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UK "Herd Immunity" idea came from Dominic Cummings: "if that means some pensioners die, too bad”

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LewieP

LewieP

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Oct 26, 2017
18,093


I looked, but I don't believe this report is online yet (or it could be paywalled), but it's from today's print edition of The Times. It's written by Tim Shipman, their political editor, who is very reliable and very well connected within UK politics.

The damning quote "protect the economy, and if that means some pensioners die, too bad".

This was the UK government's initial strategy until the overwhelming backlash of inviting a national medical disaster upon us forced them to take measures too slow the spread. Initially the plan was to have it happen as quickly as possible and just shrug off the thousands of deaths because at least shops wouldn't have to close.

Those of you not super familiar with uk politics might not know who this unelected ghoul is. He's basically to Boris Johnson what Steve Bannon was to Trump, except he's still around and he's actually making many key decisions.


Noodle said:
I found an un-paywalled copy of the article

www.thegwpf.com

Inside No 10: Ten Days That Shook Britain — And Changed The Nation For Ever - The Global Warming Policy Forum (GWPF)

How Boris Johnson changed his priorities: save lives first, and then salvage the economy There was a moment, when the decisions were made, when they wondered what on earth they had done, how far they had been forced to go. A moment when they sat “shellshocked”, reflecting on choices that will...
www.thegwpf.com
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Tarantism

Member
Nov 8, 2017
361
I think it's still the government's strategy. We aren't doing close to enough to lock everything down.
 
brawndolicious

brawndolicious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,918
I've said this before but a crisis really shows you who is shit and who is a saint.

My guess is that he also thought it was convenient that those with preexisting conditions would be at risk but he decided not to say it out loud.
 

Aegus

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,194
If they had actually done this I would have expected to see Boris' and Dominic's heads on pikes outside Downing Street by the end of 2020.

My faith that the British public would actually take action on something like this is rather low though.
 
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LewieP

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,093
Aegus said:
If they had actually done this I would have expected to see Boris' and Dominic's heads on pikes outside Downing Street by the end of 2020.

My faith that the British public would actually take action on something like this is rather low though.
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They have done this. It was their plan and they put it into action. A great many people will have been exposed by their initial decision to do absolutely nothing.
 
Sign My Guestbook!

Sign My Guestbook!

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May 26, 2018
23,999
Every single day we get a new quote that feels like it came from a post-apocalyptic log of the Before Times. This one as you're crawling around the vine-laden ruins of Parliament. Hold L3 to read.
 
Zampano

Zampano

The Fallen
Dec 3, 2017
2,234
Aegus said:
If they had actually done this I would have expected to see Boris' and Dominic's heads on pikes outside Downing Street by the end of 2020.

My faith that the British public would actually take action on something like this is rather low though.
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The UK would vote them in for another two terms. State of this country.
 
Yōkai_0h-No

Yōkai_0h-No

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Nov 20, 2018
340
Another case of if Labour or any left-wing party had said/done this they would of been crucified - but because it's the Conservatives no one really seems to care.
 
Ruruja

Ruruja

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Oct 25, 2017
4,712
Why does Cummings have so much power? Seen far too much of him the last 12 months.

He seems like a right cunt.
 
FF Seraphim

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,700
Tokyo
So the UK's is basically using a Dolph Lundgren quote from Rocky as their official policy now?


" If he dies, he dies."

Change He to pensioners
 
Jeremy

Jeremy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,639
It's wild that the assholes who don't believe in evolution are rooting for herd immunity to get humanity through this crisis.
 
Palette Swap

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,201
For all this Galaxy Brain approach, UK seems headed to ultimately be going through the same steps most other countries have gone through, except it's two weeks late doing so.
 
Garfield

Garfield

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Oct 31, 2018
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I am not defending him at all, let that be clear.

But until this is all over we simply dont know if he will be right, the choice was let it run rampant and build that immunity, 250k deaths, or go into lock down for 18 months...

The reality is we just dont know what the death toll will be in 18 months, as horrible as it sounds it might be a high number regardless
 

Deleted member 44129

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Garfield said:
I am not defending him at all, let that be clear.

But until this is all over we simply dont know if he will be right, the choice was let it run rampant and build that immunity, 250k deaths, or go into lock down for 18 months...

The reality is we just dont know what the death toll will be in 18 months, as horrible as it sounds it might be a high number regardless
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You're a madman. Learn how to count hospital beds
 

Deleted member 33412

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Herd immunity is still the strategy and the right one, it's just about flattening the curve as well now so the NHS isn't overwhelmed.
 
Cocolina

Cocolina

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Oct 28, 2017
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Tokyo Sexwhale said:
Herd immunity is still the strategy, it's just about flattening the curve as well now.
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immunity in the healthy and protection of the vulnerable isn't a controversial strategy I hope

I think that the potential vaccine will also be much more about protecting the vulnerable than facilitating our immunity anyway, just like the flu vaccine
 
Biggzy

Biggzy

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Oct 27, 2017
2,929
Let's be honest is anyone surprised it is Cummings and the reason was to lessen the impact of the economy?
 
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LewieP

LewieP

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Oct 26, 2017
18,093
Tokyo Sexwhale said:
Herd immunity is still the strategy and the right one, it's just about flattening the curve as well now so the NHS isn't overwhelmed.
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But their strategy was to achieve herd immunity as quickly as possible, doing nothing to slow to the spread of the virus, knowing this would cause thousands of deaths.
 
Guppeth

Guppeth

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Oct 25, 2017
15,805
Sheffield, UK
Garfield said:
I am not defending him at all, let that be clear.

But until this is all over we simply dont know if he will be right, the choice was let it run rampant and build that immunity, 250k deaths, or go into lock down for 18 months...

The reality is we just dont know what the death toll will be in 18 months, as horrible as it sounds it might be a high number regardless
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It will be high in 18 months, because of this government's inaction. They have doomed thousands, and it didn't have to be this way.
 

Deleted member 33412

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Cocolina said:
immunity in the healthy and protection of the vulnerable isn't a controversial strategy I hope

I think that the potential vaccine will also be much more about protecting the vulnerable than facilitating our immunity anyway, just like the flu vaccine
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Yeah absolutely. Lock downs and the whole flattening the curve buys time for the development of treatments and vaccines potentially saving many thousands of lives.
 

itchi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,287
Seems like it's the strategy for most countries keep the number of patients below the number of hospital beds while letting herd immunity build up.
 

amusix

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Oct 29, 2017
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herd immunity is how this will be eventually overcome....but it should not be raced towards.
 
asd202

asd202

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Oct 27, 2017
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I mean yeah that was obviously the point of the herd immunity strategy - save the economy first and foremost and if people die they die, should be better in the second wave. While rest of the world would be in recession UK would remain steady.
 

Deleted member 442

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Oct 25, 2017
2,431
Tim Shipman is deep in the Rupert Murdoch camp, I would take this as a lead in to Cummings being dropped to keep Johnson afloat in the next few days.

-edit-

Adding some context



A story like this doesn't turn up in the Times without coordination. This is what it looks like when someone gets chucked out from the inner circle.
 
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davidnolan13

davidnolan13

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,540
north east uk
Pensioners are the biggest cost to the benefits system and we all know what Tories think of people on benefits. If they can remove some they will and this time they could just say it wasn't us it was the virus.
 
Oregano

Oregano

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Oct 25, 2017
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Guy's obviously a sociopath but as grim at it is there's an undeniable pragmatic logic behind it.

When scientists are now suggesting that the entire world doesn't leave their houses for months/a year+ on end unless for essential supplies then there's going to be questions about what kind of impact that will have on society going forward, how will be people be affected psychologically, what impact will the education gap have, etc.

Basically we're kind of screwed either way by the sound of it but at least we can probably say we picked the route that requires the most sacrifice for the sake of others. Humanity maybe isn't so bad after all...
 
Mindwipe

Mindwipe

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Oct 25, 2017
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Worth saying that Number 10 officially denies this ever happened, rather than the usual silence.

And that The Times is fucking terrible now, so it being reported there adds little credibility.
 
Ruddles

Ruddles

Member
Oct 17, 2018
349
Oregano said:
Guy's obviously a sociopath but as grim at it is there's an undeniable pragmatic logic behind it.

When scientists are now suggesting that the entire world doesn't leave their houses for months/a year+ on end unless for essential supplies then there's going to be questions about what kind of impact that will have on society going forward, how will be people be affected psychologically, what impact will the education gap have, etc.

Basically we're kind of screwed either way by the sound of it but at least we can probably say we picked the route that requires the most sacrifice for the sake of others. Humanity maybe isn't so bad after all...
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This is important. There's good evidence people will ignore social distancing and lockdowns anyway. We're in WEEK ONE of a partial lockdown in the U.K. and already...

www.theguardian.com

'Disaster waiting to happen': visitors flock to Skegness

Seaside town busy in spite of official guidance to stay at home to curb the spread of Covid-19
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

I know we all want lockdown to work, but one of the original U.K. objections was that it was dangerous to go into lockdown too early because people wouldn't maintain it. To be clear, I think Cummings is a sadistic madman, and we HAVE to try, but I see no chance of the lockdown holding for 12 weeks, let alone all year. People are idiots.
 

Deleted member 26591

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,295
amanset said:
We still don't know if getting infected protects (or even stops) you getting infected again and there is no vaccine.

So herd immunity is pretty much impossible to get.
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Even the experts are saying it's too early to say about immunity. They can only estimate based on other corona virus types, and some of those immunity only lasts three months, even for the same strain. And then there are minor mutations that cause new sweeps. I was listening to the TWiV podcast yesterday though, and they're saying research is suggesting the major mutation for this has already happened and there are unlikely to be large scale mutations again; corona viruses tend to mutate but become LESS lethal, in order to maximise spread.

Also there is increasing evidence that people recovering from this come out with lung damage; even minor. That, however, sets them up for trouble should there be a secondary infection in say a year, because obviously that then becomes a co-mordibity leaving them far more vulnerable.

(I mean, coming out of ICU)
 
Serebii

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Oct 24, 2017
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Ruddles said:
I know we all want lockdown to work, but one of the original U.K. objections was that it was dangerous to go into lockdown too early because people wouldn't maintain it. To be clear, I think Cummings is a sadistic madman, and we HAVE to try, but I see no chance of the lockdown holding for 12 weeks, let alone all year. People are idiots.
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From the looks of it, we'll have month-on, month-off lockdown where possible. Think that's what I read in the guidance they put out
 
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