't even decide to give away. It's been ceded by people before any of us.
I say, instead of cheerleading the US's consistent two-faced incompetence and regurgitating whatever your president (or whichever politician you treat like a celebrity) is saying? Maybe consider alternative options.
Well okay, you figure it out, then. Whoever you are.
I mean whatever it is it's more probable than a socialist revolution.
Ok.
Stopping the growth in global productive capacity is necessary (but not sufficient) in the medium to long term in order to eliminate fossil fuel emissions. How do we induce capitalists to stop growth of production?
That's not intended as a hook to force a discussion of socialism. It's an earnest question. Sustainability implies stasis; how do we achieve that stasis? What policies do we need to get there, how do we maintain a profit motive in a world without global productivity growth, and so forth.
Stopping the growth in global productive capacity is necessary (but not sufficient) in the medium to long term in order to eliminate fossil fuel emissions. How do we induce capitalists to stop growth of production?
That's not intended as a hook to force a discussion of socialism. It's an earnest question. Sustainability implies stasis; how do we achieve that stasis? What policies do we need to get there, how do we maintain a profit motive in a world without global productivity growth, and so forth.
No one thought that.
I sarcastically said "revolution or pray" to one of your questions about what to do, and I guess the word "revolution" broke something in you and another member, because you both immediately characterized the idea as "socialist" and shut it down, which in turn invited political disagreement, even though I never used the word socialism (revolution =/= socialism unless you think America became a Red Paradise after we broke off from England? Like, what the hell.)
So yeah, let's all stop with the irrelevant political silliness and understand the point I meant to make: there is ultimately no action normal people can take at this point that will lead to us saving the planet from heating at this point, no matter how many sea turtles you decide to personally save by cutting up plastic soda can holders.
Ok, I guess we'll just wait to vote then. Maybe things will get better in the mean time.
I dunno dude, maybe do the work that socialists have been doing, and are even doing for you on this board. Read up
or keep shouting the same shit thinking capitalism is miraculously gonna go against its very nature and somehow solve the problem that it is causing and accelerating by itself every passing month. Maybe we'll pass another infrastructure bill or an accord that stipulates that "maybe probably okay sure why not we COULD reduce our emissions by 2060 a lil bit more but don't push us.".
Like okay, you don't want a socialist revolution or think it's unlikely. What then ? Cuz Capitalism sure as hell isn't gonna provide the solution. It's just gonna parade behind some niceties.
Like even socialism aside, or whatever you want another system to be called, I am in awe at people here who will shout til they're blue in the face against people who dare to think that "maybe this system of production is fundamentally flawed and not suitable for the survival of our species". Y'all will rather embrace total collapse instead of even considering an alternative
According to Era, have kids. Apprently kids bring innovation and Neo will save us.
Oh, that one is easy. Grow the particular market you want to kill until it's bubble bursts because of unaccounted for externalities, fortunately capitalism will do that one all on its own, no effort even required.