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UK says they signed the Brexit deal in a rush

Deleted member 10795

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,302
Phife Dawg said:
How does the UK keep electing Tory governments?
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I think it's easy to fall into a tailspin of reasons and factors trying to answer this.

Stuff like the media helps (well, hinders) of course, but I think the root and deeply unfortunate reality is that large swathes of the electorate are just irredeemably dismal cunts. A lot of the more insidious current policy and posturing that gets rightly derided on communities such as here and Twitter simply plays well with an unfortunate amount of British voters.

It's why I think we have to be careful about calling this lot incompetent or idiots. The play for the absolute worst traits of British culture and outlook is an intentional power grab and I think it's been extremely effective. Cynical, but effective.
 
Dehnus

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
Eoin said:
For this deal, barely any of them did, and they defied the whip to do so.

While I agree that this deal is a bit of a shambles, if it had been voted down the results would have been pandemonium. The EU was running out of patience with extensions. It might well have led to a no deal scenario at the end of January of 2020. The UK's still under-prepared for the exit from transition - an exit in January would have been chaotic in the extreme.

The time for a proper stand from Remain-supporting MPs was long before this agreement came into existence.


The Joint Committee proper has a maximum of 10 members, so anyone joining the call other than those members would probably just be muted.
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OH you party pooper! Live streaming, screaming diplomats! That's the content we need in 2020!

It fits the year so well. :P

(But you're probably right :P. )
 
Phife Dawg

Phife Dawg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,049
Dr Zhivago said:
FPTP.
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I always forget about that, will it ever be reformed or is the UK stuck with it as long as it exists?

Honolulu Blue said:
I think it's easy to fall into a tailspin of reasons and factors trying to answer this.

Stuff like the media helps (well, hinders) of course, but I think the root and deeply unfortunate reality is that large swathes of the electorate are just irredeemably dismal cunts. A lot of the more insidious current policy and posturing that gets rightly derided on communities such as here and Twitter simply plays well with an unfortunate amount of British voters.

It's why I think we have to be careful about calling this lot incompetent or idiots. The play for the absolute worst traits of British culture and outlook is an intentional power grab and I think it's been extremely effective. Cynical, but effective.
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This paints a pretty bleak picture, I feel for the people that didn't vote for this government.
 
kradical

kradical

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,570
Puroresu_kid said:
I'll add the MP's on the other side who voted for the bill to go through are just as culpable.

Reminder Johnson withdrew the Whip from 21 MPs who said they needed more time to analyse the bill, after deliberately proroguing parliament so they couldnt do it.

No Labour MP should ever have voted yes to get it through.
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Only 6 Labour MPs voted for it and it passed 358-234, so their votes were irrelevant anyway.
While we're bringing up culpability, lets not forget the Lib Dems and Change UK (lol) voting against a Customs Union in the indicative votes - if they'd have supported it would have passed.
 
Eoin

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,103
Koukalaka

Koukalaka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,283
Scotland
kradical said:
Only 6 Labour MPs voted for it and it passed 358-234, so their votes were irrelevant anyway.
While we're bringing up culpability, lets not forget the Lib Dems and Change UK (lol) voting against a Customs Union in the indicative votes - if they'd have supported it would have passed.
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I was pissed off with the lack of pragmatism at the time - however, I'm firmly of the belief that any such vote (or indeed if May's third attempt had gone through) would have immediately been sabotaged by the hardliners in her own party. May's power at the time was limited at best, non-existent at worst.

I put a lot of this at May's feet as she completely refused to compromise to try and get something cross-party through the door - she held onto her deal to the last.
 
Koukalaka

Koukalaka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,283
Scotland
Phife Dawg said:
I always forget about that, will it ever be reformed or is the UK stuck with it as long as it exists?
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Starmer's talked about looking at electoral reform as part of the Labour Party's platform, but I'm sceptical as historically FPTP has overwhelmingly benefited the two biggest parties, and I think there's enough people in Labour that see the current situation as a blip, not the new normal, that will try to shut down any attempts to push for serious reform.
 
kradical

kradical

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,570
Koukalaka said:
I was pissed off with the lack of pragmatism at the time - however, I'm firmly of the belief that any such vote (or indeed if May's third attempt had gone through) would have immediately been sabotaged by the hardliners in her own party. May's power at the time was limited at best, non-existent at worst.
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Quite possibly, but we'll never know how it would have turned out because of the hardline revoke or busters.
 
jelly

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Koukalaka said:
Starmer's talked about looking at electoral reform as part of the Labour Party's platform, but I'm sceptical as historically FPTP has overwhelmingly benefited the two biggest parties, and I think there's enough people in Labour that see the current situation as a blip, not the new normal, that will try to shut down any attempts to push for serious reform.
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They probably need to do it because it will be incredibly hard to beat the Tories without Scottish support, could argue this shitshow would give them a better chance than usual. Getting electoral reform through, that's another matter, see how it went last time.
 
Phife Dawg

Phife Dawg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,049
Koukalaka said:
Starmer's talked about looking at electoral reform as part of the Labour Party's platform, but I'm sceptical as historically FPTP has overwhelmingly benefited the two biggest parties, and I think there's enough people in Labour that see the current situation as a blip, not the new normal, that will try to shut down any attempts to push for serious reform.
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Dr Zhivago said:
Stop me if you've heard this before, but there was a referendum...
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Read up on this, seemed pretty reasonable at a glance...oh well. I hope Labour comes to their senses somewhere down the line when they're in control.
 
kradical

kradical

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,570
Koukalaka said:
I don't think we have to guess - the current shenanigans of the government and the ERG are proof enough.
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The current shenanigans of the government and the ERG are due to them having an 80 seat majority and Boris Johnson as Prime Minister, that's no proof of how things would have turned out at the time of the indicative votes with May as Prime Minister with a razor thin majority.
 
Koukalaka

Koukalaka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,283
Scotland
kradical said:
The current shenanigans of the government and the ERG are due to them having an 80 seat majority and Boris Johnson as Prime Minister, that's no proof of how things would have turned out at the time of the indicative votes with May as Prime Minister with a razor thin majority.
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May's government would have almost certainly collapsed if the CU proposal passed, and 100% would have for anything "stronger" like the SM 2.0 one. I don't think she could have held some sort of cross-party coalition together while pushing along a type Brexit she was bitterly opposed to, and which much of her party would have straight up murdered her for.
 
Elandyll

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,806
UK
MOlKZ.gif


EU
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Phife Dawg

Phife Dawg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,049
FliXFantatier said:
I mean the tories have less than zero interest in changing the system that keeps propping them up. FPTP is going nowhere fast.
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But maybe somewhere in the far away future, there won't be a Tory government, maybe? If a lot of votes go "wasted" there may be a consitutional case there? Or is FPTP baked into the constitution (direct representation)?
 
Kinketsu

Kinketsu

Member
Nov 17, 2017
1,975
Xando said:
I just hopes scotland emerges independent out of all of this
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I say new union. UK leaves EU. UK dissolves. Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales form our own union. Rejoin the EU. The No Bart's club approach. We all only hate/keep getting fucked by the same group of people anyway. Do that then let the Tories and the groups of twats in England who vote them in enjoy themselves.
 
Joni

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Kinketsu said:
I say new union. UK leaves EU. UK dissolves. Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales form our own union. Rejoin the EU. The No Bart's club approach. We all only hate/keep getting fucked by the same group of people anyway. Do that then let the Tories and the groups of twats in England who vote them in enjoy themselves.
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Biggest party in the EU elections in Wales was the Brexit Party.
 
Masquerader

Masquerader

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
1,383
Kinketsu said:
I say new union. UK leaves EU. UK dissolves. Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales form our own union. Rejoin the EU. The No Bart's club approach. We all only hate/keep getting fucked by the same group of people anyway. Do that then let the Tories and the groups of twats in England who vote them in enjoy themselves.
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You can't have NI become semi-independent when that view aligns closest with the UDA more than anything else and would lead to more bitterness and strife for decades to come
 

Deleted member 9035

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 
pswii60

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,667
The Milky Way
Phife Dawg said:
How does the UK keep electing Tory governments?
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Mostly because they attract older voters, and it's the older generation that go out and vote. The large section of the older generation that reads the Daily Mail as some kind of bible, clings on to memories of Labour's "Winter of Discontent", has inherent xenophobia, fears liberal values, is obsessed with the royal family and sovereignty, etc. And voted Brexit. Combined with votes from the working class who desperately want and need change, but keep getting brainwashed by the media in to voting for things that will only make things worse for them.

All that, and really fucking weak opposition for the last decade from Labour between Ed and Jez, and also the LibDems losing seats to them, and of course huge SNP gains in Scotland also helping the Tories by reducing the number of Labour seats there.

I don't think the Tories will have it so easy next time. Kier Starmer is finally the level-headed opposition we need, that has a chance to convince all generations, and who also looks like someone who knows how to eat a bacon sandwich.
 
PJV3

PJV3

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Oct 25, 2017
25,676
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pswii60 said:
Mostly because they attract older voters, and it's the older generation that go out and vote. The large section of the older generation that reads the Daily Mail as some kind of bible, clings on to memories of Labour's "Winter of Discontent", has inherent xenophobia, fears liberal values, is obsessed with the royal family and sovereignty, etc. And voted Brexit. Combined with votes from the working class who desperately want and need change, but keep getting brainwashed by the media in to voting for things that will only make things worse for them.

All that, and really fucking weak opposition for the last decade from Labour between Ed and Jez, and also the LibDems losing seats to them, and of course huge SNP gains in Scotland also helping the Tories by reducing the number of Labour seats there.

I don't think the Tories will have it so easy next time. Kier Starmer is finally the level-headed opposition we need, that has a chance to convince all generations, and who also looks like someone who knows how to eat a bacon sandwich.
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I wouldn't call Ed weak, he was unfocused as he flitted from one version of Labour to another, but he went after Murdoch more than many other polticians for example. He just couldn't overcome the Labour years fatigue or the image people had of him.
 
pswii60

pswii60

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Oct 27, 2017
26,667
The Milky Way
PJV3 said:
I wouldn't call Ed weak, he was unfocused as he flitted from one version of Labour to another, but he went after Murdoch more than many other polticians for example. He just couldn't overcome the Labour years fatigue or the image people had of him.
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If his bro David had got the job, I honestly believe history would have been completely different and we wouldn't be where we are now with Brexit and Boris. He would have led Labour to victory in that election. Ed just didn't come across well at all with his struggles with confidence in social settings, his nasally voice etc despite his good intentions. None of those things bothered me, but it played in to the right-wing media's hands with ridiculous stuff like the bacon sandwich incident which everyone remembers. And ideally a leader needs to come across a bit more Emmanuel Macron than Roy Cropper. Although I'm not sure where that leaves Boris lol
 
PJV3

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
pswii60 said:
If his bro David had got the job, I honestly believe history would have been completely different and we wouldn't be where we are now with Brexit and Boris. He would have led Labour to victory in that election. Ed just didn't come across well at all with his struggles with confidence in social settings, his nasally voice etc despite his good intentions. None of those things bothered me, but it played in to the right-wing media's hands with ridiculous stuff like the bacon sandwich incident which everyone remembers. And ideally a leader needs to come across a bit more Emmanuel Macron than Roy Cropper. Although I'm not sure where that leaves Boris lol
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I'm not convinced of that, David has done nothing of note or won anything i'm aware of , he has the benefit of never being tested but i didn't find him impressive. I'm sure the Tory press would have done for him as well, the bacon roll incident shows that they can turn nothing into something with enough effort and a thousand pictures to play with.

Ravensmash said:
5:30pm on a Friday...

lol

(Please resign)
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I'm expecting the opposite and Cummings pushing things further and harder.
 
Eoin

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,103
Phife Dawg said:
But maybe somewhere in the far away future, there won't be a Tory government, maybe? If a lot of votes go "wasted" there may be a consitutional case there? Or is FPTP baked into the constitution (direct representation)?
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Pretty much nothing is baked into the UK's constitution, because what the UK optimistically labels its "constitution" is just a series of laws that deal with the kinds of things that a constitution should deal with, plus a set of case law, precedents and conventions.

Parliament in the UK could change the entire electoral system at any time they wanted - they mostly just don't want to. The last semi-serious chance of change was the 2011 AV referendum. One of the conditions of the coalition between the Conservatives and the Lib Dems was that there would be a referendum on how the UK voted, with voters offered the chance to move away from FPTP. Cameron agreed to that, but spiked it by offering Alternative Vote (AV) which was not the first choice of most people canvassing for vote reform. So the campaign for AV was half-hearted, while the Conservatives campaigned whole-heartedly in favour of FPTP and also told a bunch of huge lies to help them win.

Joni said:
Biggest party in the EU elections in Wales was the Brexit Party.
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This is true, but with only a little more than 32% of the votes from a low turnout, with vote percentage totals from that election for pro-Brexit parties still being well below 50%.

But yes, Wales is definitely a lot more inclined towards supporting Brexit (and electing Brexit supporters) than Scotland or Northern Ireland.

pswii60 said:
All that, and really fucking weak opposition for the last decade from Labour between Ed and Jez, and also the LibDems losing seats to them, and of course huge SNP gains in Scotland also helping the Tories by reducing the number of Labour seats there.
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SNP MPs are as reliably anti-Conservative as Labour MPs from those seats would be, perhaps more so. SNP gains in Scotland only help the Conservatives to the extent that Labour are unwilling to work with the SNP.
 

Mudo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,115
Tennessee
Phife Dawg said:
How does the UK keep electing Tory governments?
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How did the US elect the monster Trump?
I've decided people are generally shit in this world, and will believe and vote against their own fucking wishes, due to being brainwashed, and just generally horrible people. I can't come up with any other explanation.
I'm in the US, and this whole Brexit thing has been surreal to watch, even in the midst of the hell of the last 4 years under Trump. Seriously, what is happening to the world.
 
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