we've had several of those across multiple threads.
Report them if you see them. I don't see any on the page where that post was made.
Is the internet still down in Iran? Are people able to have any sort of communication without the government listening in?Of course it's true. My family in Iran was overjoyed at the news, and want the US to do it again.
No, it's not down, and people communicate using encrypted apps there to avoid that problem.Is the internet still down in Iran? Are people able to have any sort of communication without the government listening in?
Chomsky syndrome.It's the same thing that happens in China threads and some of the previous Iran threads. Many posters have legitimate issues with US policy and instead of focusing on that they assume that the countries in opposition of the US must be "good" as the US is "bad". They'll gloss right over the most horrific abuses of civil rights and the worst positions and actions to maintain that simplistic idea.
This is not a reasonable position. The Iranian government has every reason to lie, and does so every day. Canada has no reason to lie, and a history of incredibly honest international relations.
So I'm really against a war with Iran, and I'm against war in general. I've been to one, it fucking sucks.Two things I'm really running out of patience for:
1. The downplaying of Soleimani's crimes. Even if you somehow can warp his orchestration of international terrorisim as anything less than abhorrent, the man just recently brought Iraqi militia fighters into Iran to kill hundreds of protesters fighting for human rights and political freedom. He was a monster. Stop introducing doubt or diminishing his crimes.
2. The downplaying of Iran's level of culpability or fuck up here. No, Iran shooting down a passenger plane that just took off from their own airport is not in any way normal, or understandable, or an expected part of the "fog of war." As far as I'm aware, this has never happened before, and represents an incredibly basic and profound failure of the Iranian government and military. This is that theocratic, murderous, and despotic regime's fault. They are to blame. They deserve all of our disgust and condemnation for these people's' deaths.
I don't think anyone here is advocating for war with Iran, I think people just want them to own up to a situation they are clearly at fault in. I'd personally like to see them offer an official apology to Canada and any other nation that had victims in the crash and pay reparations to the families of the people killed.So I'm really against a war with Iran, and I'm against war in general. I've been to one, it fucking sucks.
Am I really gonna be forced to repeat the arguments of the people who want to go to war with Iran before I have a chance to argue for peace?
I mean help me out here, what is the end goal of insisting on talking about Iran in super harsh terms if not advocating for conflict?
And I'm not even saying you can't argue for conflict with Iran or even war, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to demand pro peace people to make the arguments for you.
This really reminds me of the lead-up to the Iraq war, where it was very hard to argue about the war itself and its goals, because people demanded that you condemned Saddam rape palaces and human shredders. But the argument should have never been Saddam Y/N?, it should have been about whether or not regime change a good idea, it should have been about war.
I hope we're not repeating the same mistakes with Iran.
It's honestly the height of western privilege.
Who here is arguing for war?So I'm really against a war with Iran, and I'm against war in general. I've been to one, it fucking sucks.
Am I really gonna be forced to repeat the arguments of the people who want to go to war with Iran before I have a chance to argue for peace?
I mean help me out here, what is the end goal of insisting on talking about Iran in super harsh terms if not advocating for conflict?
And I'm not even saying you can't argue for conflict with Iran or even war, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to demand pro peace people to make the arguments for you.
This really reminds me of the lead-up to the Iraq war, where it was very hard to argue about the war itself and its goals, because people demanded that you condemned Saddam rape palaces and human shredders. But the argument should have never been Saddam Y/N?, it should have been about whether or not regime change a good idea, it should have been about war.
I hope we're not repeating the same mistakes with Iran.
What is the end game of insisting of talking about Iran in super harsh terms and demanding "disgust and condemnation" if not conflict?Who here is arguing for war?
I'm sorry that you view the suffering of the Iranian people as simply a tool in a rhetorical argument. I do not.
"Super harsh"?What is the end game of insisting of talking about Iran in super harsh terms and demanding "disgust and condemnation" if not conflict?
Seriously, help me here.
And I think we should not pretend that we're bombing them because we're worried about the poor suffering Iranian people. America did nothing but fuck with Iran and I'm pretty damn sure the poor suffering Iranian people don't like getting sanctioned and wouldn't like getting bombed.
In the Iraq war we also pretended we were doing it because of the suffering Iranian people who would greet as liberators. I really really feel like we're replaying the same movie and doing the same mistakes.
You've made this same argument as if our words and posts will somehow change what the governments or militaries do. We don't have that type of power and using "that thinking leads to war" as a way to shut down discussion by a handful of civilians who are mostly powerless to influence any of this seems cheap.What is the end game of insisting of talking about Iran in super harsh terms and demanding "disgust and condemnation" if not conflict?
Seriously, help me here.
And I think we should not pretend that we're bombing them because we're worried about the poor suffering Iranian people. America did nothing but fuck with Iran and I'm pretty damn sure the poor suffering Iranian people don't like getting sanctioned and wouldn't like getting bombed.
In the Iraq war we also pretended we were doing it because of the suffering Iranian people who would greet as liberators. I really really feel like we're replaying the same movie and doing the same mistakes.
I want the US to have peace with Iran. I don't know what you want and I don't want to assume you position, but can I ask you a question straight up?"Super harsh"?
I'm talking about them in accurate terms. That you find the actual situation in Iran inconvenient is really not something I care about.
I love an Iranian woman. I have for almost 15 years. Her family is the most wonderful group of loving and compassionate people I have ever known. They mostly live in Iran, a nation full of such people and families, along with a beautiful culture and a deep fascinating history.
If I were allowed to visit Iran, it would be illegal for my partner and I to leave our home unescorted. And to live under that roof together. And for her to leave her head uncovered. And for us to advocate for democracy, and freedom of expression, or to criticize the government or the mullahs. And we could very well be killed for trying, as thousands have before, by the orders and execution of the man so many are unwilling to call the monster he was.
The theocrats and murderers who run that nation do not deserve your defense, and that suffering does not deserve to be papered over to the benefit of your political arguments.
You don't want war. Fine, I don't want war. I have people I care about on both sides who would die.
But we owe more to the dead and the suffering than our willful ignorance.
I'm just trying to persuade people, that is all, I just want more people to consider peace, and I think the way we talk about our adversaries is a big obstacle in that. I don't think I'm making any big splash here, but I'd like to believe I persuaded at least a few over the years. I know people changed my mind about things here before.You've made this same argument as if our words and posts will somehow change what the governments or militaries do. We don't have that type of power and using "that thinking leads to war" as a way to shut down discussion by a handful of civilians who are mostly powerless to influence any of this seems cheap.
I want peace as well. I just don't think that people expressing anger against the US or Iran on a message board that politicians and military decision makers are likely entirely unaware of, is an impediment to that.I want the US to have peace with Iran. I don't know what you want and I don't want to assume you position, but can I ask you a question straight up?
Do you think arguing for peace with Iran is illegitimate?
Not wrong, I'm not saying I have the only correct view of things, but is it a position that you think I am not even allowed to argue.
I mean you're a mod, if you tell me it isn't I'll stop.
Because if it something that we can at least debate, why must I call them murderous, bloodthirsty and disgusting? I am trying to make the opposite case here.
I'm just trying to persuade people, that is all, I just want more people to consider peace, and I think the way we talk about our adversaries is a big obstacle in that. I don't think I'm making any big splash here, but I'd like to believe I persuaded at least a few over the years. I know people changed my mind about things here before.
You don't need to call them anything, but pretending they are something they aren't or that Soleimani was anything but a oppressive murderous radical is frankly disgusting.I want the US to have peace with Iran. I don't know what you want and I don't want to assume you position, but can I ask you a question straight up?
Do you think arguing for peace with Iran is illegitimate?
Not wrong, I'm not saying I have the only correct view of things, but is it a position that you think I am not even allowed to argue.
I mean you're a mod, if you tell me it isn't I'll stop.
Because if it something that we can at least debate, why must I call them murderous, bloodthirsty and disgusting? I am trying to make the opposite case here.
I'm just trying to persuade people, that is all, I just want more people to consider peace, and I think the way we talk about our adversaries is a big obstacle in that. I don't think I'm making any big splash here, but I'd like to believe I persuaded at least a few over the years. I know people changed my mind about things here before.
NYT also reporting:
Farnaz Fassihi @farnazfassihi
https://twitter.com/farnazfassihi/status/1215841813644431361
BREAKING: #IRAN admits shooting down the Ukrainian Airplane says human error, accidental, the plane turned toward an IRGC military base.#IranPlaneCrash
10:44 PM - Jan 10, 2020
This is absurd. Canada is not the US, and it is especially unlike the US in that it does not have a history of politicians fabricating intel or using it to mislead or manipulate the public.I love how the title has "corroborated by Canada" included when they are a US ally and member of FiveEyes. You might as well say "US releases statement supported by the US". Pointless.
Pleasantly surprised the Iranian government is admitting to it, even though they obviously should have done so immediately. The fact that there willing to admit to this while they killed tens of Iranians is honestly a huge surprise to me as it makes them look beyond bad to their own population.
This is absurd. Canada is not the US, and it is especially unlike the US in that it does not have a history of politicians fabricating intel or using it to mislead or manipulate the public.
Oh my god is this a serious postI love how the title has "corroborated by Canada" included when they are a US ally and member of FiveEyes. You might as well say "US releases statement supported by the US". Pointless.
And Iran admits it. Shame on you.I love how the title has "corroborated by Canada" included when they are a US ally and member of FiveEyes. You might as well say "US releases statement supported by the US". Pointless.
I love how the title has "corroborated by Canada" included when they are a US ally and member of FiveEyes. You might as well say "US releases statement supported by the US". Pointless.
A statement from the Armed Forces General Staff on the crash of the Ukrainian Airlines says:
The noble and revolutionary nation of Islamic Iran;
In the wake of the heartbreaking crash of a Boeing 7 Ukrainian Airlines plane crash early Wednesday morning, in the wake of a missile attack on the US base of criminals and the possible impact of military action on the incident, the Armed Forces General Staff immediately investigated This possibility led to the establishment of an inspection team of technical and operational experts, independent of the State Airlines, to which the results of a round-the-clock review of this delegation are made available to the Honorable Iranian People:
5. Following the threats of the President and the military commanders of the criminal US to target a large number of targets in the territory of the Islamic Republic of Iran in the event of a counter-operation and in view of the unprecedented increase in air traffic in the region, the Islamic Republic's Armed Forces Potential threats were at the highest level of readiness
4. In the hours after the missile strikes, US terrorist forces' warplanes around the country increased, and some reports of air strikes targeting strategic centers in the country were reported to numerous defense units and targets on some radar plates. It has caused more sensitivity in air defense units.
2- In such critical and critical conditions, Flight 3 of the Ukrainian Airlines departs from Imam Khomeini Airport and, while in rotation, is in close proximity to a sensitive military center of the IRGC and is in the height and shape of a hostile aircraft. In these circumstances, the plane was accidentally hit by a human error, which unfortunately results in the martyrdom of dear compatriots and the death of a number of foreign nationals.
4. The Armed Forces General Condolences and Condolences to the Homeless Families and Missing Persons of Other Countries and Apologizes for the Human Error, Ensures Complete Repetition by Carrying Out Major Reforms in Operational Processes at Armed Forces Level Make such errors impossible and immediately report it to the Armed Forces Judicial Organization to deal with the errors committed legally.
2- It was also ordered that the relevant authorities in the IRGC, as soon as possible, present detailed explanations to the people of Sharif.
, the plane was accidentally hit by a human error, which unfortunately results in the martyrdom of dear compatriots and the death of a number of foreign nationals.
Do you mean this exact scenario has never happened before, or that passenger airliners have never been accidentlaly downed by a government before?
Off the top of my head, there's the Korean liner in the 80's that the USSR shot down accidentally, an Iranian plane in the 80's that the US accidentally shot down, and most recently the passenger airliner shot down by Russian backed militias in Ukraine. I know there's more, they're just the ones that come to mind. This isn't "normal", but it's not totally unprescedented either.
what a cold hearted comment.
....At least they finally admitted it, I'll give them points for that.
Now to put measures in place to ensure a similar scenario doesn't happen again.
Don't connect two unrelated things together.what a cold hearted comment.
176 poor people died ffs, their families have lost these loved ones, senselessly. Show some decorum.