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UK General Election 12th December 2019 |OT1| Hindsight is 20/19 (Tory majority confirmed)

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Rodelero

Rodelero

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Oct 27, 2017
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danowat said:
The handwaving of Labour antisemitism in this thread makes me deeply uncomfortable, you've got the chief rabbi, the archbishop, and a large percentage of the Jewish community saying there is a problem, yet people are happy to discount it as media bias?
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The discrepancy between how it is highlighted by the media and how racism/islamaphobia are highlighted in the media are clear examples of media bias. I don't discount that there have and still are issues surrounding anti-Semitism, but there is something seriously fucked up about how much attention it gets relative to what seem to me to be bigger, more blatant issues affecting much larger groups.

It's not just that. It's also that it's flagrantly problematic that the Chief Rabbi is actively advocating for Boris Johnson who is a racist as an alternative to someone he is accusing of being racist. If this was in anyway legitimate he would attack both - but he doesn't, because he's a partisan who is making a politically timed attack to influence the election.

Our Prime Minister:

1) Has mocked the way that Muslim women dress
2) Has mocked the stereotypical appearance of Black people
3) Has said that he reacted with fear and ran away from a group of black men in a "pathetic turn of pace"

danowat said:
By whom?

I get your point, but the Cons have been taken to task, maybe not quite a vehemently by the media, about Islamophobia
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Oh.

I just typed out a whole response to you as if you were discussing in good faith. Whoops.
 
Plum

Plum

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danowat said:
By whom?

I get your point, but the Cons have been taken to task, maybe not quite a vehemently by the media, about Islamophobia.
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Come on now, this is blatantly untrue and you know it.

Nothing has been done about the policies that the Tories have used to harm BAME people, disabled/poor people, and many other minority groups and even less has been done about the racist, ableist, etc rhetoric that Tory members including the Prime Minister himself. have spouted over the years. If the media were to 'take them to task' then, frankly, they wouldn't have room for any other programming.

EDIT: Telling people to "carry on," won't reduce the quotes lol
 

Deleted member 8463

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Mirvis spent years lobbying for Israel, literally wrote an article in the Times advocating Israeli war crimes in 2014 and is a vocal tory. Labour just announced that they would cease arms sales to Israel and recognise the state of Palestine. It's not rocket science.
 
PJV3

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I think it would help the anti-semitism debate if the response was proportional and conservatives hating the idea of Corbyn didn't get mixed up in it. There's a problem but i honestly don't know how bad it is compared to the other parties and would like some kind of independent body look into the parties. A conservative Rabbi goes into the same bracket as the Tax-payers alliance as far as i'm concerened.
 

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danowat said:
By whom?

I get your point, but the Cons have been taken to task, maybe not quite a vehemently by the media, about Islamophobia.
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They have fucking NOT. At all.

To even suggest so is treading on extremely weak ground.

Also, Beefy is too good for this thread.

Calls out rank bullshit when he sees it and the usual suspects run in once more to silence him.

The rabbi siding with the cons is up there in the bullshit, but reading his comments when bojo became leader I'm not shocked at all.
 
danowat

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My last word on it, the words I used in a previous post were wrong, I didn't vocalise myself in the way I wanted to.
 
Plum

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Ando said:
one of the sad things about how inadequate our media is at tackling racism overall is that the perceived unfairness of jewish leaders rightfully standing up for their constituents interests becomes seen as them personally ignoring other victims of racism. you wouldn't ask a breast cancer charity to spend its time talking about dementia because they both kill.
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This is a terrible analogy.

That is unless you can show me a breast cancer charity (or, more specifically, prominent figures within a breast cancer charity) who actively support organisations that aim to reduce dementia research funding and deny help to dementia sufferers despite knowing that "they both kill."
 
RellikSK

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Nov 1, 2017
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Labour has a clear problem with anti-semetism, Labour have been slow to act, this has resulted rightly in a lot of Jews not trusting the Labour party, however I really fail to see how Jeremy Corbyn is a threat to British Jews, like what policy of his are they afraid of?
You then compare this to the concerns of many from a Afro-Carribean background and how the media treats that. The Windrush scandal proves that their way of life is at risk. I don't see any policy that Labour is advocating for that will result in the deportation of British Jews like the Conservatives have done with black people.

Two things can be true:
1) Labour has a problem with antisemetism and has failed to deal with it.
2) The media has cynically weaponised it in a way that they would never do to the conservative party.
 

Deleted member 38573

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Of course there's bigotry in a political party that's half a million members strong. Left wing/right wing, we haven't forgotten what country we're living in. But when there's been independent inquiries into this and a YouGov barometer on AS, neither of which has "cleared" Labour but points out that it is no more prevalent within the party than the rest of the country, all you can do is look at the media a little suspect. Especially given how outlandish the bigotry within other parties have been. Especially given how the current gov. and the coalition have implemented policies that have disproportionately harmed PoC.

Labour were very slow to act on cases of AS. But they've made plenty of systemic changes within their party to deal with the reality of having an open membership.
 
ronpontelle

ronpontelle

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solidussnaku said:
They have fucking NOT. At all.

To even suggest so is treading on extremely weak ground.

Also, Beefy is too good for this thread.

Calls out rank bullshit when he sees it and the usual suspects run in once more to silence him.

The rabbi siding with the cons is up there in the bullshit, but reading his comments when bojo became leader I'm not shocked at all.
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I'm not trying to silence anybody. I just think saying "white Jewish people" was wrong when a handful of white Jews in media have accused Corbyn.

Not bigging up the Tories, not saying there's not a media agenda, not saying Windrush isn't worse etc etc.
 

Zappy

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Beefy said:
Both ahould be attacked equally yet it never is. The only reason antisemitism is seen bigger thing is because it effects white people. Were as Windrush is forgotten about by the majority after a few weeks despite people dying.

This not me saying don't call antisemitism out loudly. This is me saying racism against black/muslims isn't cared about as much.
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There is honestly a difference between May's"hostile environment" that led to windrush and Labour's anti-semitism.

The hostile environment was not targeted at any particular group of people - just anyone who didn't have permanent leave to remain. It was a deeply unpleasant and abhorrent policy BUT whilst the effects of it, disproportionately targeted people from the Caribbean it was meant to be as awful to loads of different nationalities and origins. Was it racist by design? No. That doesn't mean it wasn't worse. Just that it was a policy of nationalism and xenophobia. But it could easily have been any nationality or colour of people who experienced the fall out (apart from British people of course).

The difference with Labour is this - we have heard that people who are Jewish no longer feel able to be in the party. Because they are Jewish. The language used has been targeted at Jewish people. Its not policy or planned. But it is racism because the "abuse" is only directed towards Jewish people because they are Jews.

Boris' comments aimed at Muslims - are racist - because again his comments are deliberate and targeted at Muslims. The sad thing is that his supporters, especially in crucial Northern and Midlands seats often are racist against Muslims - so he's playing to his base. Even if the BBC and others made a big thing about this it would probably increase his popularity.
 
PJV3

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How did i miss the DUP possibly supporting a minority Labour government(- Corbyn), That's just how daft our politics is at the moment, the LibDem disease is spreading.
 

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ronpontelle said:
I'm not trying to silence anybody. I just think saying "white Jewish people" was wrong when a handful of white Jews in media have accused Corbyn.

Not bigging up the Tories, not saying there's not a media agenda, not saying Windrush isn't worse etc etc.
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You read my post how you thought I wrote it. Yet I have since said I didn't say it as "all". I do the same for everything and hardly ever use some.
 
Garfield

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The reaction of this thread over the main story on the BBC from this RabbI goes to show Corbyn can not shake it. No point people trying to debunk this rabbi on Twitter the damage is done.

Corbyn is a racist. Just ask Racheal Riley. /s

I don't understand what makes you anti Semitic and it gives me a headache researching it, so I will remain blissfully unaware
 

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Zappy said:
There is honestly a difference between May's"hostile environment" that led to windrush and Labour's anti-semitism.

The hostile environment was not targeted at any particular group of people - just anyone who didn't have permanent leave to remain. It was a deeply unpleasant and abhorrent policy BUT whilst the effects of it, disproportionately targeted people from the Caribbean it was meant to be as awful to loads of different nationalities and origins. Was it racist by design? No. That doesn't mean it wasn't worse. Just that it was a policy of nationalism and xenophobia. But it could easily have been any nationality or colour of people who experienced the fall out (apart from British people of course).

The difference with Labour is this - we have heard that people who are Jewish no longer feel able to be in the party. Because they are Jewish. The language used has been targeted at Jewish people. Its not policy or planned. But it is racism because the "abuse" is only directed towards Jewish people because they are Jews.

Boris' comments aimed at Muslims - are racist - because again his comments are deliberate and targeted at Muslims. The sad thing is that his supporters, especially in crucial Northern and Midlands seats often are racist against Muslims - so he's playing to his base. Even if the BBC and others made a big thing about this it would probably increase his popularity.
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Don't agree with you at all in Windrush I believe it was very much a racist policy from the start and targeted my people.

As a non practicing rasta muslim I have seen and heard Boris say I have a water melon smile and other bigoted shit. Then you have the Islamophobia as well.

What I am getting at is when dealing with bigotry it should be condemned equally, but it never is.
 
SMD

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This is an incredibly dangerous revisionist view of how the Tories targeted minorities.

Zappy said:
The hostile environment was not targeted at any particular group of people - just anyone who didn't have permanent leave to remain.
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A simple review of the facts proves this is not true. Theresa May, as one of her first acts as Home Secretary destroyed the information she would then require the Windrush generation to provide as proof: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...troyed-windrush-landing-cards-says-ex-staffer

The Tories' policies don't have unintended results, their extremism is always by design.

Never vote Tory.
 

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Zappy said:
There is honestly a difference between May's"hostile environment" that led to windrush and Labour's anti-semitism.

The hostile environment was not targeted at any particular group of people - just anyone who didn't have permanent leave to remain. It was a deeply unpleasant and abhorrent policy BUT whilst the effects of it, disproportionately targeted people from the Caribbean it was meant to be as awful to loads of different nationalities and origins. Was it racist by design? No. That doesn't mean it wasn't worse. Just that it was a policy of nationalism and xenophobia. But it could easily have been any nationality or colour of people who experienced the fall out (apart from British people of course).

The difference with Labour is this - we have heard that people who are Jewish no longer feel able to be in the party. Because they are Jewish. The language used has been targeted at Jewish people. Its not policy or planned. But it is racism because the "abuse" is only directed towards Jewish people because they are Jews.

Boris' comments aimed at Muslims - are racist - because again his comments are deliberate and targeted at Muslims. The sad thing is that his supporters, especially in crucial Northern and Midlands seats often are racist against Muslims - so he's playing to his base. Even if the BBC and others made a big thing about this it would probably increase his popularity.
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"Was it racist by design? No"

May's 'go home vans' literally used a slogan from the National Front.
 

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The Home Affrairs Committee did research not that long ago - Oct 2016 - on antisemitism generally and within parties. They found 12% of Britons had attitudes that could be considered antisemitic and 1 in 20 Britons clearly antisemitic. There was zero empirical evidence to suggest that Labour had a problem with antisemitism that other parties did not. I don't think they've handled it well tbh, and any racism is too much racism. There is clearly a line between anti-zionism and antisemitism that many Labour supporters violate, but I don't think it's endemic of a problem within the party, just our society.
 
JediTimeBoy

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I'm trying to think of a word to describe a person who hates everyone different from them, including colour, creed, disability and class...and the only word I can think of, is Tory...
 
*Splinter

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Beefy said:
By you yes
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Beefy I agree with pretty much everything you say in this thread, including most of what you've said on this topic, but you shouldn't have said that. Just replace "white Jews" with "black people" and see how it looks:
It's like black people don't give a shit about antisemitism.
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Notice I didn't say all black people either.
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I know you aren't an antisemite, but you walked right into the trap set by this "Labour is antisemitic" narrative, and those comments aren't worth defending.
 

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*Splinter said:
Beefy I agree with pretty much everything you say in this thread, including most of what you've said on this topic, but you shouldn't have said that. Just replace "white Jews" with "black people" and see how it looks:


I know you aren't an antisemite, but you walked right into the trap set by this "Labour is antisemitic" narrative, and those comments aren't worth defending.
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Read my other posts

If you are a black person that isn't a antisemite then comments don't apply to you. So it does you no harm.

Like when I say white people have a Tory problem. If that doesn't apply to you, no need to get mad by it.

I have always gone with the if it doesn't effect you (as long as it isn't a racist trope) then it means you aren't part of the problem.
 
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ronpontelle

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PJV3 said:
I'm trying to think of the power dynamic where Corbyn leads the party and sets the policy but someone like Thornberry sits in number 10, he will still pull the strings so they will want him out of that job as well? all for a "possibly" support that i wouldn't count on to last 6 months.
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That's the thing isn't it? Labour don't really behind a figurehead. Yet the policies of Corbyn will still be there.

What about John McDonnell then? Or anybody who ever sat down at a table with someone from Sinn Fein in the 70s/80s?

I mean I can understand the DUP saying they won't deal with Corbyn because of what they stand for, but the premise that if Corbyn magically isn't the leader they're on board is just bollocks.
 

Zappy

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SMD said:
This is an incredibly dangerous revisionist view of how the Tories targeted minorities.




A simple review of the facts proves this is not true. Theresa May, as one of her first acts as Home Secretary destroyed the information she would then require the Windrush generation to provide as proof: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...troyed-windrush-landing-cards-says-ex-staffer

The Tories' policies don't have unintended results, their extremism is always by design.

Never vote Tory.
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As far as I know the cards were destroyed on moving offices. And the decision to destroy them was made in 2009 when Labour were in government. And the home secretary at the time, Alan Johnson said it was "purely a border agency admin decision".

There is no evidence that May, who became home secretary a year later when the cards were destroyed knew it was happening.


So I think perhaps an accidental chain of events. The policy was completely abhorrent but I think anyone who thinks May had a dastardly plot to destroy the cards and send the windrush generation home - is somewhat stretching the truth.
 
Xun

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ruttyboy said:
Take heart, look at the numbers for voter registration yesterday! Link

Another 360,000 people, of which 264k (73%) were under 35! 150k (42%) under 25!!!

This is significant, no way the polls are reflecting this.

EDIT: Also, there are 10,000 people on the site now, at 8AM!
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It's great to see at the very least, but I still struggle to remain positive.

We shall see.

Gareth said:
Hopefully Labour will continue to close the gap, if they can get their vote out we just might be able to avoid a Tory majority...
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I very much doubt that after todays headline story unfortunately.

His Majesty said:
Are there any examples of anti-semite comments made by Corbyn personally?
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Not at all.


There is an issue with anti-semitism within the Labour party, but I don't think it helps matters that he (rightfully) supports Palestine.
 
Zvonimir Boban

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DeadJoshWalking said:
There aren't any, but he's shared a stage with various Hamas members while campaigning for palestinian rights over the years. So there's no doubt that he has a lot of anti-semite supporters around this country and others.
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Mate if we're going down the "He or she has some racist or anti-semitic supporters" then oh boy, good luck finding anybody to vote for.
 

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iapetus

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Beefy said:
Like when I say white people have a Tory problem. If that doesn't apply to you, no need to get mad by it.

I have always gone with the if it doesn't effect you (as long as it isn't a racist trope) then it means you aren't part of the problem.
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And yet so many people do get mad, and it's easier to avoid that by saying "a lot of white people have a Tory problem" than end up going through the same cycle again and again. And I know and understand what you'd say in response to that and obviously it's true to a greater or lesser extent, but I just don't get why people don't take the pragmatic approach on this one more often.
 
PJV3

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May's hostile environment is far more nasty than the slow response of Corbyn, it highlights all the crocodile tears nicely.
It's easy to forget when you get bombarded with stuff.
 
SMD

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Zappy said:
As far as I know the cards were destroyed on moving offices. And the decision to destroy them was made in 2009 when Labour were in government. And the home secretary at the time, Alan Johnson said it was "purely a border agency admin decision".

There is no evidence that May, who became home secretary a year later when the cards were destroyed knew it was happening.


So I think perhaps an accidental chain of events. The policy was completely abhorrent but I think anyone who thinks May had a dastardly plot to destroy the cards and send the windrush generation home - is somewhat stretching the truth.
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See, it's this kind of shit that permeates through the UK that makes it really difficult for BAME to feel like they're being heard.

The UK Border Agency isn't a body that is especially known for its fairness towards minorities and immigrants. They don't function in a vacuum. The Tories have a long history of racist, xenophobic policies and a shit attitude towards minorities and the vulnerable.

The constant benefit of the doubt to the Tories, especially people like May and Johnson who time and again have proven their hateful ideology, while holding the Left to far higher standards under the guise of "we have to be better" is bullshit.

It's been known for decades that government agencies act on the basis of plausible deniability for this very reason.
 
JonnyDBrit

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PJV3 said:
How did i miss the DUP possibly supporting a minority Labour government(- Corbyn), That's just how daft our politics is at the moment, the LibDem disease is spreading.
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The thing is that the Tories, and Boris in particular, have shown their willing disregard for the Northern Irish unionists. The DUP knows that if returned to power with a majority the Tories will immediately use that to fuck the DUP over. So it makes some sense if their preferable option turns to Labour, even if they try to cover it with the usual 'but not under Corbyn!' rhetoric.
 
Gareth

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Xun said:
I very much doubt that after todays headline story unfortunately.
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Politically speaking it'll be interesting to see what impact it has, if it puts a substantial number of potential Labour voters off or if the public have already largely made their minds up one way or another on Labour antisemitism over the past couple of years.
 
DeadJoshWalking

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JediTimeBoy said:
What do you mean by "no doubt" and "a lot" ?

Or were you being sarcastic?
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There are communities in the UK that hate Israel and conflate that into hating Jewish people (as Lisa Forbes discovered in Peterborough), due to the exact same ignorance and fear that Farage uses to stir up hatred of Muslims in Kent. It is inevitable that these pockets of racists will see a Corbyn win as a win for Palestine and as a win for their personal beliefs in the same way that Brexit has enabled hate groups.

#NeverCorbyn frustrates me because it's targeted at the wrong people, and I think it's actually made the situation far worse by lumping Corbyn supporters in with hate groups, that has had the affect of legitimising some of the actual anti-semites in the party because they can say things that are clearly true such as 'JC is not racist', and then follow it up with 'this is a zionist conspiracy'.


The concern is real, the campaign is misguided, the outcome (5 more years of Boris) is terrible for everyone involved.
 
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