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Ukraine International Airlines jetliner was accidentally shot down by Iranian missiles (UP: corroborated by Canada, Iran admits to it)
- Thread starter ElectricBlanketFire
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Report them if you see them. I don't see any on the page where that post was made.
Is the internet still down in Iran? Are people able to have any sort of communication without the government listening in?
No, it's not down, and people communicate using encrypted apps there to avoid that problem.
So I'm really against a war with Iran, and I'm against war in general. I've been to one, it fucking sucks.
Am I really gonna be forced to repeat the arguments of the people who want to go to war with Iran before I have a chance to argue for peace?
I mean help me out here, what is the end goal of insisting on talking about Iran in super harsh terms if not advocating for conflict?
And I'm not even saying you can't argue for conflict with Iran or even war, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to demand pro peace people to make the arguments for you.
This really reminds me of the lead-up to the Iraq war, where it was very hard to argue about the war itself and its goals, because people demanded that you condemned Saddam rape palaces and human shredders. But the argument should have never been Saddam Y/N?, it should have been about whether or not regime change a good idea, it should have been about war.
I hope we're not repeating the same mistakes with Iran.
I don't think anyone here is advocating for war with Iran, I think people just want them to own up to a situation they are clearly at fault in. I'd personally like to see them offer an official apology to Canada and any other nation that had victims in the crash and pay reparations to the families of the people killed.
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It's honestly the height of western privilege.
Who here is arguing for war?
I'm sorry that you view the suffering of the Iranian people as simply a tool in a rhetorical argument. I do not.
What is the end game of insisting of talking about Iran in super harsh terms and demanding "disgust and condemnation" if not conflict?
Seriously, help me here.
And I think we should not pretend that we're bombing them because we're worried about the poor suffering Iranian people. America did nothing but fuck with Iran and I'm pretty damn sure the poor suffering Iranian people don't like getting sanctioned and wouldn't like getting bombed.
In the Iraq war we also pretended we were doing it because of the suffering Iranian people who would greet as liberators. I really really feel like we're replaying the same movie and doing the same mistakes.
"Super harsh"?
I'm talking about them in accurate terms. That you find the actual situation in Iran inconvenient is really not something I care about.
I love an Iranian woman. I have for almost 15 years. Her family is the most wonderful group of loving and compassionate people I have ever known. They mostly live in Iran, a nation full of such people and families, along with a beautiful culture and a deep fascinating history.
If I were allowed to visit Iran, it would be illegal for my partner and I to leave our home unescorted. And to live under that roof together. And for her to leave her head uncovered. And for us to advocate for democracy, and freedom of expression, or to criticize the government or the mullahs. And we could very well be killed for trying, as thousands have before, by the orders and execution of the man so many are unwilling to call the monster he was.
The theocrats and murderers who run that nation do not deserve your defense, and that suffering does not deserve to be papered over to the benefit of your political arguments.
You don't want war. Fine, I don't want war. I have people I care about on both sides who would die.
But we owe more to the dead and the suffering than our willful ignorance.
You've made this same argument as if our words and posts will somehow change what the governments or militaries do. We don't have that type of power and using "that thinking leads to war" as a way to shut down discussion by a handful of civilians who are mostly powerless to influence any of this seems cheap.
I want the US to have peace with Iran. I don't know what you want and I don't want to assume you position, but can I ask you a question straight up?
Do you think arguing for peace with Iran is illegitimate?
Not wrong, I'm not saying I have the only correct view of things, but is it a position that you think I am not even allowed to argue.
I mean you're a mod, if you tell me it isn't I'll stop.
Because if it something that we can at least debate, why must I call them murderous, bloodthirsty and disgusting? I am trying to make the opposite case here.
I'm just trying to persuade people, that is all, I just want more people to consider peace, and I think the way we talk about our adversaries is a big obstacle in that. I don't think I'm making any big splash here, but I'd like to believe I persuaded at least a few over the years. I know people changed my mind about things here before.
I want peace as well. I just don't think that people expressing anger against the US or Iran on a message board that politicians and military decision makers are likely entirely unaware of, is an impediment to that.
You don't need to call them anything, but pretending they are something they aren't or that Soleimani was anything but a oppressive murderous radical is frankly disgusting.
You do a disservice to your argument by infusing it with lies.
No one here is calling for war because of the plane being shot down by accident o_O People are correctly pointing out how incompetent and stupid it was, and how trying to cover up and lie about it is just a continuation of the terrible abuses that people have come to expect from such an awful regime.
I always felt that Iran is somewhat forced to be this way. Like, can anyone name a country that can have their leader overthrown, be surrounded by enemies, have a powerful enemy constantly pressuring it on all fronts and has turned out well?
It seems to be the case that in most cases when power is overthrown that it's radicals that do it. Just putting a piece of shit in charge is basically asking for a revolution in the future and when is it ever good natured progressive minded people that are first to pick up weapons? I guess some would want to say the United States but we still had actual slavery from the start, we wouldn't celebrate today if Iran mirrored 1775 America.
Then they've got outside pressure from Saudi Arabia, Israel, the United States, how can we reasonably expect Iran's people to deal with their regime when they legit have bigger threats at their door?
I think relative peace is the only way for them to have the room in their country to affect the change we all want to see.
I don't see the Ayatollah staying in power as long as he has if the world wasn't so combative from the start. I'm not sure North Korea would still be what it is after so many successions if we dropped our hostile stance with them.
At some point I think we need to realize that us overtly antagonizing and refusing to even deal with these types of regimes is what fuels their continued existence and gives their leaders a strong grip on power.
And I'm not saying I think Iran would be some bastion of equality today had we simply accepted being kicked out in 79, recognized the new government and moved on, they may not have swing back yet, but I also doubt they'd feel they need their own buffer States and by extension it'd be harder to accept Saudi Arabia wanting buffer States fore themselves and Lord knows what those countries in the middle would look like today.
It seems to be the case that in most cases when power is overthrown that it's radicals that do it. Just putting a piece of shit in charge is basically asking for a revolution in the future and when is it ever good natured progressive minded people that are first to pick up weapons? I guess some would want to say the United States but we still had actual slavery from the start, we wouldn't celebrate today if Iran mirrored 1775 America.
Then they've got outside pressure from Saudi Arabia, Israel, the United States, how can we reasonably expect Iran's people to deal with their regime when they legit have bigger threats at their door?
I think relative peace is the only way for them to have the room in their country to affect the change we all want to see.
I don't see the Ayatollah staying in power as long as he has if the world wasn't so combative from the start. I'm not sure North Korea would still be what it is after so many successions if we dropped our hostile stance with them.
At some point I think we need to realize that us overtly antagonizing and refusing to even deal with these types of regimes is what fuels their continued existence and gives their leaders a strong grip on power.
And I'm not saying I think Iran would be some bastion of equality today had we simply accepted being kicked out in 79, recognized the new government and moved on, they may not have swing back yet, but I also doubt they'd feel they need their own buffer States and by extension it'd be harder to accept Saudi Arabia wanting buffer States fore themselves and Lord knows what those countries in the middle would look like today.
Iran admits to the shooting of the plane
AP reporting that Iranian State TV, citing the Iranian military, says the country unintentionally shot the plane down
Finally they admitted it.
I was wondering what was taking so long. It would have been far easier to simply come out with it and apologize...it does nothing to help deescelate tensions and i know they are smart enough to not want to give Trump a reason to beat the war drums even more.
Independent verficiation aside, in the face of multiple countries saying so, its something that never should have happend.
RIP to the Iranians, Canadians and everyone else on the flight. Really fucked.
I was wondering what was taking so long. It would have been far easier to simply come out with it and apologize...it does nothing to help deescelate tensions and i know they are smart enough to not want to give Trump a reason to beat the war drums even more.
Independent verficiation aside, in the face of multiple countries saying so, its something that never should have happend.
RIP to the Iranians, Canadians and everyone else on the flight. Really fucked.
NYT also reporting:
https://twitter.com/farnazfassihi/status/1215841813644431361
BREAKING: #IRAN admits shooting down the Ukrainian Airplane says human error, accidental, the plane turned toward an IRGC military base.#IranPlaneCrash
10:44 PM - Jan 10, 2020
Farnaz Fassihi @farnazfassihihttps://twitter.com/farnazfassihi/status/1215841813644431361
BREAKING: #IRAN admits shooting down the Ukrainian Airplane says human error, accidental, the plane turned toward an IRGC military base.#IranPlaneCrash
10:44 PM - Jan 10, 2020
I'm a PhD student at University of Toronto and it's shocking and really sad reading about all the other students and young people and families who died... Many from Toronto.
A friend I play soccer with on Sundays won't be there this weekend because he now has to attend a funeral for his friend's mother. Another friend who was in my department before going to U Waterloo to do his PhD was working together with someone (also doing her PhD) who was on that plane. Another handful went to my school, at least one I may have TA'd at some point.
Just rough and really sad... I never expected conflict in the Middle East to hit so close to home but here we are.
A friend I play soccer with on Sundays won't be there this weekend because he now has to attend a funeral for his friend's mother. Another friend who was in my department before going to U Waterloo to do his PhD was working together with someone (also doing her PhD) who was on that plane. Another handful went to my school, at least one I may have TA'd at some point.
Just rough and really sad... I never expected conflict in the Middle East to hit so close to home but here we are.
Pleasantly surprised the Iranian government is admitting to it, even though they obviously should have done so immediately. The fact that there willing to admit to this while they killed tens of Iranians is honestly a huge surprise to me as it makes them look beyond bad to their own population.
This is absurd. Canada is not the US, and it is especially unlike the US in that it does not have a history of politicians fabricating intel or using it to mislead or manipulate the public.
In the face of independent verification outside of US intel, it was plainly obvious then since those other countries have no reason to go along with US if they were making up a narrative.
Canada is like the bizzaro world half french good version of America
Statement from Iran's official news agency: https://www.irna.ir/news/83628809/اطلاعیه-ستادکل-نیروهای-مسلح-در-خصوص-سقوط-هواپیمای-مسافربری-خطوط
Google translate, if someone who can read the language can provide a more accurate translation please do so
While it's good that they're finally admitting to it this release is full of shit. There were 0 reports of US airstrikes on targets in Iran and Flightradar24 data suggest the plane never made a turn before being hit as connection to plane was lost just 2 minutes after take-off when the plane was still flying in a straight line https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/...2-crashes-shortly-after-take-off-from-tehran/
Google translate, if someone who can read the language can provide a more accurate translation please do so
While it's good that they're finally admitting to it this release is full of shit. There were 0 reports of US airstrikes on targets in Iran and Flightradar24 data suggest the plane never made a turn before being hit as connection to plane was lost just 2 minutes after take-off when the plane was still flying in a straight line https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/...2-crashes-shortly-after-take-off-from-tehran/
shooting a commercial flight leaving your own airport In the capital no less. That's new
what a cold hearted comment.
176 poor people died ffs, their families have lost these loved ones, senselessly. Show some decorum.
....
They lied about it for days, only admitted it when the proof was incontrovertible, and are even still lying about specific elements of this tragedy.
They don't deserve any "points."
New news, new thread, so please continue discussion here:
Thank you.
Thank you.
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