Pretty much. No one with any power in the region has clean hands.
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Ukraine International Airlines jetliner was accidentally shot down by Iranian missiles (UP: corroborated by Canada, Iran admits to it)
- Thread starter ElectricBlanketFire
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Pretty much. No one with any power in the region has clean hands.
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Do you not believe the story or are you just complaining about the title?
Say it loud. Say it proud. Why the airline/airport didn't ground flights is beyond me. They deserve partial blame for this imo.
It means as much as the point i was making, in that he apart of the force against ISIS. Frankie asked me for sources and i delivered them.
I know the general history of US in the region along with their treatment of the players in the region. But your post also highlights an issue that i would have brought up if you didnt, in that we ally with 'bad guys' who depending on the day we try to kill with zero accountability to any actual consensus, which is dangerous in itself...as shown with the US actions directly creating a vacuum for Al Qaeda and ISIS. Maybe we should stop creating our own enemies to go after by doing globetrotting actions like this.
Its also illuminating because as i've said before, the term bad guy doesnt really seem to matter much at allwhen its people 'on our side'. Saudi arabia and some of our other allies war criminal activities have inflamed tensions in the region and created terrorism more than anyone, and yet they arent on the "this state is a terror state" list and enjoy all the benefits of the first world access while their citizens are left to suffer, and we directly help them in wars of attrition for geopolitcal games like Yemen, causing the greatest humanitarian disaster in modern history. Its a bunch of bullshit and not really defensible on the western side to be honest.
Picking and choosing which states we are supporting for oil and easy money while pointing fingers at others rings hollow.
How about the US flowing out the TW800
Solemani was a walking trash bag. He was the main driving force behind Hizb-Allah in Lebanon which has fucked over Lebanon and the whole middle east in the past 25+ years. HE was shit stain just like his worst enemies the Sunni Saudi fuckboys which have been doing the exact same thing.
That's all true.
and yet we protect the saudis and lavish nothing but praise and weapons deals on them while proclaiming the Iranian regime the ultimate evil who we can just take out with missles with no congressional authority of oversight... I just hate the US picking and choosing the enemies and good guys as if we're the moral standard for anything. its all geopolitical bullshit
Its also fair to remember that the US claims that the attack was started because an assault on the embassy, but we've been paiting Iran into a corner ever since we intentionally walked away from the nuclear deal and imposed harsh sanctions on their people even though they were trying to follow it. Its hard to not see them pull desperate plays when its clear the US doesnt want actual peace but destroying the Iran goverment for the second time so they can gain the oil reserves there
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I'm from Israel, and we never ground civilian flights when we go and bomb the Palestinians, Syria, Lebanon or any other country.
The US doesn't do it either when they bomb in Iraq or Afghanistan either. I don't know that it's standard procedure anywhere really, Israel had civilian airplane traffic coming and going even during full on wars.
And in any case, the issue here is AA, and as long as the US is in the region Iran is just gonna have their AA on high alert, especially after the Soleimani assassination. And you can't expect Iran to just shut all air travel until the US decide it's time to leave.
I can expect them to shut it off when they're expecting an air raid and have everything at full alert. Like, one day of stopped air traffic isn't much to ask for and would have definitely prevented this. Not expecting them to stop air travel indefinitely.
The US droned Soleimani like 50 meters from a civilian international airport and didn't stop air flights. As far as I know, this is not something anyone really does.
I don't know, maybe we should have a procedure for those things, but I see a lot of people talking like Iran broke some sort of established protocol here and I'm really not sure where people are getting it.
I personally think the solution is to just not have those pointless wars by the way, but that's me.
European countries did as well but they're allies to the US so I guess that doesn't count either? There's a damn video recording that seems real that shows the shootdown, but can't trust that either. So in your mind it's better to trust the Iranian government that bulldozed the area, removed all debris and basically didn't do anything to assure a viable investigation.
No, it's been verified by the NYT, and Bellingcat have geolocated it's position.
Seen her mentioned on a Reddit astro turfing forum as a fake Iranian/Hezbollah propaganda account, but I haven't had time to actually put much research into it. The only person with that name of any note I've come across is a Facebook executive.
Verified by NYT and the AP. Exact location of the video identified, think it might have been posted somewhere in this thread.
We don't know official protocol, I think most are just saying it's stupid to let commercial flights take off like normal when you're launching missles from the ground nearby.
I don't know what U.S. policy is on our domestic airports as there's never been anything like this on our country. Civilian aircraft aren't allowed over many military sites by default, though.
Seems pretty damning then. I know Iran is denying any missile hit the aircraft but at this point, assuming the evidence is trustworthy, we don't really need to rely on word of mouth of government agencies when there's video evidence of a missile strike. Is there any reason to doubt a missile was the cause anymore?
These are all Blue on Blue incidents and are not civilian aircraft shootdowns. Blue on blue incidents are usually the result of friendlies trying to keep troop locations secret to help deceive the enemy and/or miscoordination.
But this is a civilian airliner who's presence and widely known and available (and usually declared by transponder and ATC) .
If you look at all civilian airliner shootdowns that have happened they all usually involve some sort of airspace incursion. Whats astonishing is that this aircraft remained in the same airspace it took off from. Iran by all rights should have known the plane was there, hell, they should have been monitoring their own ATC transmissions or as others have mentioned grounded all their planes. Not to mention the plane was flying AWAY from you so it didn't pose any sort of threat.
Its just an especially egregious error even when compared to other similar incidents.
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I understand what you're saying, I am just unsure what you're basing it on, because again, I grew up in a country where missiles fly all the time and I am not aware of any sort of protocol that automatically shut down domestic air travel when you fire a rocket at your neighboring country. Maybe everyone is just stupid though.
Also, do we even know where the missiles Iran fired at the US based in Irae were launched from? Iran is a big country.
Iran will be revealing their own conclusions tomorrow https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-airliner-on-saturday-fars-news-idUSKBN1Z928E
Yeah, no reason to doubt it beyond conspiracy theories from an instagram model.
I mean, I don't think you'll find many people on this site that actually approve of Soleimani getting bombed in an airport.
... And pretty much 99% of the population of this site.
Two things I'm really running out of patience for:
1. The downplaying of Soleimani's crimes. Even if you somehow can warp his orchestration of international terrorisim as anything less than abhorrent, the man just recently brought Iraqi militia fighters into Iran to kill hundreds of protesters fighting for human rights and political freedom. He was a monster. Stop introducing doubt or diminishing his crimes.
2. The downplaying of Iran's level of culpability or fuck up here. No, Iran shooting down a passenger plane that just took off from their own airport is not in any way normal, or understandable, or an expected part of the "fog of war." As far as I'm aware, this has never happened before, and represents an incredibly basic and profound failure of the Iranian government and military. This is that theocratic, murderous, and despotic regime's fault. They are to blame. They deserve all of our disgust and condemnation for these people's' deaths.
1. The downplaying of Soleimani's crimes. Even if you somehow can warp his orchestration of international terrorisim as anything less than abhorrent, the man just recently brought Iraqi militia fighters into Iran to kill hundreds of protesters fighting for human rights and political freedom. He was a monster. Stop introducing doubt or diminishing his crimes.
2. The downplaying of Iran's level of culpability or fuck up here. No, Iran shooting down a passenger plane that just took off from their own airport is not in any way normal, or understandable, or an expected part of the "fog of war." As far as I'm aware, this has never happened before, and represents an incredibly basic and profound failure of the Iranian government and military. This is that theocratic, murderous, and despotic regime's fault. They are to blame. They deserve all of our disgust and condemnation for these people's' deaths.
You have to turn a blind eye to so much to honestly say they're just as likely to be innocent as they are guilty with regards to having innocent people get caught up in their actions. All of their collateral damage in Syria is just ancient history I guess. Ridiculous.
Not to mention that there's a video of a missile hitting the plane that has been geolocated to the right area. But there sure are a ton of poster who would rather trust the Iranian government who bulldozed the site and disposed of evidence to show how skeptical they are of Western intelligence agencies.
This is not a reasonable position. The Iranian government has every reason to lie, and does so every day. Canada has no reason to lie, and a history of incredibly honest international relations.
There's also his role in massacring Iranian anti-regime protesters. Did everybody just forget about the 1000+ Iranians murdered as reprisal?
France Uses Rafeles now I believe, it would have been Mirages back in the day.
It's ridiculous. You can be against Trump's decision and think it was a reckless escalation without trying to clean Soleimani's record. Arguing that he was good because he fought ISIS when he did so many other horrific things is a bit like saying that Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't that bad since he recycled. In real life no one is 100% good or evil. Being on the right side of a single conflict doesn't make Soleimani a good person.
Honestly, many people don't care unless its some how tied to the US through Trump. There was a thread about it a couple of weeks ago, had around 10 posts in it. The concern for the people of the country is only spoken of if Trump has a hand in some way (sanctions etc)
He was one of the, if not the figure most responsible for keeping in power a government that hangs people for being gay.
What the fuck is happening in this thread.
It's the same thing that happens in China threads and some of the previous Iran threads. Many posters have legitimate issues with US policy and instead of focusing on that they assume that the countries in opposition of the US must be "good" as the US is "bad". They'll gloss right over the most horrific abuses of civil rights and the worst positions and actions to maintain that simplistic idea.
I heard on the night of his death that some Iranians took to the streets in celebration yelling death to the dictator. Now, I heard this third hand and haven't been able to confirm through a legitimate source. I would like to know if it's true.
1) Leftists love condemning the US for its foreign policy misadventures. Which is generally a positive, because the US has fucked up a lot in its foreign policy, and done some horrible things and caused no shortage of suffering.
2) Iran goes out of its way to paint itself as an underdog and not a brutal neocolonialist power funding terroristic proxy militias in other, smaller countries.
3) People generally have a tendency to reduce complex situations to black and white in order to make them easy to understand. What's going on in the Middle East is not black and white, but on social media or forums like these people will try to force it to be.
Forgive me for being skeptical at Iran completing an air crash investigation in the span of a few days when normal ones take months if not years.
I don't see a defense of the decision to escalate things significantly due to his assassination. I do see pushback against the idea that "since he was fighting ISIS he must have been pretty decent afterall" which is bullshit.
Eh, if they shot it down and plan on admitting it, having their story straight, etc, etc, then that's kinda all the investigation needed, anything past that is just for completionist sake.
Course if they're not admitting it and are going to say something else, then yes, I don't believe you can really come out a few days later and say you've solved it
Do you mean this exact scenario has never happened before, or that passenger airliners have never been accidentlaly downed by a government before?
Off the top of my head, there's the Korean liner in the 80's that the USSR shot down accidentally, an Iranian plane in the 80's that the US accidentally shot down, and most recently the passenger airliner shot down by Russian backed militias in Ukraine. I know there's more, they're just the ones that come to mind. This isn't "normal", but it's not totally unprescedented either.
Of course it's true. My family in Iran was overjoyed at the news, and want the US to do it again.
No one is doing that.
It sounds straightforward in theory, but the amount of channels and people that warning would have to go through would significantly increase the odds of the missile attack leaking out. Which is exactly the opposite thing you want happening when launching missiles at another country's bases, that exist on ANOTHER country's soil.
This scenario. A country shooting down a passenger plane after it took of from their own airport.
But they literally warned the countries in question before launching the missiles.
The prime minister received a verbal learning of the attacks as they were occurring...
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