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Deleted member 888

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Video interview here

Campaigners say they want Birmingham LGBT teaching abolished

Five schools in Birmingham have stopped teaching about LGBT rights following complaints by parents.

Amir Ahmed, a lead campaigner for the parents, told Sima Kotecha: "Morally, we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have."

The No Outsiders project was set up to educate children to accept differences in society.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/educa...-they-want-birmingham-lgbt-teaching-abolished

The polling of recent years back these views on LGBT

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https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default...-on-muslims-in-great-britain-ipsos-mori_0.pdf

However, when asked to what extent they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher, compared with 14% of the general population.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...se-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
 

RNGesus

Banned
Aug 3, 2018
272
User Banned (Permanent): Racism: anti-Muslim bigotry, previous severe infraction
Aren't the exact people complaining about terrible this is the same people who wanted all these Muslims to come to the west in the first place? What did you think was going to happen, they would become progressive liberals the second they tasted "freedom"?
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,558
The left cares about Islam because of the intense amount of Islamophobia that is present in our society coupled with the horrible racism. It is not an endorsement of these kind of beliefs. Christianity doesnt need protection because it's the majority and is not in any way discriminated against.


As for these parents, we can say this is only a small number but those polls show a shocking number of UK muslims are not ok with homosexuality at all. We should not downplay how difficult it is going to be to convince some of these people when it us not just a few bad eggs
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
I have been raised Muslim, I am not myself, but I was raised with a very open mind. I have unique parents, very rare in the Islam world.

At some point a discussion has to be made. Freedom of religion is something, but I can easily tell you that at least for the next generation the Muslim world will not bulge in certain topics, the majority of them at least.

There are open minded Muslims, but they are very few and they do not speak of course, fearing to be pariah.

At some point a discussion will have to be made, either you protect LGBTQ community and carry on with the just "normalisation" of gay topic or you protect religious freedom.

Unfortunately In the Quran it clearly says that It is a sin and it's not really open for interpretation.

I wish more muslims were like my parents, that even though they still think it's a sin they do not judge knowing that everybody has sins on its own and it's better " to be gay than to kill" (their words of course)

THey have gay friends now and they are fine with me being bisex, but it's a lot lot lot to ask to the Muslim community as whole.

I hope I made my self clear and I did not offend anybody.


Oh make no mistake, we are all United here in the belief that these parents and any who stand by them can go fuck themselves to hell and back.

No religious belief trump's the right of law or human rights. Not ever.

But the now banned user was blowing a proverbial dog-whistle. No one here had defended Islam before his post, and given his post history in regards to India/Pakistan I very much doubt he had the best intentions for genuine discussion.

I think I'm not too far off in saying that the poster and his ilk are trying to say that for example; our sympathy with Muslim civilians in warzones means we support all extreme Islamic beliefs and principles. Which is obviously BS.
 

Deleted member 888

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The left cares about Islam because of the intense amount of Islamophobia that is present in our society coupled with the horrible racism. It is not an endorsement of these kind of beliefs. Christianity doesnt need protection because it's the majority and is not in any way discriminated against.


As for these parents, we can say this is only a small number but those polls show a shocking number of UK muslims are not ok with homosexuality at all. We should not downplay how difficult it is going to be to convince some of these people when it us not just a few bad eggs

The greater issue is with the MPs and powers that be not knowing whether to stick or twist prioritising the minorities feelings or prioritising a secular attitude which clashes with the said minority.

So you end up even getting the left, represented by fucking Labour MPs, trying to do a both sides or tolerating intolerance.

We don't make progress with tolerating intolerance because "freedom of religion". Schools should not be pulling a curriculum in order to cave into mob behaviour. Five schools have now caved. Just as the Government/MPs shouldn't be tapdancing around attempting not to upset further.

This is just going to escalate if the local council and by extension the Government, don't sort it out. There's already vandalism been aimed at mosques in the area that these protestors attend and teachers harassed.
 

Assenzio

Alt account
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Mar 18, 2019
775
Oh make no mistake, we are all United here in the belief that these parents and any who stand by them can go fuck themselves to hell and back.

Non-religious belief trump's the right of law or human rights. Not ever.

But the now banned user was blowing a proverbial dog-whistle. No one here had defended Islam before his post, and given his post history in regards to India/Pakistan I very much doubt he had the best intentions for genuine discussion.

I think I'm not too far off in saying that the poster and his ilk are trying to say that for example; our sympathy with Muslim civilians in warzones means we support all extreme Islamic beliefs and principles. Which is obviously BS.
I genuinely wish to see this as a discussion.

What do you propose? It's not easy to have freedom of creed and civil rights together.

Democracy will allow these people ( And i mean homophobes) to prevail with the sheer use of belief as shield.

What's the solution here? I want freedom of belief but also basic civil rights . It's not easy
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
Aren't the exact people complaining about terrible this is the same people who wanted all these Muslims to come to the west in the first place? What did you think was going to happen, they would become progressive liberals the second they tasted "freedom"?

Sure, let's see what Christian attitudes towards this were like a generation or two ago. Heck, in the US Evengelicals today still have worse attitudes towards the acceptance of LGBT individuals that Muslim citizens and I wouldn't be shocked. People don't expect people from different cultural backgrounds to instantly become progressive; at the same time they don't expect social institutions to bend a knee to conservative/right wing anti-science bullshit regardless of the colour of the people preaching it.
 

Deleted member 888

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Sure, let's see what Christian attitudes towards this were like a generation or two ago. Heck, in the US Evengelicals today still have worse attitudes towards the acceptance of LGBT individuals that Muslim citizens and I wouldn't be shocked. People don't expect people from different cultural backgrounds to instantly become progressive; at the same time they don't expect social institutions to bend a knee to conservative/right wing anti-science bullshit regardless of the colour of the people preaching it.

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http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitudes-towards-gay-rights/

A lot of the UK is now Christian by culture, not Christian by religion. Often when people decouple themselves from religion their attitudes on social issues get much better.

For the first time, more than half the population say they have no religion, and the generation gap on religious affiliation is widening, according to the British Social Attitudes survey.

Only 3% of adults under 24 describe themselves as Anglican – fewer than the 5% who identify as Catholic. Almost three out of four 18- to 24-year-olds say they have no religion, a rise of nine percentage points since 2015.

Among the next age group, 25-34, only 5% identify as Anglicans and 9% say they are Catholic. The presence in the UK of young European workers may be a factor in the relatively high proportion of young Catholics.

Among all adults in Britain, only 15% consider themselves to be Anglican, compared with almost one in three at the turn of the century, according to BSA data. Nine percent overall identify as Catholics, 17% as "other Christian" and 6% say they belong to non-Christian religions.

More generally, 53% of all adults describe themselves as having no religious affiliation, up from 48% in 2015. The latest figure is the highest since the BSA survey began tracking religious affiliation in 1983, when 31% said they had no religion.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-no-religion-british-social-attitudes-survey

The issue with dogmatic/conservative religious people is their parents have all the answers, their book of choice has all the answers or their Imam/Preacher has all the answers. If science, reason or say, teachers in a School come along, they're outside of the religion and don't have the answers.

Couple that with the Koran supposedly being the exact/perfect word of God, and Islam is even "harder" than Christianity/Catholicism to get at. Christianity has a book that isn't said to be the word of God (and its been rewritten/changed), and Catholicism largely has the Pope, who still spouts bullshit, but occasionally says something less inflammatory than "heretics and the gays should be dealt with".
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
I genuinely wish to see this as a discussion.

What do you propose? It's not easy to have freedom of creed and civil rights together.

Democracy will allow these people ( And i mean homophobes) to prevail with the sheer use of belief as shield.

What's the solution here? I want freedom of belief but also basic civil rights . It's not easy

Same as Christianity. If they don't like something they keep their mouths shut and deal with it. And with each generation their beliefs will inevitably become more and more diluted to the point of harmlessness.
 

Deleted member 18360

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Same as Christianity. If they don't like something they keep their mouths shut and deal with it. And with each generation their beliefs will inevitably become more and more diluted to the point of harmlessness.

Exactly. All you have to do is establish a strong curriculum in civics, which is an idea that began pretty much with modern democracy way back during the enlightenment.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
SMSBs2l.png


http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitudes-towards-gay-rights/

A lot of the UK is now Christian by culture, not Christian by religion. Often when people decouple themselves from religion their attitudes on social issues get much better.







https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-no-religion-british-social-attitudes-survey

The issue with dogmatic/conservative religious people is their parents have all the answers, their book of choice has all the answers or their Imam/Preacher has all the answers. If science, reason or say, teachers in a School come along, they're outside of the religion and don't have the answers.

Couple that with the Koran supposedly being the exact/perfect word of God, and Islam is even "harder" than Christianity/Catholicism to get at. Christianity has a book that isn't said to be the word of God (and its been rewritten/changed), and Catholicism largely has the Pope, who still spouts bullshit, but occasionally says something less inflammatory than "heretics and the gays should be dealt with".


Oh, I'm familiar with the rise of secularisation and how it generally only benefits society. That was part of why I mentioned the changes over the last generation. It's why I think the biggest threat is bending education to the will of the religious. Also I'd point to stories of what gay Muslim's think of the polls you posted.

I think the only real hurdle that could halt progress beyond what I've mentioned is the rise of the right and huge amount of accepted islamophibia in the country creating a us/them situation. Making Muslim individuals (even if they're just culturally Muslim) more likely to find safety/acceptance in their own communities and not integrate with others; especially those in working class households.
 

Deleted member 888

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Exactly. All you have to do is establish a strong curriculum in civics, which is an idea that began pretty much with modern democracy way back during the enlightenment.

But the question that may not be answered till after our time on this earth is can Islam have an enlightenment period in the same way/effect Christianity did? Many will tell you no because of what I said above, the Koran is seen as the perfect unalterable word of God. Whereas the Bible received the New Testament which at least went a way to curbing some of the sociopathic/psychopathic death cult material of the Old Testament. Over generations getting Christianity further away from the Old Testament played its part in curbing radicalization.

Even although Islam is the largest religion in the world, there are very few examples of countries you can look to where it's the majority religion and claim "this seems far more cultural Muslims and social views in favour of progressivism fair outweigh Conservatism."

Even America is trending positively, as still being one of the most Conservative religious Western countries

More than two-thirds of Americans say they support same-sex marriage, according to a new Gallup poll published Wednesday.

With 67% of Americans expressing their approval, it marks the highest level of support that the research firm has recorded in the more than 20 years it has been querying Americans on the issue. Gallup said it has tallied 3 percentage point increases in support for each of its last three national surveys on the topic.

When Gallup first queried Americans on the issue in 1996, 27% said they supported gay marriage.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/05/23/same-sex-marriage-poll-americans/638587002/

Then the question has to be asked how many Muslims will effectively "leave" the religion to become cultural Muslims? Cultural Christians played a huge role in helping dilute the radicals because while they may have held onto calling themselves Christians because "I was born here" or "My parents said I'm Christian", their social views were more in-line with a secular attitude and they challenged their parents/friends/family. Because they rejected all the anti-scientific bullshit their parents/pastors/preachers told them. But maybe they still went to Church, or spoke openly about religion to their family/friends who were more devout Christians.

Many Muslims who do try to leave Islam or possibly become "cultural Muslims" have deep-seated consequences taught by the Koran of what is the way to respond to a leaver/rejecter of the faith. All you need to do is look at all the support networks for Muslims who leave Islam and how much of a challenge it is staying public and/or still having a connection to your family.

There's a lot of walls within Islam that are going to potentially provide unique challenges from Christianity and even Catholicism. As I said with the Catholics, who tend to still poll and trend more Conservative than the non-Catholic Christians, the Pope sometimes says something fairly progressive. While the Pope is a joke overall, less radical Pope's than what may have existed 50~100 years ago will play their part in helping nudge some Catholics away from the nonsense. Though that whole institution is trash with forced celibacy, anti-sex messaging (no condoms/sex before marriage), anti-abortion and homosexuality still gets blasted fairly often by Catholics. Not to mention the paedophilia coverups.

When we look at Islam I think, well, is it going to get a reformation of the text? Very unlikely. Does it have one central speaker who may in time keep nudging away from being a lunatic, like a Pope? No. So, cultural Muslims maybe helping dilute the insanity, probably our best bet, but the challenges they face right now are incredibly severe and speaking out and openly is one hell of a risk for them.
 
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jeelybeans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,948
Man, I much prefer the US where Muslims caucus with the democrats and are moderating on these issues. I can't imagine a US Muslim saying that "kids don't need to learn about human rights" lol.
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,354
How hard is it to recognize the fact that you can protect a persecuted group of people without automatically agreeing with unrelated regressive beliefs?
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,999
Not sure if posted already or if anyone would be interested in seeing this video, but I though it would be relevant to the thread subject.


oh my lord I wanted to punch that woman so many times during that video.

I can't stand homophobes, even less when they don't even understand how homophobic they are being.
 
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Mr.Arrow

Member
Dec 6, 2018
235
Protesting will only make them isolated from the community.... the parents are not doing any favours with the already rising anti-muslim sentiment in the UK.

You dont have to endorse LGBT, but you shouldn't force the school to drop its teachings just because you find it "incompatible". Honestly, these parents should wake up and realize they are making the situation worst with their archaic beliefs.
 

Deleted member 888

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So this has still been relentless. So much so the Schools and staff don't know what to do

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The head at a Birmingham primary school has called for the Government to reject attempts to dilute messages of equality around LGBT issues - or risk a "bleak future."

Anderton Park Primary School in Moseley has been the subject of daily protests from some parents over the equality lessons.

Headteacher Sarah Hewitt-Clarkson has now called for action from the Government - and revealed the strain her staff have been under.

She said: "If someone is going to tell us that there are elements of the equality agenda that we just can't talk about, then I think we have a constitutional crisis. It is a terrifying prospect.

"This is the thin end of the wedge.

"If we succumb to what parents demand on this particular issue, and agree not to mention LGBT equality to young children, what do we say if there is a far right parents' group demanding we stop saying religions are equal, or black people are equal to white people? Where does it end?"

"But for 10 minutes at the end of the day we feel a bit under siege - we have to send some of the children out through different exits for example. It is very unpleasant."

But the campaign has failed to dent her commitment to equality rights, nor to persuade her that the school is doing anything wrong or inappropriate.

"It has been difficult but this really matters," she said.

"People seem to think we are actively promoting being gay. It is simply not true. That is like saying we are promoting being black, or being disabled - also protected characteristics under the Equality Act.

"About as much as we say to younger children is that some children have two daddies or two mummies. It is totally age appropriate. We would no more talk about homosexual sex as heterosexual sex - it is nonsense."

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/head-lgbt-protest-school-urges-16044974

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Parents staged a demonstration against the controversial 'No Outsiders' curriculum programme at Anderton Park Primary School yesterday.

They handed out leaflets that declared 'We DO NOT believe in homosexuality. Parents do NOT want their children's belief changed.'

Others read, 'This programme promotes a whole-school gay ethos' and 'You can't be gay and Muslim'.

More than 80 per cent of the pupils at Anderton primary are Muslim.

It is the second school to be hit with protests after the LGBT rights classes were paused at nearby Parkfield Community School when parents claimed the classes were age inappropriate and undermined them.

Parents are holding daily demonstrations outside the school gates.

https://www./news/article-6854329/D...outside-second-Birmingham-primary-school.html

Second link is DailyFail, but they're the source with that letter above.

This is only going to keep escalating and I'm not entirely sure how the council sorts this out.

How hard is it to recognize the fact that you can protect a persecuted group of people without automatically agreeing with unrelated regressive beliefs?

Religious infused teachings and beliefs are not "unrelated regressive beliefs". You doing mental gymnastics to try and distance how interwrapped homophobia is with religion is precisely one of the issues that cause people to tip-toe around problems like this not to offend or feel they are being unfair to a religious group.

Look at the polls and data I posted in this topic and come back and tell me teachings from the Koran/Islam are "unrelated" to how homophobia is viewed if certain parts of the Koran are taken literally.

The only way Christians and Catholics, over generations, get dereadicalised from the utter shit in their Holy Books/teachings is speaking honestly about them.

In this topic we literally have our next generation of homophobic kids growing up in front of us, being taught now to fear and hate LGBT.
 
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Deleted member 44129

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Not sure if posted already or if anyone would be interested in seeing this video, but I though it would be relevant to the thread subject.

Good Morning Britain is a terrible influence in the UK. Thanks to Piers Morgan, it's transparently pushes formerly fringe right-wing voices under the guise of "both sides" and "let's hear them out"
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,271
This is only going to keep escalating and I'm not entirely sure how the council sorts this out.
.

They should at the very least stop giving in and make these lessons mandatory, if they can't even do that can they charge the parents taking their children out of school of truancy?

Frankly if this country had any sense the people leading this protest would be charged with hate speech because, well, it is.
 

Deleted member 888

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They should at the very least stop giving in and make these lessons mandatory, if they can't even do that can they charge the parents taking their children out of school of truancy?

Frankly if this country had any sense the people leading this protest would be charged with hate speech because, well, it is.

The protestors are being very coy not to use inflammatory language on their signs and playing the angle of "religious freedom". Saying something is inherently against their belief system and using the states own system against it where religion is a protected characteristic too.

So, you get that trap of if any sort of state intervention was used they'd be right to saying "Our religious freedoms are being persecuted".

This is why religion will always be a thorn in the side of secularism if a society props up religious belief on the same parity as human rights/immutable characteristics. When it isn't. It factually isn't. Religion is a belief system, it's a choice. Immutable characteristic are not a choice.

You can't stop being gay. You can stop being a Muslim.
 

Plum

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May 31, 2018
17,271
Good Morning Britain is a terrible influence in the UK. Thanks to Piers Morgan, it's transparently pushes formerly fringe right-wing voices under the guise of "both sides" and "let's hear them out"

The BBC's a 'both sides' shithole as well. Piers Morgan is a high-grade cunt but at least it's obvious that he's a cunt, whereas on the BBC you have questions like:

"Is it morally right to teach children about LGBT relationships?"

Being asked at Question Time as if it isn't an absolutely disgusting question that wouldn't be asked about literally any other minority.

The media in this country is filth of the highest regard.

The protestors are being very coy not to use inflammatory language on their signs and playing the angle of "religious freedom". Saying something is inherently against their belief system and using the states own system against it where religion is a protected characteristic too.

So, you get that trap of if any sort of state intervention was used they'd be right to saying "Our religious freedoms are being persecuted".

Ugh. This is so frustrating.

What's stopping the Council/Government from making the lessons mandatory and then charging parents with truancy if they take their children out of education because of it? Aside from the obvious "we're cowards" reason, of course.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
The BBC's a 'both sides' shithole as well. Piers Morgan is a high-grade cunt but at least it's obvious that he's a cunt, whereas on the BBC you have questions like:

"Is it morally right to teach children about LGBT relationships?"

Being asked at Question Time as if it isn't an absolutely disgusting question that wouldn't be asked about literally any other minority.

The media in this country is filth of the highest regard.



Ugh. This is so frustrating.

What's stopping the Council/Government from making the lessons mandatory and then charging parents with truancy if they take their children out of education because of it? Aside from the obvious "we're cowards" reason, of course.

Yeah the BBC ain't shit now, it's a genuine disgrace. It really is.
 

Deleted member 888

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The BBC's a 'both sides' shithole as well. Piers Morgan is a high-grade cunt but at least it's obvious that he's a cunt, whereas on the BBC you have questions like:

"Is it morally right to teach children about LGBT relationships?"

Being asked at Question Time as if it isn't an absolutely disgusting question that wouldn't be asked about literally any other minority.

The media in this country is filth of the highest regard.

Ugh. This is so frustrating.

What's stopping the Council/Government from making the lessons mandatory and then charging parents with truancy if they take their children out of education because of it? Aside from the obvious "we're cowards" reason, of course.

Well, the rise in faith schools attempts to intervene and skirt around Government curriculum or do the minimum necessary. I believe all faith schools should be defunded from tax-payer funding. I've never said they need to be completely abolished, but if parents/communities want them, they can pay for them themselves.

State-funded schools should teach about all religions in religious studies, but more importantly, when it comes to science/biology, they teach fact. Stop caring about the feelings of bigots. Schools and educators are there to teach facts, end of. In social and sex studies, that means teaching the reality of the world and what science/psychology has to say about humanity and why we are how we are.

That might push some radical parents to home school or seek a faith school, but that's just sadly the amount of damage a parent can legally do to a child when having ownership over a lot of decision making until the child is an adult. Social services can sometimes intervene, but homeschooling is legal.

Unless you march forward teaching a society they can be progressive and religious, you lose the battle, every single time, to Conservative bigots.
 

Plum

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May 31, 2018
17,271
Well, the rise in faith schools attempts to intervene and skirt around Government curriculum or do the minimum necessary. I believe all faith schools should be defunded from tax-payer funding. I've never said they need to be completely abolished, but if parents/communities want them, they can pay for them themselves.

State-funded schools should teach about all religions in religious studies, but more importantly, when it comes to science/biology, they teach fact. Stop caring about the feelings of bigots. Schools and educators are there to teach facts, end of. In social and sex studies, that means teaching the reality of the world and what science/psychology has to say about humanity and why we are how we are.

That might push some radical parents to home school or seek a faith school, but that's just sadly the amount of damage a parent can legally do to a child when having ownership over a lot of decision making until the child is an adult. Social services can sometimes intervene, but homeschooling is legal.

Unless you march forward teaching a society they can be progressive and religious, you lose the battle, every single time, to Conservative bigots.

So nothing will happen, then? The Tories aren't going to push through that legislation because they're the Tories and Labour won't push it through because they're cowards who would sell their own grandma if it meant appeasing their constituents.

I guess all members of the LGBT community can do is avoid areas like the ones in Birmingham. This kind of rhetoric and actions will only lead to violence, and it's not worth taking that chance.
 

Deleted member 888

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So nothing will happen, then? The Tories aren't going to push through that legislation because they're the Tories and Labour won't push it through because they're cowards who would sell their own grandma if it meant appeasing their constituents.

I guess all members of the LGBT community can do is avoid areas like the ones in Birmingham. This kind of rhetoric and actions will only lead to violence, and it's not worth taking that chance.

I'm not implying nothing will happen, but at this point it seems like it's a stick moment rather than twist. Just let it play out and hope the protestors go away.

But what the Government and council need to remember is this isn't a Resetera boycott for a videogame, that will get ignored the second the 9 and 10/10's roll in. This is people who have deeply held beliefs that have been whipped into a frenzy, by each other, and will now dig their feet in till they get their way. The Schools are already caving by pulling the lessons/material. The teachers are already going to the media and talking about being scared or worrying, the protestors can see/read this. They're "winning".

Then you've got Labour MPs in the area who care more about getting re-elected, so they care more about doing "both sides" because it's a high majority Muslim area. There is no both sides here, as I said above, immutable characteristics and human rights should always rank slightly higher than religious belief. Protect religious freedoms, yes, but sorry, they don't rank higher than things people don't get to choose.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Watching the emotional rollercoaster in the comments on right-wing media about this is delightful. Brown people vs. LGBT people - they know they should be angry about this but they don't want to commit to siding with one or the other.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
The protestors are being very coy not to use inflammatory language on their signs and playing the angle of "religious freedom". Saying something is inherently against their belief system and using the states own system against it where religion is a protected characteristic too.

So, you get that trap of if any sort of state intervention was used they'd be right to saying "Our religious freedoms are being persecuted".

I actually got into a debate/argument with someone who is part of some Islamic organisation in Birmingham and yeah that is the same line he tried to sell me. I obviously didn't buy it and he seemed somewhat receptive to the idea that at a time when the government is controlled by a party of rabid Islamophobes and the BBC is happy to roll out white supremacists the night of a massacre in a mosque, then worrying about schools saying "gay people exist" might be a tad counterproductive.*

I doubt any of it sticks but fuck, I did my part.

*It was a bit stronger than that but on my phone and can't be arsed typing out an essay on this shitty fucking keyboard
 

Deleted member 888

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I actually got into a debate/argument with someone who is part of some Islamic organisation in Birmingham and yeah that is the same line he tried to sell me. I obviously didn't buy it and he seemed somewhat receptive to the idea that at a time when the government is controlled by a party of rabid Islamophobes and the BBC is happy to roll out white supremacists the night of a massacre in a mosque, then worrying about schools saying "gay people exist" might be a tad counterproductive.*

I doubt any of it sticks but fuck, I did my part.

*It was a bit stronger than that but on my phone and can't be arsed typing out an essay on this shitty fucking keyboard

The vast majority of decent people don't like the fact that a lot of genuinely bigotted Muslim hating people are all over situations like this to use it as proof of their "white genocide" or whatever it is.

But the thing is, the people involved in this need to begin to understand they don't help themselves with garnering sympathy for any of their legitimate concerns because behaving in this way pushes them away from the progressive people who could stand with them on other issues.

The schools have been quite clear in their stance, there is no gay agenda here or pushing of kids to see really sexually explicit content at a young age. It's basic teaching of how society is to help young minds begin not to fear what they might soon see in day to day life (same sex parents, or kids that might be acting very feminine/masculine compared to their counterparts). The later not always an indicator of being gay, but a lot of bullying can start in school towards feminine guys or masculine girls irrespective of if they are gay or not.

It just so happens sometimes they are, which usually increases the bullying further if parents or other sources have been teaching young minds being gay is immoral.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
The vast majority of decent people don't like the fact that a lot of genuinely bigotted Muslim hating people are all over situations like this to use it as proof of their "white genocide" or whatever it is.

But the thing is, the people involved in this need to begin to understand they don't help themselves with garnering sympathy for any of their legitimate concerns because behaving in this way pushes them away from the progressive people who could stand with them on other issues.

Yeah that's the point I kept trying to hammer home. Now this dude was homophobic, no two ways about it, but I tried to frame it as "You're just making it easy for the far right to say you are incompatible with British culture" because that was the best way to try and get it into his head.

I don't think it changed his mind but at least there were other younger people there who heard it and realised that yeah, the LGBT community is not an enemy and that they need to be doing what they can to get progressives onside.
 

Plum

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I like how the parents also expect the kids to never meet a queer person in their whole lives.

Considering how isolated they make themselves this is definitely a possibility. An 80% Muslim community isn't going to get many openly-gay people visiting it/living it, and with declarations such as "you can't be gay and Muslim" the gay people in that community are likely going to stay closeted throughout their entire life (of course, that's if nothing else happens to them).
 

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Considering how isolated they make themselves this is definitely a possibility. An 80% Muslim community isn't going to get many openly-gay people visiting it/living it, and with declarations such as "you can't be gay and Muslim" the gay people in that community are likely going to stay closeted throughout their entire life (of course, that's if nothing else happens to them).

Or be fearful

A meeting of LGBT campaigners was held in the city (Thursday March 28), where some gay people voiced their concern that vocal and intimidating protests had been allowed to proceed without police intervention.

More than 100 people attended the meeting, where several reported they felt increasingly threatened, anxious and frightened as a result of the protests.

Insp Matt Crowley told them that protests outside Parkfield school had not constituted a crime, despite coming "very close to that line".

He said policing "hadn't been perfect" but the force took hate crime "very seriously".

In an official statement about the Anderton Park School protests, a spokesman said: "A small group have gathered outside Anderton Park School, Moseley exercising their right to protest peacefully on a number of occasions.

"Police are working closely with the school and the local community to facilitate any planned protests, and prevent a breach of the peace. Officers are present at these protests to ensure no criminal offences take place."

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/head-lgbt-protest-school-urges-16044974

One would have to ask the police, given their own desire to arrest people over tweets, why this is just "very close to that line"?

I'm guessing it's what I said above, because it doesn't appear threatening language has specifically been used, the police would say this is religious freedom to protest something against religious belief?

But then one would have to poke holes in that and state if this was simply a collection of non-religious bigots protesting, peacefully, would they be allowed to or would the police disperse/arrest them?

Coming back to the question of how much "power" does religion get in our societies to be regressive? We have both freedoms of speech and freedom of religion, but where does protesting outside a school with minors, telling them gay people are immoral, stand, when it comes to safety/concern?
 
Last edited:
Oct 29, 2017
5,354
Religious infused teachings and beliefs are not "unrelated regressive beliefs". You doing mental gymnastics to try and distance how interwrapped homophobia is with religion is precisely one of the issues that cause people to tip-toe around problems like this not to offend or feel they are being unfair to a religious group.

Look at the polls and data I posted in this topic and come back and tell me teachings from the Koran/Islam are "unrelated" to how homophobia is viewed if certain parts of the Koran are taken literally.

The only way Christians and Catholics, over generations, get dereadicalised from the utter shit in their Holy Books/teachings is speaking honestly about them.

In this topic we literally have our next generation of homophobic kids growing up in front of us, being taught now to fear and hate LGBT.

My post was specifically referring to dumbass conservatives who think there's a level of hypocrisy when people say "hey we shouldn't murder Muslims in mosques" and " hey Muslims (and any other religious group) shouldn't be homophobic". That's what I meant by unrelated, not that homophobia is "unrelated" to the Muslim faith because it very much is.
 

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My post was specifically referring to dumbass conservatives who think there's a level of hypocrisy when people say "hey we shouldn't murder Muslims in mosques" and " hey Muslims (and any other religious group) shouldn't be homophobic". That's what I meant by unrelated, not that homophobia is "unrelated" to the Muslim faith because it very much is.

Sorry, that was my fault misunderstanding.

Yeah, Conservatives have a field day with this and show their own hypocrisy.

Ugh, I wish the school wouldn't give up.

Appropriate here?

9WAZIrv.jpg

LOL
 

Raijinto

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OK I got annoyed again at seeing the continued protests but that comic strip above brightened me up. It's perfect.
 

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Deleted member 20429

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I've been really disappointed with how this whole thing has been handled. I live in the city center of where this is happening and it just feels like the whole place is becoming much more hostile since this has been going on.

I don't know if it's just a coincidence but a lot of LGBT+ targeted crime has been on the rise in the areas around where a lot of our safe spaces are since these protests have started. I am genuinely starting to become quite scared living here.
 

Mington

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Imagine being a gay man or woman and living in a city where you know there is a minority who would stone you to death due to the religion they follow.
 

Plum

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I've been really disappointed with how this whole thing has been handled. I live in the city center of where this is happening and it just feels like the whole place is becoming much more hostile since this has been going on.

I don't know if it's just a coincidence but a lot of LGBT+ targeted crime has been on the rise in the areas around where a lot of our safe spaces are since these protests have started. I am genuinely starting to become quite scared living here.

As a potential trans-woman (potential as in I haven't commited to transitioning yet, not that I haven't decided) the thought that things might, and probably will, get much worse for LGBT+ in the UK terrifies me. We're already a transphobic-as-fuck nation (even the Guardian is transphobic for fucks sake), add these kinds of tensions onto that and you've got a recipe for anti-trans violence and discrimination.
 

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Imagine being a gay man or woman and living in a city where you know there is a minority who would stone you to death due to the religion they follow.

I think it's the gutlessness and equivocation of the government on protecting LGBTQ people that has allowed this aggression to fester. Not that we're not used to this kind of alienation already, but every time moderates fail to stand up for us it's a reminder that any membership we might want to claim to some broader society is actually very one-sided and the commitments based in little more than political convenience.