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phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
When I read the news about that apology, a decent number of Dutch people were commenting that the Dutch were not an invading force in Indonesia at all but some sort of liberators. So I'm not that surprised at these results.

I think most people know jack shit about Nederlands-Indie. It's a complicated messy history, as you can see by the Dutch-Indo objections against the apology, which was NOT about the colonial era but the violence during the war of independence. People of mixed decent had to be protected after the war from independence fighters by the same Japanese soldiers that put them in camps in the war. Apologies like the king made for the direct violent reaction is reasonable, but I can also understand Dutch-Indo people not forgetting the violence of the Bersiap period.

Non of that excuses a fondness of Empire, of course, which in Indonesia consisted of control through local warlords and conquest through violence and extortion of local economies through granting of trade monopolies, forced labor, and demanding tribute. Apologies there are overdue.

Theres a great doc talking with vets from the independence war, with a lot more regret but also incredible violence from both sides being discussed surprisingly frankly.
 

Naphu

Member
Apr 6, 2018
729
Same thing with many Russians, except they've been actually taking disturbing steps to restore their "glorious" USSR status. All the recent fractures in the post-WWII world order is more than just Trump throwing a toaster into the bath. There's this deep worldwide insecurity that's manifesting itself in this longing for sanitized and mythologized kingdoms of old that exists in people's heads. Their personal identity so diminished, they feel no choice but to compensate with a nationalistic identity instead.

Come to think of it, there was that recent U.N. report that concluded global economic inequality is damaging democratic systems worldwide. I'm not sure of all the factors feeding into this feeling but this seems like one of them at least. A modern serfdom whose personal lives are so disempowered, they would accept an authoritarian nation if that would at least allow them to feel better than other nations; their ego being so famished.
 
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Ivanovic

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,362
They can yearn all they want about empire. It's not coming back and never will. They should be more worried about the U.K. breaking up which is more likely to happen in the next decade than the empire happening again in a thousand years.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
One of the things I do credit the French and Dutch for is that they mostly own up to their colonial past and in several cases do maintain close relations to their past colonies. UK on the other hand doesn't, infact they pretty much cut ties with the countries they colonised when they started getting closer to Europe. It was like the epitome of fuck you got mine. It never made much sense to me that UK was closer to Europe than any of their past colonies.

It doesn't help that we don't really get taught about Colonialism in school. I think the most we got was a brief mention of the Trail of Tears in one lesson, which is also easy to dismiss as an American thing. 20th Century history was then basically about the World Wars and Russia and that's about all we covered for two years.
I spent a year of university abroad in Singapore and did an elective class on History which was frankly quite eye-opening.
I've met Brits who didn't know India was a colony, not even joking! You'd think that people would know about the single biggest and most important colony during colonial times for any country, not just Britain. Especially when it's the colony that enabled Britain to maintain their dominance as well as separation from the rest of the Europe.

Those people who think Britain will be fine alone because "we didn't need the EU back in the past" forget that they didn't need EU because they had India and other colonies to rely on in a pre globalisation world. So how can they expect to be on their own in a globalised world?
 
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Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
Most of England see the British Empire being a good thing for the countries they brutalised and pillaged. It's fucking ridiculous.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
Didn't learn jack shit about the Empire in school.

We got a bit on India and Gandhi. But I only remember it being about surface level violence towards the end of colonisation and them pushing Gandhi and his peaceful protest as the sole reason it ended.

I don't agree with this sentiment at all, but I think its more common than we would like to think.

I'd be shocked if the majority of the country over 40 don't believe it.
 

Unaha-Closp

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,727
Scotland
Yeah. On the surface, it's all very romantic and swashbuckling adventures abroad but the reality is horrific abuse, theft, neglect, subjugation, massacres etc. You could, if charitable, put it down to the 'time' and everyone else was doing it but that shit doesn't fly these days normally but Brexit is not normal days. We did not get taught the ill shit Britain did during it's Empire Days in School. You just don't right? No one wants their dirty washing waved about for all to see.
 

Loxley

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,618
My expectations for the Netherlands are really damn low and I'm still fucking shocked at those numbers. Jesus Christ, so disgusting.

Empires%20chart%201-01.png


Funnily enough, our king just apologized for the pain and suffering caused while visiting Indonesia.

I'm more shocked by the number of people across the board who say it's nothing to proud of or ashamed of.

The hell kind of person says "Yeah, I'm indifferent on Colonialism".
 
Oct 26, 2017
273
the rooftops.
Mixed race Brit checking in \o/

My father as an example:

-has mixed race child but openly used racist language when even slightly provoked.

- loves soul, Motown, favourite artist is Tina Turner but casually throws around the term "sooty" :(

-claims to be a patriot, swells with pride at the sight of the Union flag whilst maintaining the position that Scotland can "fuck off" if the want to suceed, and that the Northern Irish are trouble -makers who can also "fuck off."

-Voted for Brexit and - of course - claims he doesn't have a racist bone in his body.

-Doesn't care for "history" outside of the events that have happened in his lifetime - WW2 and a very rudimentary understanding of the empire being the only exceptions.

-when challenged on the fallacies and self- defeating rhetoric that he employs, he almost explodes.

The very model of a turkey voting for Christmas and working class conservative voter.

Every time I encounter racist abuse, I describe it to him in detail and he gets angry on my behalf . I hope one day the penny will drop but ultimately the glaze in his eyes shows that he is like a being in three dimensional space trying to comprehend a four dimensional shape.

His ilk will never acknowledge the things they do and wait with salivating lips for the next scapegoat that gets served up by their masters.

Anti-intellectual, small minded, easily manipulated and looking to a non existent rose tinted past for comfort.

But I love him with every fibre of my being. If only I could cut through the stubbornness and ignorance...
 
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Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,299
Very saddening but definitely not surprising. In school we only get taught all of the good things Britain/England did (whether legitimate or not) and there is barely any, if at all, reference to the bad. In the wider world you really have to actively seek out education on the horrors of colonialism because not even our museums, popular media and more really touch on that stuff.

For instance I went to the Imperial War Museum last year and there was barely a mention of colonial wars despite those taking up such a massive chunk of the wars Britain fought in. There's no harrowing exhibitions or grand displays on the horrors Britain forced upon its colonies (even during the wars the Museum actually covers) but you can be damn sure that there's tons on what the Nazis did (and, in turn, what we saved the world from).

So when people grow older they have this entrenched view of Britain, and the British Empire, as a unilaterally good thing, and when people come and say that "no, it isn't," they view that as an attack on their identity. Either that or they simply don't care that much, which is a very big possibility for reasons I've tried to explain in my quote below.

I don't know how it can change, really. The only way I can see it changing drastically is through time. The young of today aren't going to be living in the idealised post-war Britain of the mid 20th century, they're going to be living in a Britain divided by Brexit and pilfered by the actual superpowers of the world. Anecdotally I've yet to meet a single young person my age who is genuinely proud of their country in the way most Boomers are.

Then again we're also living in a society where media is controlled so insanely heavily by people who would have likely been colonisers 'back in the day' so who knows, things might just stay the same. I also can't deny the underlying racism of it all; for many people it's sickeningly common for them to just not really care (or worse) about the things that happen to those of different races so even education might not be able to change them.

Something should definitely be done, though, I'm just not the one to really say what that is.

I'm more shocked by the number of people across the board who say it's nothing to proud of or ashamed of.

The hell kind of person says "Yeah, I'm indifferent on Colonialism".

I can see their point, even if I don't agree with it whatsoever. When you ask "are you ashamed/proud of something" that is generally seen as a personal thing, and for many people they personally do not see the ways in which colonialism may have helped and, potentially, harmed them. They see the white privilege of today as something that, at best, is not tied to the colonialism of yesterday and, at worst, doesn't even exist. So, when asked whether they're proud or not of colonialism, they see it as whether they're proud or not of some things a bunch of people did decades before they were even born.

Add that on to the fact that, despite colonialism, the Britian of that era was still rife with extreme poverty, horrible worker's rights and generally shit conditions then many can easily argue that "My family didn't do it, so why should I be ashamed or proud?" Contextually when someone's barely scrounging by in the lower-working class with a family history that consists primarily of poverty I think that such a view-point is one that can naturally happen considering the utter lack of education we have on colonialism and its effects.

It's not a correct view-point because, as mentioned above, the white privilege of today is a direct result of colonialism no matter your familial situation/history, but if we're to educate people better on the matter then it's something that needs to be taken into account.

Personally I think these sorts of questions should be worded differently. Using words such as 'proud' or 'ashamed' turns it so much more personal than it really should be as it directly ties one's own identity to that of colonialism and, as such, can only really strengthen people's already-existing wrong views instead of leading them to perhaps question them. I can't really say how they should be worded, though, and there's a fair chance I'm wrong here so who knows.
 

iapetus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,078
I can see their point, even if I don't agree with it whatsoever. When you ask "are you ashamed/proud of something" that is generally seen as a personal thing, and for many people they personally do not see the ways in which colonialism may have helped and, potentially, harmed them. They see the white privilege of today as something that, at best, is not tied to the colonialism of yesterday and, at worst, doesn't even exist. So, when asked whether they're proud or not of colonialism, they see it as whether they're proud or not of some things a bunch of people did decades before they were even born.

Add that on to the fact that, despite colonialism, the Britian of that era was still rife with extreme poverty, horrible worker's rights and generally shit conditions then many can easily argue that "My family didn't do it, so why should I be ashamed or proud?" Contextually when someone's barely scrounging by in the lower-working class with a family history that consists primarily of poverty I think that such a view-point is one that can naturally happen considering the utter lack of education we have on colonialism and its effects.

It's not a correct view-point because, as mentioned above, the white privilege of today is a direct result of colonialism no matter your familial situation/history, but if we're to educate people better on the matter then it's something that needs to be taken into account.

Personally I think these sorts of questions should be worded differently. Using words such as 'proud' or 'ashamed' turns it so much more personal than it really should be as it directly ties one's own identity to that of colonialism and, as such, can only really strengthen people's already-existing wrong views instead of leading them to perhaps question them. I can't really say how they should be worded, though, and there's a fair chance I'm wrong here so who knows.

Absolutely this. Though I suspect there are also quite a few people taking the view that the good Britain brought to its colonies probably cancels out the minor downsides, which is a less tolerable view. Education is the first step towards fixing things somewhat - but can you imagine the collective fury of Brexit voters if anyone suggested talking down the Great British Empire in our schools?
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,486
New York
Brits fear foreigners coming into their country and "interfering" in their sovereignty so much they kneecap themselves in order to leave the EU, yet at the same time pine for the good ol days when they would interfere and meddle in the affairs of foreign countries. Brilliant. Do as I say, not as I do.
 

Deleted member 27246

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,066
I'm more shocked by the number of people across the board who say it's nothing to proud of or ashamed of.

The hell kind of person says "Yeah, I'm indifferent on Colonialism".

It has nothing to do with indifference. It is the way the questions are asked. I think colonialism is bad, I think the Dutch Empire was a bad thing. I feel sorry for all the victims of colonialism, however I do not feel ashamed. Why should I? I do not feel shame (or pride) for things that are not my own doing.

So in short: Is Dutch colonialisn a bad thing: Yes. Are you ashamed of it: No


I'm also not proud of inventing the telescope. It wasn't me who did it.
 

AnotherNils

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,936
Want to leave a union for independence, also want larger union where countries under you have even less independence.

Completely checks out
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Same here, although I think with France it's a slightly different nuance. There's a lot of racist old dudes pining for Algeria, but they see at as part of France rather than a "colony"
That's how Algeria was classified by the French government, not as a colony but as full departments of France.
 

TheBaldwin

Member
Feb 25, 2018
8,285
Not surprising. Alot of people either arn't aware of the atrocities the empire caused (due to our piss poor history lessons on the subject) or are aware, and they don't care because 'it was a different time' or 'we were better and not SNOWFLAKES back then' etc etc.

I also love the arguement that we brought 'democracy' or made there countries better. Yes i'm sure the nations were incredibly happy with the train tracks that were built.....to export there nations resources out of their county for money they didnt profit from.

The way we treated India especially was absolutely disgusting.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,321
SĂŁo Paulo - Brazil
My expectations for the Netherlands are really damn low and I'm still fucking shocked at those numbers. Jesus Christ, so disgusting.

Empires%20chart%201-01.png


Funnily enough, our king just apologized for the pain and suffering caused while visiting Indonesia.

I wonder if Italians are more likely to feel ashamed of their colonial empire because it was so unsuccessful rather than because of the problems of empire building, exploitation, racism, etc.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,805
I would had put my money on the French, but this is not surprising.
We had racists try to enshrine in law that colonialism was a "good" thing it generated quite a bit of a blowback.
France is more nostalgic of it domineering position of Europe than it is about owning shit across the world they couldn't give less of a shit.
If we're talking about people old enough to have known Algeria, they're missing Algeria not the colonial empire.
The rest of the population couldn't give less of a shit if you don't have people actually surprised France was ever a colonial power.
 
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Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,351
They didn't even teach any of this in school when I was growing up (no I'm not Caucasian, but am British), it's disgusting and they shamelessly parade it via the media as a good thing with all these period dramas.
 

King Kingo

Banned
Dec 3, 2019
7,656
Oh, how I love being a citizen of the Divided Kingdom... why do Boomers have allergies to diversification?
 

Lazlow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,148
Ironically it is the same 3rd of the population that don't want any of the inhabitants of those colonies existing near them.
 

Garjon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,998
What do people expect when the awful aspects and brutality of the Empire isn't taught in schools? We learn of how Britain controlled a massive portion of the planet yet are also taught to condemn the empire building of fellow Europeans; I'd expect it to be the same in every other European country. Nationalism didn't come from nowhere, it's just that it's now being weaponised