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Syder

The Moyes are Back in Town
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
12,543
I canvassed for this party in 2017 and again last year. To think that right wing appointees, paid for with our membership fees - were acting against not only investigations in to AS but also acting against the interests of the party and the prospects of electoral success is... Just infuriating.
I feel you, I've given untold hours and energy to this party on a local level over the last decade and I want to cry.

Chatting in IM groups, pretending to work in the opposition campaign is the definition of White people failing upwards - They are so much bigger leeches on society than any benefit fraudster that's ever lived, they are soulless ghouls that just want to sit in these positions and achieve fuck all for years and years. These people are as scary, if not more so, than dyed-in-the-wool Tories; they believe in no other authority than money and control - it is entirely an ideology of the self at all expense to the collective.

Anyone that spoke negatively of Corbyn's leadership needs to go and look at themselves in the mirror, he was the only thing keeping this disgraceful shithole party together.
 

gerg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,343
I think Centrists have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by their visible sabotaging of the left time after time again that they want factionalism far more than the left does. Why unite with people who literally hate you more than they hate the Tories? Who attack you more than they attack the Tories? No, this is on them.

Like any bad relationship, the onus will be on both sides to reunite. Granted that COVID-19 has changed things (and enacted policy that at the start of the year would have proved unthinkable), but at the moment I don't think there is a clear argument to be made that the British public as a whole want a fully left-wing government. Maybe that would be different if Labour's policies had last been put to people in an election that was unrelated to Brexit; maybe it would be different if they had been put to people with a different person as leader of the Labour party; maybe it would be different if the party as a whole ran more smoothly and with greater conformity. At present, though, those seem like unknowns. If I'm wrong on this, and there is polling to suggest that Labour's policies are on the whole more popular than those of the Tories, please let me know! (Edit: In any case, this thread should most likely not turn into another discussion about the last election!)

I understand the frustration that the party is so dysfunctional. But we don't currently have a political situation that can successfully accommodate multiple, smaller left-wing parties. Broad-church parties are therefore a necessity, until that can change.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,072
Like any bad relationship, the onus will be on both sides to reunite. Granted that COVID-19 has changed things (and enacted policy that at the start of the year would have proved unthinkable), but at the moment I don't think there is a clear argument to be made that the British public as a whole want a fully left-wing government. Maybe that would be different if Labour's policies had last been put to people in an election that was unrelated to Brexit; maybe it would be different if they had been put to people with a different person as leader of the Labour party; maybe it would be different if the party as a whole ran more smoothly and with greater conformity. At present, though, those seem like unknowns. If I'm wrong on this, and there is polling to suggest that Labour's policies are on the whole more popular than those of the Tories, please let me know!

I understand the frustration that the party is so dysfunctional. But we don't currently have a political situation that can easily accommodate multiple, smaller left-wing parties. Broad-church parties are therefore a necessity, until that can change.
Problem is that unless the right part of Labor which were caught with their pants down in these conversation have anything with a similar level of "the other side doesnt want to work with us!", the onus is on them showing not to be assholes.
Things work both ways and the one that was shown to be radioactive and uncooperative to disgusting degrees was the more right wing of Labour. They are the ones that should bend the knee and ask for forgiveness. Asking the attacked part to "accept them" despite treasonous (and disgusting in general) behaviour would only lead to even bigger disenfranchisement.

Edit: regarding why the document was not allowed to be added into the antisemitism investigation by the lawyers, I am not surprised given some of the snipets in here. It seems like half of the document is not really closely related stuff to that and goes into other stuff (that is still scandalous and should be purged) but just not close to that topic.
 

gerg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,343
Problem is that unless the right part of Labor which were caught with their pants down in these conversation have anything with a similar level of "the other side doesnt want to work with us!", the onus is on them showing not to be assholes.
Things work both ways and the one that was shown to be radioactive and uncooperative to disgusting degrees was the more right wing of Labour. They are the ones that should bend the knee and ask for forgiveness. Asking the attacked part to "accept them" despite treasonous (and disgusting in general) behaviour would only lead to even bigger disenfranchisement.

Edit: regarding why the document was not allowed to be added into the antisemitism investigation by the lawyers, I am not surprised given some of the snipets in here. It seems like half of the document is not really closely related stuff to that and goes into other stuff (that is still scandalous and should be purged) but just not close to that topic.

Oh of course. But if the centrists do change tack then it would not do the party's electoral chances much good for the left-wing branch to refuse that.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,072
Oh of course. But if the centrists do change tack then it would not do the party's electoral chances much good for the left-wing branch to refuse that.
Onus is on them to ask for forgivenness and pay penance (or be purged). Even then, they will likely still be held in content for a while because the behaviour in the leaked conversation is very bad. The effect this will have in the many grassroots organizations that actually are the power of Labour will be enormous, and if they barely get a slap in the wrist because "they are necessary to win" after showing some of them don't care about Labour winning but rather themselves winning, it will be even worse.
 

Deleted member 862

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,646
Oh of course. But if the centrists do change tack then it would not do the party's electoral chances much good for the left-wing branch to refuse that.
are you even reading these posts? they've spent the past 5 years undermining the party they're suppose to work for (not to mention activly working against the people that need them).

There's no factionism here there's one side trying to do the right thing and one group rowing in the wrong direction. They're not part of this and need to be kicked out yesterday. It isn't on the left to bend the knee to these people now Corbyn is gone, they don't get to win this one.

If that's the party Keir wants and he does hire someone like Emilie Oldknow back it sends a crystal clear message. There's no unity with these people. ever. They are worse than the Tories.
 
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OP
OP
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
I've been to one or two legendary work nights our where the fear was half the employees you know won't be in work next week, but this takes the cake.

Starmer has to purge everyone in this document being racist, abusive, bullying and yes, those admitting they wanted the Labour party to lose. None of that is acceptable.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,850
No one throwing the accusation cared about evidence, they cared about the damage it did.
 

Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,920
London
Jesus, some of the stuff coming out of this report is painting a really bleak picture about the infighting in Labour.





 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,095
Slept on it and yup, still mad as hell.

4 years of the UK democratic process being an absolute farce because centrist were upset that people didn't vote for them, fucking terrorist the lot of them.
 

JohnPaulv2.0

Member
Dec 3, 2017
571
The Times attempting to control the narrative:
www.thetimes.co.uk

Antisemitism ‘smear campaign’ by allies of former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn

Jeremy Corbyn’s allies have been accused of a last-minute bid to “smear whistleblowers” and “discredit allegations” of antisemitism in the Labour Party during his tenure.An extensive internal investigation carried out during the final month of Mr Corbyn’s reign concluded that antisemitism was not
 

Koukalaka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,279
Scotland
The Times attempting to control the narrative:
www.thetimes.co.uk

Antisemitism ‘smear campaign’ by allies of former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn

Jeremy Corbyn’s allies have been accused of a last-minute bid to “smear whistleblowers” and “discredit allegations” of antisemitism in the Labour Party during his tenure.An extensive internal investigation carried out during the final month of Mr Corbyn’s reign concluded that antisemitism was not

That's... uh, an interesting take on the contents of the report.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
It's pretty bad seeing this stuff in black and white but we knew this shit was going on via rumours and the blatant action of some who have thankfully already gone.

So I'm perhaps strangely, feeling OK about it, providing Keir doesn't bring some of them back of course. He would be fucking stupid to bring back some of the officials, but I can see him treading carefully due to the data breach stuff.
 

Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
There it is! I wouldn't be surprised at all if something similar was happening in the U.S with the Democrats..




It's totally happening there, too
 

ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,163
Corbyn was a decent person, and yet look what they did to him. Now most of the country thinks he is a bad person and terrible leader. And hey, Corbyn had his flaws, but what they were doing to him were beyond just criticizing his flaws. I have stopped thinking centrism was a good thing for a while, but wow, my opinion of centrism is going lower than I ever thought possible.
 

Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,920
London
Imagine being so petty as to constantly undermine a democratically elected leader of your left-wing party and ensure that straight up Tory bastards stay in power for almost fifteen years. Imagine.

And this is the best option we've got, as a country. Fuck's sake.
 

ps3ud0

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,906
Can anyone else think of political sabotage on the same level and duration? Perhaps I'm being naive but this and the expected fallout seems unprecedented.

For the fact MPs are publicly tweeting about how the report adds 20:20 to discussions/requests they had in the past is illuminating...

Now Boris, where that Russia report? While you're at it dig up the Acuri and Cygnus Report too please...

ps3ud0 8)
 
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Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,620
It was obvious this was going on but it's really something seeing it clearly laid out like this. It'll be interesting to see how Starmer reacts to this because this could very well be the thing that defines his leadership.
 
OP
OP
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943


He's not wrong! Whilst Labour chase their "roots" in the North of England all the socialists should go vote for the Greens or something.

That or move up North and help the cause in Scotland!

 
Oct 27, 2017
3,483
After the December election I remember seeing a quote accusing momentum and the left wing of Labour of caring more about being in control of the party than actually being in power. (Paraphrasing) Typical bullshit about how they must return to the centre to get electoral victory. This confirms what I thought. The right in Labour actively sabotaged the party and the leadership from day one. They are the ones who care more about control of the party than control of government. They're the ones expressing dismay at the 2017 election upset and are happy when the party loses. They don't give a fuck about antisemitism or racism except as a tool to weaponise against the left.

If Bernie had won the primary you would have seen pretty much the same actions by careerists who would prefer a second Trump term.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
The one victory of the Corbyn years, was finally getting a load of tossers leaving the party and Westminster, the left is in a strong position and it would be pretty daft to throw that away. I know Starmer wanted to put all the arguments to bed and get a fresh start but he should deal with report calmly and with a firm hand.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
The bigger issue for the future is not that the Labour Party wanted to kick out Corbyn, it's that the Labour Party have no intention of allowing public participation or grass movements within politics.They got rid of that shit in the late 80s/90s, they're not letting that back in.

Anyone who went along with the slaughtering of Corbyn, should be happy with the next 20 years of drab, grey-suited business men telling us we have to endure whatever shit we have to endure, subduing any critique of crises after crises the UK stumbles through, and having a complete lack of imagination for a future that's not like the present shithole we're all living through.
 

Deleted member 30395

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 3, 2017
586
I actually worked on the 2017 GE campaign in some capacity, and was involved indirectly with people who had daily meetings at Labour HQ - from what I was told then, a lot of this doesn't surprise me. The quote was 'there are some people who support Corbyn, others who don't and then a third faction who are just pouring gasoline and waiting to light the match'
 

Semfry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,951
Also, I struggle to think how the response to a report like this should be more factionalism. In a different political setting, the Labour party could afford not to work with centrists and still exert influence. As things currently stand in the UK, however, that seems like a good way to enjoy irrelevance for another decade.

Fuck whatever this is. Have you seen what these scum have been saying and doing? Half this shit would be a scandal if a Tory was caught saying it (a pretend one, but one nonetheless), let alone the party that's actually supposed to care about minorities and poor people. Even one of the people actively involved in this being in the party past the next few weeks is an embarrassment. The only solution now is

tGmPqBJ.jpg


(or Labour wants to doom itself and can eat my ass)
 

Masquerader

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
1,383
Like any bad relationship, the onus will be on both sides to reunite. Granted that COVID-19 has changed things (and enacted policy that at the start of the year would have proved unthinkable), but at the moment I don't think there is a clear argument to be made that the British public as a whole want a fully left-wing government. Maybe that would be different if Labour's policies had last been put to people in an election that was unrelated to Brexit; maybe it would be different if they had been put to people with a different person as leader of the Labour party; maybe it would be different if the party as a whole ran more smoothly and with greater conformity. At present, though, those seem like unknowns. If I'm wrong on this, and there is polling to suggest that Labour's policies are on the whole more popular than those of the Tories, please let me know! (Edit: In any case, this thread should most likely not turn into another discussion about the last election!)

I understand the frustration that the party is so dysfunctional. But we don't currently have a political situation that can successfully accommodate multiple, smaller left-wing parties. Broad-church parties are therefore a necessity, until that can change.

You're right about a broad movement, but the thing is... The more right-leaning elements want to destroy the left-leaning elements instead of working with them.

This is the problem, the buck stops at them and their sabotage. Attacking hard-working, dedicated, good people was a greater priority to them than 150000 deaths due to Conservative austerity. The centre needs to stop attempting to destroy the left if there is to be an actual attempt to stop the Tories. The first stage is for the centre to do some soul searching and to truly think about who's worse: The left, or the murderers in government.

It starts with the centre changing and accepting blame. Otherwise any unity and reconciliation is literally impossible.
 

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,797
Like, even if you're not to the left of the Labour party - this shit is highly troubling and not how a political party should function. Utter chaos.

Jesus, some of the stuff coming out of this report is painting a really bleak picture about the infighting in Labour.



I'm reading this as Oldknow stating that Karie Murphy believes she orchestrated something, not necessarily that she did orchestrate something.

Might be just my interpretation of how that's been put down on paper though.
 

Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,920
London
Like, even if you're not to the left of the Labour party - this shit is highly troubling and not how a political party should function. Utter chaos.



I'm reading this as Oldknow stating that Karie Murphy believes she orchestrated something, not necessarily that she did orchestrate something.

Might be just my interpretation of how that's been put down on paper though.
True, the quote is weirdly constructed so it could be read either way. It's whatever is in that ellipsis that changes the meaning. If they're two separate sentences then the second is a statement of fact, if they're part of hte same sentence it might be part of what Murphy thinks Oldknow did.
 
OP
OP
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943






"vOtE rEd nO mAtTeR wHO"

Politics are failing the people, the people aren't failing politics (when we're talking about women like the above).
 
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WACCOE-1919

Member
May 9, 2019
247
I thought it was pretty evident how much sections of the labour Party hated Corbyn, but this is truly something else. Battle lines very much drawn within the party, Keir is going have to ask himself some really hard questions, he either represents the membership who voted overwhelmingly for him or face the same fate that all labour leaders have suffered since Blair.
 
OP
OP
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
This should be fairly easy for Starmer, besides loose lips Ashworth, everyone else has moved on to other jobs or left the party.
It's going to be a stupid own goal to bring anyone back in to the party HQ after this.

It's a cultural problem in Labour, as much as it is CTRL-Fing every name in the report and seeing where they are





That's the white moderate centrist for you. Happy to pickup their salary, childish and hateful in the face of anything that might make them pay £8 more a week in tax.

Labour upset about bleeding votes in the North? They're going to be bleeding their minority and core socialist values block next.
 

Punished

Member
Jun 19, 2019
441

This is a pretty mad thread. Reluctance to suspend Rod Liddle because he was a friend of Watson and Ian Austin, kinell. Rod Liddle. He's the guy who ran away and left his wife for a young one.
Anyone who thinks Starmer is going to purge these fuckers is in for a surprise. He's their tribune.
Promoting Oldknow*, as Abbott suggests, would be a good way to demoralise the left further and have people leave probably.

*Spouse of Jon Ashworth?
 
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PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
It's a cultural problem in Labour, as much as it is CTRL-Fing every name in the report and seeing where they are

Every party has the rival groups who hate each others guts, for either personal or ideological reasons, the one good thing about the recent defeat is the amount of twats who left and fucked themselves over to damage Corbyn, it's why i hope people on the left of the party keep it together and focused, this doesn't need to be a repeat of the Kinnock years.

I still remain fairly hopeful on that score for now.

Promoting Oldknow*, as Abbott suggests, would be a good way to demoralise the left further and have people leave probably.

*Spouse of Jon Ashworth?

I hope neither happens, as Ian Lavery points out, the left is in a strong position within the party and leaving a void for these idiots to fill would make the last few years even more depressing, get organised and united and avoid anymore NEC cock ups.
 
OP
OP
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
Every party has the rival groups who hate each others guts, for either personal or ideological reasons, the one good thing about the recent defeat is the amount of twats who left and fucked themselves over to damage Corbyn, it's why i hope people on the left of the party keep it together and focused, this doesn't need to be a repeat of the Kinnock years.

I still remain fairly hopeful on that score for now.

Goodness knows there's been some infighting in the SNP, but actively wishing your party fails? That takes this to a whole new level.
 

Oni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
311
I'll admit I dont know too much about him but I get bad vibes from Starmer...
 

Kay

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,077
This is seriously disgusting.

I dont understand the mindset of them, if they wanted Corbyn to fail then you needed to let him fail on his own terms so that no one can claim that it was due to other things like these shitheads. and if he didn't fail and won, then thats good isnt it?!

Absolute shit heads, I really hope Starmer does something about them.
They were probably more worried about him succeeding.
 

Masquerader

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
1,383
lol, it's traditional for the Labour party.
There was all kinds of shady fuckery going on in the 70's.

True, but I legit don't think it's been this bad since 1929-1931, pfft. This goes beyond even the most partisan of party politics. This is another level IMO to the 1970s infighting. Something worse.