This isn't even sex education.
It's diversity education. There's no sex involved unless if you think explaining that some children have different parents is sex education.
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UK school stops LGBT lessons after parents protest
- Thread starter Zem
- Start date
It's diversity education. There's no sex involved unless if you think explaining that some children have different parents is sex education.
You keep saying "bullshit" yet are totally blind to the massive logical inconsistencies in your point. Again you are not advocating for "agency" and kids "choosing who they want to be". You're advocating for instilling them with certain information and ideas you see fit. I'm not against that, that's totally fine with me. The point I'm making to you and OP is you're quest for giving kids "agency" and "free choice" is actually a crock of BS and both of you aren't actually advocating for that.
Here's an example. The Muslims parents want to teach their kid that things A (homophobia) is good and that thing B (homosexuality) is bad. The schools want to teach that thing B (homosexuality) is good and thing A (homophobia) is bad. Where is the agency and free choice for kids here? We have two sets of adults instilling in them certain values they see fit.
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I guess I've just never seen or heard the homophobic side of Islam (in the UK at least). Sheer chance, I guess. I'm friends with several Muslims and never got that impression - one of them even has a transgender sibling who is totally accepted by the wider family (all Muslims).
I'm not American and I live in one of the most Muslim-dense parts of the UK.
Yeah, this is pretty eye-opening.
Think you have your goods/bads mixed up
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I apoligise.
For the record though I also have Muslim friends and in the past knew a girl that did some stuff Muslims weren't supposed to do (like drinking and sleeping around such).
Out of interest in regards to your friends were about in the UK do you live? generally I find that how tolerable/progressive Muslims are (and they can be pretty progressive) generally comes down to whether or not they live in isolated communities. All the second generation Muslims in metropolitan areas like in Liverpool or Manchester tend to be very progressive whereas those that immigrated from other countries to London were districts tend to be more isolated tend to be less so.
You have no idea what No Outsiders is, do you?
It is not saying homosexuality is good.
It is stating that it exists, just like Islam exists, and that different people live in different ways, and that's ok. It's not asking for people to embrace homosexuality but accept that they have the right to exist, something that should be an inalienable right.
The fact that you cannot understand the difference between education on diversity and promotion of a certain way of life is typical of the libertarian right and is completely wrong.
No worries - yep I'm in a big-ish city pretty far up north and most of these friends are second generation - what you're saying adds up.
I can imagine Birmingham being particularly challenging, regarding the info in the OP.
What the heck are you talking about? We don't teach in schools there should be promoted agency around rape, murder and other immoral "choices of agency" in life one can depart on. Yeah, you can still choose to do things/ignore fact as an individual, but that's part of being human. We can educate you that the world is not flat but you can still go ahead and believe it is.
When it comes to sex education, it's backed by science. It's backed by research. It's peer-tested and approved understandings of the brain and species. Homosexuality is even present within the animal kingdom that many humans incorrectly think we're not part of. Evolution, for example, is factual, regardless of religious followers wanting to say it's not true/it's a hoax.
Biology classes will, therefore, teach evolution. Or should, because it's the reality.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your posts it's coming across like "both sides" under the guise of agency?
100% False. Teaching that diversity is good, and that it's okay to be yourself promotes open-mindedness and empathy towards others. Parents forcing their lifestyles on their kids teaches them that being different is bad. That mindset gets etched into their brains as they grow around these sets of beliefs, and becomes so deeply ingrained in how they view the world that people who are different simply existing disrupts their worldview, and without the proper care, turns into hate as they try and "correct" what is disrupting their worldview. Instead of being willing to expand their worldview and change their beliefs to accept others, they become closed off and do whatever they can to fix their worldview, treating people as lesser beings just because they can't stand those who are different from what they were taught to believe.
Growing up in Swindon the BME community was pretty well integrated and while there is obviously an element of hard line people, on the main this sort of thing doesn't happen.
The fact is that more of the Muslim community are active in their faith, and their views on LGBT issues probably isn't far off from the more active members of the Christian faith.
Christian fundamentalism is just as hard-line on LGBT issues too, but because the school involved was predominantly attended by Muslim pupils, it only follows that the protests would be led by them.
I've have and had Muslim friends as well and never known any to be homophobic we well however studies, as you said later in your post, are eye opening.
Id like to think that it's most likely first and second generation families who live in Muslim dense areas where people aren't challenged or integrated as much and that this will inevitably change as we go down the generations, though.
The biggest thing that fucked me up was feeling like I was a freak from a very early stage. It's kinda ruined my life tbh, as those things are deeply embedded.
These parents are ruining people's lives, possibly their own kid's lives, because they're too ignorant and too stupid to grasp the realities of life.
These parents are ruining people's lives, possibly their own kid's lives, because they're too ignorant and too stupid to grasp the realities of life.
Jesus fucking christ, these people are nutcases
Petition - https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235053
The homosexual agenda is plotting to cut your hands off mate.
Also, get a job in mental health so you can attempt conversion therapy and stop the queering of the Muslim community.
Because that ain't damaging to teach that bullshit to kids.
OK.
On the one hand
But let me tell you about female modesty, not bathing and sexual deviances. None of that is a totalitarian endeavour at all. Nope. Nothing to see here other than pure religious teachings.
The hypocrisy and projection is off the charts.
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This. The parents can fuck off. Tolerance of homosexuality and equal treatment of homosexuals is not promoting it. It educating them on British law. Saying that homosexuals exist is not sexual education.
That MP seems to be backpedalling wildly too. She just thinks we need to have an honest conversation now.
My young kids know that some boys marry other boys and some girls marry other girls. It really isn't hard to give age-appropriate education.
When you're stuck between your core voting base and the greater country when you make an ass of yourself. Someone with integrity would go against their core voting base when in a position of power if it meant trying to nudge them in a better direction.
But nah, career MPs gonna career MP.
"All these people wrote to me being bigoted and homophobic, so I better represent them as the chosen MP".
At least someone else from Labour responded
Haha, good catch thanks. Edited it now.
The tagline for the books is literally "A children's bestseller CELEBRATING equality and diversity". They state on their website that their books aim to "challenge negative stereotypes, including sexist, racist and homophobic stereotypes", among other similar such statements. So stop being insanely disingenuous. Do you think they're going into schools and saying "alright kids, sometimes in society a man and a man or a women and women have sexual relationships with each other. That's it lesson done!" What an asinine assertion. The books/program overtly states that it's advocating that homosexuality is good and homophobia is bad.
As I've said before I think that's perfectly fine, but don't make out like you're some free choice hero who wants even kids to have free choice when in actuality you want kids to be taught certain things. Just like their parents. So why should you or OP deride the parents for teaching their kids certain things when this program is doing the exact same thing? Fair enough criticise the type of stuff they're teaching their kids but not the actual action of teaching kids.
I'm not sure if you've been reading the entire discussion. I'll assume you haven't and I sum up my position and why I take exception to the two users other comments. My position is that kids should not have "free choice" and "agency" and that in basically every aspect of society it is adults that choose what information they expose children to. I'm fine with this. It's only once an individual is capable of procuring information for themselves that we can truly say they have free choice and agency on what they choose to believe. Children are not in the vaaaaast majority of cases.
We have the two other individuals criticising religious parents for "indoctrinating" their kids with certain information and not allowing them the "agency" to have a "free choice" in what they believe. How is this any different to what the schools are doing? If you want to criticise the TYPE of information the parents/school/whatever are exposing children to then fine. But don't be so disingenuous as to say that parents shouldn't instill values into their kids and should just let them "choose".
Pretty obvious you haven't understood what the actually discussion is about. I don't disagree with any of what you've posted, but that's not even close to being on topic.
I'll admit I was somewhat confused on what exactly you were arguing.
The brain starts developing in children at a pretty young age. They soak up information and even if some stages of development are required to fully start to grasp certain information that's been instilled into their heads, said information lays the groundwork for future reflection. There is no "blank slate" once you hit 16 or 18.
If you spend time in any therapy room with a troubled teen, or even middle-aged adult, soo much of what they may be struggling with goes back to childhood events or childhood teachings.
So while it's true at certain ages, often legally what we'd call a minor in the UK, adults, predominantly parents, make decisions for or even take decisions away from their kids, what they're taught plays a massive role in their development. Teaching isn't necessarily saying "we're making your choices for you", it's... teaching. It's supplying the information you have to choose to do something productive with.
My points were never as simple as "just let kids choose", more that proper fact-based education has to be taught because it's the grounding for our future generations having the knowledge to make their own (hopefully ethical and productive) decisions. Many kids who think a certain way may live under "tyranny" in their parents home until they move out and move on. That's pretty common, especially in religious households.
Unless it verges into child abuse, the Government can't really interfere much with that, but public schools can provide the education needed to help children and teens move on from their shitty parents. Which is why the parents cry and scream blasphemy soo loudly, they're offended and threatened that their vice grip of indoctrination gets penetrated (no pun intended).
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Terrible. Stop allowing such medieval, bigoted ideas to flourish. Stamp them out. Why even give the bigoted parents a choice with regards to this? Religious freedom is no excuse to allow for young minds to grow up thinking that the oppression of a minority group is okay.
Looks to me like a bunch of people refusing to integrate.
I wasn't aware there's a second one. Not sure how I missed "UK" in the title.
I've listened to multiple interviews with the person who founded the No Outsiders project.
It categorically is celebrating diversity, that multiple different ways of life exists.
That's not saying homosexuality is good. That's saying that homosexuality, Islam, and everything in between exists and that diversity of culture is good. It isn't advocating one set of beliefs, one lifestyle or sexual orientation over another.
If you cannot understand that teaching children to embrace the diversity of society and celebrate it, even if you do not agree with certain viewpoints then you're completely moronic.
And yes it's right to teach people that hatred of others is bad, fuck sake.
Yep yep. but to them anything gay is nasty and sex related. There are people who think gay people only have sex and can't fall in love
Like Stop It said.. Isn't the British Birmingham much more known on a global scale? I always assumed so
My comment was tongue in cheek but yeah one exists because of the other, after all!
For the person who asked, Birmingham is the UKs second largest city (Depending on how you ask Manchester on this!).
I consider myself liberal and left wing, and try to be tolerant, but I have a concern that is at odds with my usual politics - the UK has imported a lot of people who have certain religious beliefs, and what if one day the voting power of those people works to, say, restrict LBGT rights, as an example? As Christianity's hold on the UK loosens, and we become more tolerant of LBGT people, we see Islamic belief on the rise.
To be clear, I have no problem with Muslim people, but I do not like some ideas held within the Islamic religion.
To be clear, I have no problem with Muslim people, but I do not like some ideas held within the Islamic religion.
It'll only ever be pockets of communities. The UK general trends are outpacing the fundamentalists
http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitudes-towards-gay-rights/
The only issue that is a bit more concerning is when the fundamentalists are given into, either out of fear or the likes of the Labour MP caring more about their seat in parliament.
Tolerating intolerance under the guise of being diverse, is, not actually tolerance at all. It's ok to put the foot down at times and say, irrespective of you making the religious or cultural argument, our wider society is not going to accept X.
I grew up taught that being gay was a choice and a horrible thing. I was a good boy so I did my best to be straight.
Turns out i LOVE cock no matter what I do and the end result of those homophobic "lessons" were severe mental health issues.
So yeah fuck these parents tbh.
Turns out i LOVE cock no matter what I do and the end result of those homophobic "lessons" were severe mental health issues.
So yeah fuck these parents tbh.
I think it was only for the day but that doesn't make me any less furious.
Organized religion should have never become a cultural-scale affair
The school is not trying to say homosexuality is a good thing. They are trying to say it's a normal thing. The kids are being taught about the reality of the world, that there are gay people out there and it's OK to be gay just like it's OK to like the colour blue or to enjoy reading a book.
It's actually verging on a chore with how much of your insanely poor logic I have to keep pointing out. It's like you're willfully being ignorant.
Saying homosexuality is "good" does not mean you're advocating it over heterosexuality. There's a difference between saying "Homosexuality is good, you should be homosexuality, it's the best sexuality" and saying "homosexuality is good, there's nothing wrong with being gay". Notice how you can say "homosexuality is good" without saying it is supreme. This is beyond basic so I'm not sure how you're mind managed to create this strawman and argue against it.
This is what this program is doing. It's saying homosexuality is good. It's teaching that homosexuality is good. The parents are saying homosexuality is bad. They're teaching that homosexuality is bad. Both sets of adults are doing that same thing. They're instilling THEIR beliefs on to the children. They're not allowing the the kids to have "agency" and "free choice". Instead they're telling them what is good and what is bad. I'm pointing out how utterly stupid your maxim of "let kids have free choice" is, since NO ONE IS DOING THAT. YOU YOURSELF ARE NOT ADVOCATING FOR THAT. KIDS NEED TO BE TOLD WHAT IS GOOD AND WHAT IS BAD. THEY DON'T HAVE FREE CHOICE OR AGENCY.
Fucking hell.
WOW... you must be a real piece of shit to think that a school is trying to "turn children gay". The purpose is to inform them that LGBTQ people exist, and should be treated just like heterosexual people.
You, along with several others, are missing Andrew-Ryan 's point:
He is not arguing that teaching children to celebrate diversity is bad, he is arguing that it is in no way giving children a free choice, because it is still a form of indoctrination.
And he's totally right. We indoctrinate children. That's what we do, that's what we've always done, as a part of creating and maintaining our society.
Indoctrinating children to be close-minded, bigoted, lying sociopaths is bad. We shouldn't do that, and we should stop people who are trying to do that.
Indoctrinating children to be open-minded, accepting, honest and empathetic is good! We should encourage that in any way possible. But it's still indoctrination, and that shouldn't be shied away from.
(Never thought I'd be defending Andrew Ryan, so thanks for that).
People are exhausting.
that ain't happening unless somehow the rate of immigration surpasses the one of assimilation by a lot.
User Banned (1 week): hostility and thread derailment
They only "real piece of shit" here is you with your atrocious reading and comprehension skills that have lead to a complete moronic and baseless accusation. Not once did I say or even imply that the school was "trying to "turn children gay"". Don't interject in discussion unless you have a base level of intelligence to actually understand.
hallel-fucking-ujah. I honestly didn't think it was a hard point to understand, and I've clarified and repeated it multiple times but it's been beyond infuriating to have this discussion and have people utterly miss the point and call me ever name under the sun just for saying it's impossible to give kids free choice.