yeah it's the opposite of what it means in the United States - it confused me a while back because people were talking about Corbyn tabling a motion of no confidence for May
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UK parliament indicative votes reject all 8 tabled brexit plans.
- Thread starter LinkStrikesBack
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yeah it's the opposite of what it means in the United States - it confused me a while back because people were talking about Corbyn tabling a motion of no confidence for May
I like how the right leaning UK media is trying to really plaster over the fact that a second referendum won the most votes in parliament.
Or that Brexits that include customs unions etc and things that wouldn't abolish freedom of movement got more votes than shitty crash out plans.
It's pretty fucking indicative tbh.
Or that Brexits that include customs unions etc and things that wouldn't abolish freedom of movement got more votes than shitty crash out plans.
It's pretty fucking indicative tbh.
You mean Brexit can happen without our racist preconditions? Absurd!
Damn. Thanks for your perspectives.
Hoping everything works out
These fucking overpaid rich or born wealthy elite MP's and the PM don't seem to understand that their ego and greed for power is going to massively fuck over the a lot of peoples' lives and health on a scale not seen in a long, long time.
A lot of emotion in this thread,justifiably so with how brexit has been a shitshow so far, but let's get a little context.
Overall, parliament has shown it is for a softer, saner version of brexit. There is now a majority for this. Indeed some of the option got more yeses then may deal had on both occasions it was put to a vote.. From the softer options, it is interesting that Labour's plan and common market 2.0 didn't have a large amount of votes between them. They are technically, as labour themselves have put it, different but are very much the same. Combine the two and you'd have a majority of a soft brexit even the snp can get behind, yes this requires work but lots of furious back channeling will now take place before Monday and if I was Starmer and co, I'd do my best to get a combination of both deals and put it to parliament as one single one later down the line if need be.
The second most common option was the confirmation ref. Add this to the deal I mentioned above and you'd get a solid majority for a solution in the HoC, as this would virtually saitsfy every remainer, moderate, and most leavers across all parties. Even if this option won in a ref, the UK would be leaving the eu but in the softest and least damaging way.
The other thing is how close the CU option was to passing for a majority this time around. This represents, at least compared to mays deal, a substantially softer brexit, this again would satisfy a large number of remainers and leavers. Personally I'd fucking hate to lose freedom of movement but the damage done to the uk would be much less compared to mays deal.
This is just stage one, this was meant to have parliament get it all out so the bullshit amendments ,like the no deal one yet again, let mps vent thier frustrations and act as a filter just so the number of options can be whittled down, at least 4 will probably be removed for next week, which will sharpen mp minds and get them to work together to get solid idea of what they can get around. There was never meant to be a majority at this stage for anything.
Hell, I'm a little shocked on how a second ref was so popular! Clearly their is an appetite for a second ref, which would allow the chance of remaining to be higher and give a chance for the uk to right a wrong, hopefully.
Remember there was a LOT of abstentions today, which did a number on true results.
So sure at a surface level it looks gloomy, but look below that and slowly but surely, some sanity is being restored to the brexit process.
Overall, parliament has shown it is for a softer, saner version of brexit. There is now a majority for this. Indeed some of the option got more yeses then may deal had on both occasions it was put to a vote.. From the softer options, it is interesting that Labour's plan and common market 2.0 didn't have a large amount of votes between them. They are technically, as labour themselves have put it, different but are very much the same. Combine the two and you'd have a majority of a soft brexit even the snp can get behind, yes this requires work but lots of furious back channeling will now take place before Monday and if I was Starmer and co, I'd do my best to get a combination of both deals and put it to parliament as one single one later down the line if need be.
The second most common option was the confirmation ref. Add this to the deal I mentioned above and you'd get a solid majority for a solution in the HoC, as this would virtually saitsfy every remainer, moderate, and most leavers across all parties. Even if this option won in a ref, the UK would be leaving the eu but in the softest and least damaging way.
The other thing is how close the CU option was to passing for a majority this time around. This represents, at least compared to mays deal, a substantially softer brexit, this again would satisfy a large number of remainers and leavers. Personally I'd fucking hate to lose freedom of movement but the damage done to the uk would be much less compared to mays deal.
This is just stage one, this was meant to have parliament get it all out so the bullshit amendments ,like the no deal one yet again, let mps vent thier frustrations and act as a filter just so the number of options can be whittled down, at least 4 will probably be removed for next week, which will sharpen mp minds and get them to work together to get solid idea of what they can get around. There was never meant to be a majority at this stage for anything.
Hell, I'm a little shocked on how a second ref was so popular! Clearly their is an appetite for a second ref, which would allow the chance of remaining to be higher and give a chance for the uk to right a wrong, hopefully.
Remember there was a LOT of abstentions today, which did a number on true results.
So sure at a surface level it looks gloomy, but look below that and slowly but surely, some sanity is being restored to the brexit process.
Ahh yes, the clip that made me discover and fall in love with Susanna Reid.
NO.
Does that mean proceed with Brexit?
NO.
Give the people a second vote?
NO.
Cut a deal for a soft Brexit?
NO.
Hard Brexit?
NO.
Just, NO. No everywhere.
Let me understand this better: a customs union means no tariffs between the UK and EU, but non-tariff barriers, like differing food safety regulations, are OK, and there is no freedom of movement. Is that right? So, in essence, the UK is trading its right to decide its own foreign economic policy for the right to eat shittier food and keep out immigrants?
I'm not sure what the DUP want. Do they want war again? Settle some old scores with the IRA? Or do they just expect the EU to hand Ireland back to the UK?
I have no fucking clue what in the world could actually satisfy the pea brains.
Nor should they. The four freedoms are in-fucking-divisible. Otherwise why would the periphery stay? It's one thing to be the ghetto of Europe. It's another to be fenced into that ghetto.
As I understand it, Article 50 was invoked, meaning the UK started a two-year timer on negotiations to leave the EU. Once the timer hits zero, unless an agreement is reached, the UK leaves the EU and reverts to default WTO trade rules for interacting with the EU.
The thing is, unless the UK votes to do something, anything, the timer runs out and they "hard Brexit," ie crash out of the EU on WTO rules. To "give up Brexit" they would need to vote to rescind Article 50 -which they just voted against.
They voted against "no deal/hard Brexit" as well, but that's like being on a jury and saying "I won't vote guilty or not guilty, and I won't vote for a hung jury."
Hey Britain, 44 hours until you DIEEEE!
No on that one they agreed and shifted the date already.
At the point I feel like most would take the war criminal back over May or PigFucker.
Can somsone explain why the second referdum vote got so many more overall votes than some of the other options?
Because some MPs still have faint traces of sanity left within their withered husks.
What's to explain? They want the voters to make the decision for them since anyone who pulls Article 50 is gonna get murdered electorally and whoever actually picks a Brexit option will be responsible for the fucked up fallout.
I think they were asking about why the total number of votes - both for and against - for the second referendum vote was higher than some of the other options put forwards this evening. As in, ideally every option would tally to the same number of votes, but not all options did.
If that was the case AnotherNils, MPs could abstain from voting in these, which many did. The more overall votes, like the second referendum one, is indicative of what they care more about than some of the other options.
Or, as that last sentence seems to give them too much credit, the second referendum vote was more important to them to show off various allegences, which is of course more important than the security of the country.
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Really? Her job is to enable Piers Morgan to spout a transphobic tirade every morning and she plays the both sides shit every time a remainer is interviewed.
She's garbage.
We've had enough constitutional crises under this government already without getting Liz involved. So no thanks.
Second vote must be 2/3rds majority to leave... which is what it should have been in the first place
The second referendum amendment was complimentary to a lot of the other options, it was saying that any deal agreed in parliament should go back to be confirmed. So we could end up with that + something else.
The best chance of it passing is if May tacks it on to her deal. It would be pretty much guaranteed to get through.
I know people are shitting themselves about this all coming back No, but people need to remember this result was expected. This wasn't a vote to find a majority, it was a vote to figure out what could gather enough affirmative votes to find contenders. People will know begin working on the two or three contenders around this, and begin trying to rally and whip for support next week. So the strong near-miss result for a 2nd Ref, for instance, actually pushes us closer to that, not further away.
They are all useless fucks, though.. and ultimately I do think the true end game of this is a general election now. The make-up of the commons can't comfortably break this deadlock, which means the make-up needs to be changed by a GE. I also don't think you can really do a 2nd ref without also doing a GE either shortly before, immediately afterwards or even possibly concurrently.
A lot of Ministers abstained on other options, but voted on that one as it was really the most contentious.
This is the problem though. You can't democratically move the goalposts like this. I strongly advocate for another vote, but I worry about what it will do to the country: if it does return as Remain, people will say that democracy was stolen from them. It's the sort of event that will radicalize people and fuel a further rise in far-right parties and groups, because people with (malicious or misguided) views around Brexit will be driven right having been "betrayed" by the political class. I'd predict a rise in violent protest, in attacks on MPs and Councillors, and so on.
The implications socially for Britain in the event of a 2nd Ref with a remain result honestly frighten me almost as much as No Deal - in some ways more. If you moved the goalposts to stack the deck against leave further the impact would be even worse. Cameron's government made a mistake with the text of its question the first time around, and the country now must deal with that.
They are all useless fucks, though.. and ultimately I do think the true end game of this is a general election now. The make-up of the commons can't comfortably break this deadlock, which means the make-up needs to be changed by a GE. I also don't think you can really do a 2nd ref without also doing a GE either shortly before, immediately afterwards or even possibly concurrently.
A lot of Ministers abstained on other options, but voted on that one as it was really the most contentious.
This is the problem though. You can't democratically move the goalposts like this. I strongly advocate for another vote, but I worry about what it will do to the country: if it does return as Remain, people will say that democracy was stolen from them. It's the sort of event that will radicalize people and fuel a further rise in far-right parties and groups, because people with (malicious or misguided) views around Brexit will be driven right having been "betrayed" by the political class. I'd predict a rise in violent protest, in attacks on MPs and Councillors, and so on.
The implications socially for Britain in the event of a 2nd Ref with a remain result honestly frighten me almost as much as No Deal - in some ways more. If you moved the goalposts to stack the deck against leave further the impact would be even worse. Cameron's government made a mistake with the text of its question the first time around, and the country now must deal with that.
The "what do you even want?" gag from years ago rings even more true now than ever before. Maybe it'd be easier at this point to look for alternatives that haven't been shot down yet, like strapping a bunch of balloons to the soil and Up themselves towards South America. Childish cartoon dreams does not appear to be an issue at least.
The fucking thing was never binding and it's a disaster.
It's a point of no return decision hence 2/3rds required.
Prefer to tank your economy and future out of fear.... brilliant
But fine 2/3rds required for immediate no deal Brexit
Only simple majority required for a fully detailed and agreed upon Brexit that isn't a shit show.
If you're the scared of insurrection
An exampole why this is not true: Trump has assigned a lot of judges who will sit there basically until they retire. And he made sure a lot of them are in their 30s and 40s, so they will sit there for decades. This will fuck over especially POC and other minorities for a long long time.
So they hold a second referandum, Putin's troll machine goes into overdrive, Leave still wins, then what?
The fact is that should've been the original question on the original paper. It wasn't. A 2nd ref is a difficult enough option to sell without also saying that we're moving the goalposts as well. I wrote to my MP saying a larger majority should've been required at the time, when the format of the question on the paper was being debated in the HOC for months on end - did you? It's too late to do this shit now, realistically, without ugly repercussions (not that Brexit itself isn't ugly). Given the disaster it is clear this is, loads of dead elderly leave voters in the last two years and just as many young people likely to lean remain joining the electorate, Remain should be able to win without resorting to this anyway. I'm more keen to ensure the 2nd Ref happens at all, and if you table is at this sort of question even Remain-leaning Tories will probably turn on it as an option.
We're in trouble regardless but I'd rather deal with a few obese far right morons than having our economy in the shitter for decades.
The tories are reprehensible shitheels and I'd have considered them evil... if I hadn't seen what unrestrained evil looks like after Trump was elected.
Now I consider the tories to be malevolently incompetent.