Just shameful. I'm really glad that this election has opened so many people's eyes as to how biased they are.
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UK General Election 12th December 2019 |OT1| Hindsight is 20/19 (Tory majority confirmed)
- Thread starter Uzzy
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Just shameful. I'm really glad that this election has opened so many people's eyes as to how biased they are.
It doesn't matter who the leader is when the media will do their best to ruin anybody that flirts with being left wing.
I'm saying without Corbyn it would have been a cakewalk for Labour.
This specifical election is a one topic thing. No one cares how left or center Labour stands, people care for their stand on Brexit. And the wallowing and avoidance of a clean backing of remain is due to Corbyn, in my opinion.
That's just a lie.
Miliband's average rating in November 2014 was -51%. Clegg's average rating in June 2014 was -58%. Both worse than Corbyn.
Corbyn gained the most votes and the most percentage points out of all Labour leaders in 2017.
There's no single unifying person, either real or theoretical, who could be storming to a landslide against the Tories in this election. Half the country still want Brexit, and will largely vote for the Tories due to that.
So you are saying, that his likeability polling, being the worst ever for a opposition leader, plays no role in elections? Come on.
Labour can't win with just remain, they have to be able to appeal and not alienate their northern voters. Going full throttle remain would be a bad decision.
Edit: I do agree though that someone who doesn't have the baggage of Corbyn would do a bit better, they would be more easier to sell on the doorstep.
I don't agree with much of your points here but just for the brexit talk: a clear backing of remain would have destroyed Labour's electoral chances.
yeah def wouldnt have been a cakewalk, however they could be doing better in the polls with someone a bit stronger. His lack of action or communication in the anti-simitism malarkey has been very disappointing.
Labour have mopped up the Remain vote. It's Leave voters who they need to attract back.
Swinson and the Lib Dem's going pure Remain have already tanked miserably because it's a terrible strategy. If Labour had gone all out remain, they really would be nowhere.
As I said in my previous post, this is a lie. Please stop repeating it.
I'm sure his approval rating would be even higher if he just said Bollocks to Brexit and Revoke A50 right...
Going by the latest polls, LibDems (even with Swinson) poll around 13,5% after getting around 7,5% in the last GE. I would not call this mopping up the remain vote.
And just to make myself clear, I mean a strong Remain backing not just in this election, but over the last years. The message coming from Labour/Corbyn was simply muddied.
The problem is that it's a lot easier for the right wing media to throw shit at Corbyn and have it stick. Those attack lines about him being soft on terror and evil foreign regimes work because there is a kernel of truth to them. He has been awkwardly sympathetic to the IRA and Hamas, refused to endorse shooting terrorists dead during an attack, defended tyrannic regimes in Iran, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, taken money to appear on Press TV and Russia Today etc. The antisemitism stuff sticks because he has been soft and sluggish to deal with it. It took so long to throw out an obvious antisemite like his old mate Ken Livingstone that he eventually just left the party of his own accord after 2 years of waiting to be expelled.
In terms of policies Corbyn is doing well despite recently promising some absurd and undeliverable things, but as a leader he is holding the party back in this GE. Nobody can deny that.
It was always going to be a massive challenge for Labour to get into power again after being in charge for two disastrous wars and a financial crisis and having to fight against the will of Murdoch, the Rothemeres etc, but it's clear that Corbyn is not seen as a credible PM by the general public. His personality, his opinions and his portrayal by the media have all played their part in that.
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And a good chunk of the remain vote is free market type conservatives/liberals who wouldn't vote Labour under virtually any circumstances. the idea there is a simple spot on the political spectrum for labour to sit and mop up all the votes they need just seems weird to me.
That's not what your saying, what your actually saying is pure fantasy. There's a 50% cap on their potential with the majority of constituencies in the UK voting leave. The remain vote is also split among 5 years while the leave vote is split amongst 2 parties in partnership.
It is pure fantasy to believe any Labour leader would have a cake walk in this election and that's even ignoring media bias.
Not surprised much, a better team of advisers managed to avoid this with may in 2017. It's bad,bad politicking. Not even trump goes this hard into it.
This team is worse then May's.
We have already had demonstrable evidence that no, this election is no longer a single issue topic and hasn't been for a while. The NHS ties with Brexit being the most important, with the environment quickly coming up behind it. The talking points the cons wanted are not part of the discourse of the election.
For all the backing of remain, the lib dems have all but imploded with this tactic in less then a month.
As I said in my previous post, this is a lie. Please stop repeating it.
I'm sure his approval rating would be even higher if he just said Bollocks to Brexit and Revoke A50 right...
Come on, it makes no sense to look at just a subset of the electorate when judging approval numbers. I read them here:
They look terrible.
don't see how that can be the case when the yougov MRP shows that labour are losing seats en mass in leave voting areas where people are angry that labour now supports a second referendum
whereas in remain areas like Canterbury the MRP shows labour holding a very marginal seat due to remain voters getting behind labour because they are pro-second referendum
that's not a problem that can be solved by being more cleanly remain
corbyn's unpopularity with swing voters is a real issue but it's motivated reasoning for remainers who want to remain to decide that the reason labour is failing is because it wasn't remain enough
Nah, I was annoyed by the umming and aahing over the Labour Brexit position but this is nonsense.
If they went full on remain from day one then they'd have been wrecked in a bunch of traditional Labour areas who voted Leave in the referendum and there aren't enough centrists/Neoliberals willing to toss aside the Lib Dems and Tories in order to vote for a left wing Labour leader no matter how much they campaign for remain.
Imagine believing things are this simple.
Just imagine the utter lack of thought required to reach these conclusions.
The Lib Dems tried to be that spot and failed spectacularly because you can't convincingly campaign on it. They couldn't even make substantial inroads on remain voting conservatives (and the lib Dems basically are conservatives) what chances do Labour have.
I think it's pretty obvious why Labour haven't emphasised their stance on Brexit.
The Conservatives have a much stronger argument. They already have a deal (albeit a weak one) ready to go and will push forward no matter what. Labour's policy requires more words, and they don't have any ammunition aside from preaching to the choir.
The party is much better positioned to focus on their policies. A lot of their policies benefit exactly the leave-voting demographic. It is a far better strategy to highlight how voting Labour will improve your quality of life rather than reminding you once again that "we're not giving you your Brexit."
The Conservatives have a much stronger argument. They already have a deal (albeit a weak one) ready to go and will push forward no matter what. Labour's policy requires more words, and they don't have any ammunition aside from preaching to the choir.
The party is much better positioned to focus on their policies. A lot of their policies benefit exactly the leave-voting demographic. It is a far better strategy to highlight how voting Labour will improve your quality of life rather than reminding you once again that "we're not giving you your Brexit."
the frustrating thing with Corbyn and Brexit is that you could see where he would roughly end up a year before he got there, all the back and forth over the wording/referendums etc got really annoying.
Nah. Without Corbyn the press would just find another boogeyman element in whoever they chose.
Labour could have actual Jesus Christ leading them, and the Mail would run with "Prostititute loving Socialist cures lepers with YOUR tax money"
i count one remain seat (kensington), the rest are areas with significant leave votes. don't understand how labour could have stopped this on a more clearly remain ticket.
Stroud also voted Remain at least.
Pretty much they're current strategy is to attempt to turn the Conservatives Brexit deal into a poison chalice via the NHS and focus on investing in the communities.
The snag is a lot labour voters want Brexit of any kind because they dislike immigration of any kind and there's nothing labour has to combat that because there's really not enough time to change people views on immigration despite current attempts.
ah you are right! i confused it with the old ukip target of rochester and strood
Ah wrexham going conservative lol the place with a fuck ton of workers who work at airbus. The EU company. That will go well for them /s
It's a similar situation when it comes to the referendum itself really. A simple argument and position, however dumb and misinformed it is, is an easy enough sell if it already has some purchase with people. Hence, 'Get Brexit Done' being the slogan they are sticking to at all costs. Short, snappy, decisive. Meaningless, but short, snappy, and decisive all the same.
I think Labour have got the vast majority of the remain vote now, they have taken pretty much all the Remain voters that will ever vote Labour without completely alienating the Leave vote.
You're the person saying Labour should have gone hard remain for the last 3 years. Surely looking at only remain voters is therefore the reasonable subset to look at.
Are you suggesting that if Labour went hard remain, then there would be lots of the leave voters loving their leader?
Is there a politician with good approval ratings in the last decade? As I said, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband both had worse approval ratings, and I imagine are the exact type of politicians you are suggesting would be doing a better job. Not only that, but if you are advocating hard remain, then why does Corbyn have a better approval rating amongst remainers than Jo "Revoke A50" Swinson?!?!?!
I don't think Wrexham will go conservative, I think a lot of Welsh communities are starting to wise up to the fact Brexit was a con and the conservatives don't give a shit about them.
Lib Dems are currently in free fall the latest survation poll has then at 11% after a 4 point swing.
Over half of the country would vote Remain in a second referendum according to the same polls that say Labour are polling in the low to mid 30s in Westminster voting intent. They're certainly getting more of it by the day, but it's a bit dubious to say they've mopped it up. I also think people overstate the Lib Dem implosion on this front: the squeeze is the effect of FPTP more than anything.
I'm feeling increasingly pessimistic about our chances of a good result from this election. I can't imagine how those of us who are poorest or living with disabilities or are people of colour must be feeling about it all.
A lot of the poorest will be voting conservative which will never not be ridiculous to me
Anyone who thinks the party would be doing amazing without Corbyn just needs to look back at how Milliband did. A completely inoffensive candidate did worse than the unelectable Corbyn when Party lines were still clearer without the Brexit problem
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My wife is extremely upset, she's disabled and we've had to fight tooth and nail to get her the benefits she currently has. I'm personally fearful of medication shortages due to Brexit and the NHS becoming Trumps'.
My friend who's an EU migrant has a baby but isn't married, and is worried about employment, already his friends who are also EU migrants are finding it harder to get employment in the UK due to Brexit.
Part of the reason I didn't vote Labour in 2015 was because Miliband's Labour didn't feel enough of a difference to the Conservatives. They were too 'centre' for me. So I ended up going Green to try and endorse the left-wing policies they were advocating.
Not that my vote would've made a difference in 2015, but part of my regrets not going Labour back then just because of everything that came after that election.
Yes and there's 5 remain parties and two allied Brexit parties. Getting 50 percent of the remain vote is impossible as it requires wiping out the SNP, PC, Lib Dems and greens to get it. I shouldn't have to tell you how hard such a scenario is.
That's the problem with going all remain. It's an inherently poor choice that puts you in a crippling back foot.
Could a more nimble and talented communicator sell Labours position better? Almost certainly, they'd have been better going to that position earlier as well.
Labour have a fundamental issue outside of Brexit. Their traditional Northern support is socially conservative and their urban support is socially liberal, that fracture is far too easy to exploit with someone like Corbyn. Corbyn's biggest issue in terms of popularity isn't Brexit, or even a combination of his positioning on stuff that the midlands and North of England just don't like (Trident, Republicanism, the whole anti-semitic thing, the 'lack' of patroitism), Corbyn's biggest issue is that he's simply not seen as a strong competent leader.
Labour have a fundamental issue outside of Brexit. Their traditional Northern support is socially conservative and their urban support is socially liberal, that fracture is far too easy to exploit with someone like Corbyn. Corbyn's biggest issue in terms of popularity isn't Brexit, or even a combination of his positioning on stuff that the midlands and North of England just don't like (Trident, Republicanism, the whole anti-semitic thing, the 'lack' of patroitism), Corbyn's biggest issue is that he's simply not seen as a strong competent leader.
agree, it's silly to say they've mopped up when the tories have 70% of leave voters and labour are just under 50% of remain at the tail end of the campaign .
(also think you are right about FPTP and the lib dems , though their strategy hasn't helped them either)
the problem really is that there's a fundamental asymmetry -
a) tory voting remainers (20% of remain voters) are much more likely to accept the result and think boris's deal is a good compromise that allows us to get on with it. whereas labour leavers are incredibly frustrated that the referendum result hasn't been delivered and their vote is being ignored and no longer trust any promises.
b) leave have a big advantage under FPTP as there are more leave seats than remain seats as remainers tend to congregate in cities leading to remain seats being incredibly remain whereas the leave vote is more spread out (223 seats voted remain compared to over 400 voting leave)
Nah, I could believe this before but under current conditions you'd be hard pressed to convince people of this position now.
If people truly cared about a strong competent leaders in their candidates Boris Johnson wouldn't be remaining steady at 40%. This sounds more like something political analysts tell themselves because they consider the average person logical analytical beings when that couldn't be further from the truth.
I think Wrexham will flip. Only about 1500 in it last time, big leave vote and a big polish community which the locals hate
Will probably depend on the brexit party arithmetic that and youth turnout.
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