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Oct 26, 2017
6,261
Basically what people in here are saying is Lib MPs wanted to keep their jobs way more than wanting to stop austerity. When they knew people would suffer/die from it, that makes them so much better right...

The annoying thing about the deferral that they had to vote with the tories in government, is that the LDs really didn't appreciate the power they had in that coalition. They didn't have to vote with anything. They even changed the rules - the FTPA was implemented to stop the coalition being dissolved on a whim, basically to protect the LDs in the coalition. Look how the DUP swung their dicks around.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
Keep in mind Jo Swinson is now running on cancelling Brexit. After being someone who wanted to give the people a vote on in/out, to which the people got and voted out, it's now about cancelling it. Not doing a people's vote to essentially re-ask the question, cancelling it.

A promise which she probably can't deliver through the commons anyway, even if the Lib Dems won. Whereas a people's vote is something that could be obtainable, which could lead to stopping Brexit with a mandate for it. Not just a single leader going "I'll cancel Brexit, day 1!".

She's a careerist and an opportunist making things up she knows she's never going to need to deliver on, but all of this will benefit her career.

All playing into a massive issue people having with trusting Jo Swinson. She's the female Chuka. A car to be rented.

But she always wanted to stay in. Regardless of her party having a policy of letting people have a say (though that was caveated) she was always in a party that wanted to stay.

Her position hasn't changed on the EU - other than she has committed the LDs to being out and out remain no 2nd ref.

Corbyn - what principle does he have on the EU? He was a hardline Brexiteer for his whole career, then a lukewarm remainer, now god only knows.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
¿Whats Labour"s position on Brexit?

Depends what day of the week you ask...

Negotiate a new Brexit deal. Then have a 2nd in out referendum.

They won't say what they'd campaign for - remain or Brexit.

Its a great policy. Negotiate a new Brexit deal but then possibly campaign against it. Or negotiate a new Brexit deal and be a Brexit party. Nobody knows. Because Corbyn won't decide. In effect it annoys remainers and Brexiteers equally.
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
Yeah austerity destroyed were I lived in London and Windrush destroyed families close to mine.
I worked in the tribunal service for social security benefits with the MOJ. After being through the system myself with ESA.

The shit I saw on a daily basis clerking those tribunals. It's worse than when I worked in vetting for Disclosure Scotland(CRB for here) because it was first hand, not court papers.
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
But she always wanted to stay in. Regardless of her party having a policy of letting people have a say (though that was caveated) she was always in a party that wanted to stay.

Her position hasn't changed on the EU - other than she has committed the LDs to being out and out remain no 2nd ref.

Corbyn - what principle does he have on the EU? He was a hardline Brexiteer for his whole career, then a lukewarm remainer, now god only knows.

The hypocrisy of Swinson past/present can indeed be a tool to also mock Corbyn past/present, but my real beef with her lies in this campaign she's now running to cancel Brexit.

It's exploitative of the voting base. Even the SNP in a majority remain Scotland know they can't just run on "We'll cancel Brexit week 1". The SNP have routinely pushed for a people's vote and failing that they've said due to their majority in the Scottish Parliament they'll ask for an indyref.

Swinson is warping people's minds to have them think she can do better than Corbyn at stopping Brexit, when in reality due to the Parliament we have and the vote gone by, the people's vote has long been basically the only option we have to return to the Parliament with an instruction MPs HAVE to follow.

Because she knows she's not going to get the Lib Dems a majority, she's just saying shit to further her career. It sounds good, but it's water going through a sieve.
 

nature boy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,877
[
EJpRuPiXkAAF0VN


This thing is over. Labour are not making any headway and polling suggests that only 20% of the electorate is yet to decide. Labour would need to get a 13 pt lead to 5 or 6 to have a realistic shot of limiting Tory gains to the 30 odd seats they're likely to lose.
You think Tories got a majority locked? That's all what this election is about
 

Bobson Dugnutt

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,052
¿Whats Labour"s position on Brexit?

Negotiate new deal
Hold referendum on that deal Vs remain.

Which brings up the comical notion of a party voting against the deal they negotiated, because they'll decide at a special conference.

Labour are unflinchingly radical on nigh on everything but on the biggest issue of the day there's an attempt at triangulation that pleases very few, all because corbs wants brexit.

I could live with the idea personally but the narrative is so polarised it will prove useless
 

CD_93

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,989
Lancashire, United Kingdom
I might be the only person who can live with Corbyn's Brexit stance. Nothing wrong with him staying neutral as he said he would tbh. Publically campaigning for remain didn't help Cameron. Publically campaigning for revoke won't make Swinson PM.

People will make a big deal over which way Corbyn himself would vote. But even if he is a Brexiteer, so long as he is dedicated to carrying out whatever that second referendum (Deal vs Remain) presents then I don't really care.

It's a divisive enough issue that devoting yourself to either side isn't going to work.
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
I worked in the tribunal service for social security benefits with the MOJ. After being through the system myself with ESA.

The shit I saw on a daily basis clerking those tribunals. It's worse than when I worked in vetting for Disclosure Scotland(CRB for here) because it was first hand, not court papers.
Yeah there is so many fucked up decisions on ESA. People dying or with no limbs told they are able to work etc. I was on ESA for like 7 months after having mental health issues. They gave me like 2 points even though I was a mess. So had to go to a tribunal and then waited for 4 months...
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
But she always wanted to stay in. Regardless of her party having a policy of letting people have a say (though that was caveated) she was always in a party that wanted to stay.

Her position hasn't changed on the EU - other than she has committed the LDs to being out and out remain no 2nd ref.

Corbyn - what principle does he have on the EU? He was a hardline Brexiteer for his whole career, then a lukewarm remainer, now god only knows.
Why does that matter when her position has gone from having a referendum that started this mess to cancelling brexit and ignoring the referendum result. It's not about being remain or leave it's about having fundamentally zero backbone.

No matter how you look at someone that campaigns on and contributed to having a referendum on something anything in this scenario then pretending like they had nothing to with said referendum and wanting to ignore that it ever happened is a fundamentally unscrupulous person that has shame or integrity about what they've contributed to.

David Cameron wanted to remain also should we not blame him for his contribution to this mess?
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
The hypocrisy of Swinson past/present can indeed be a tool to also mock Corbyn past/present, but my real beef with her lies in this campaign she's now running to cancel Brexit.

It's exploitative of the voting base. Even the SNP in a majority remain Scotland know they can't just run on "We'll cancel Brexit week 1". The SNP have routinely pushed for a people's vote and failing that they've said due to their majority in the Scottish Parliament they'll ask for an indyref.

Swinson is warping people's minds to have them think she can do better than Corbyn at stopping Brexit, when in reality due to the Parliament we have and the vote gone by, the people's vote has long been basically the only option we have to return to the Parliament with an instruction MPs HAVE to follow.

Because she knows she's not going to get the Lib Dems a majority, she's just saying shit to further her career. It sounds good, but it's water going through a sieve.
Frankly, just stopping it is undemocratic as fuck and would do nothing to "bring the country together".

It needs to be beaten in a second vote to have any legitimacy.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,108
London
Evidence? Of something well known?

Anyhow for example...

Ok you know what I'm going to retract my earlier hardline stance that hardly any economists advocated for austerity because I forgot about the influence that flawed Reinhart and Rogoff paper had on political thinking, and also how much of a backlash there was to the Keynesian fiscal stimulus of 2008-10. I've also allowed the economists I read, who tend to be quite strongly against austerity, to colour my impression of the entire economics world.

What I will stand by is that what you initially said is still total bullshit. You said:

We had to adjust spending. How deeply and how it was done - matters greatly. But anyone who suggests we didn't have to reduce our public spending someway is living in cloud cuckoo land. Clearly we went far too deep and for far too long - but whilst there were opportunities for growth by 2013/4 no economist in the world would have advocated "no fiscal tightening".

There most certainly was not the uniform opinion you say here, or else we wouldn't have lauded economists like Paul Krugman, Simon Wren-Lewis and Mariana Mazzucato who were and are consistently against austerity from beginning until now. Do they not exist? Are they in cloud cuckoo land? At most you can say that there were advocates for both sides, and to a lesser or greater extent they were listened to depending on the country. America had more of a stimulus than we did and a stronger recovery. Meanwhile, the UK, who went hardcore for fiscal consolidation, has had the slowest and weakest response to a recession, well, ever.
 
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Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
Yeah there is so many fucked up decisions on ESA. People dying or with no limbs told they are able to work etc. I was on ESA for like 7 months after having mental health issues. They gave me like 2 points even though I was a mess. So had to go to a tribunal and then waited for 4 months...
Yeah, I was on it for depression too. The cunt doing the assessment totally lied on my report, they routinely did it as I would see later.

Reports were copy and pasted and shit. I had a women in a wheelchair who could stand for like 10 seconds done as walking to and back to the local shop daily.

She fucking pissed herself in the tribunal because she was so scared of losing her benefit.
 

Stuart444

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,068
I worked in the tribunal service for social security benefits with the MOJ. After being through the system myself with ESA.

The shit I saw on a daily basis clerking those tribunals. It's worse than when I worked in vetting for Disclosure Scotland(CRB for here) because it was first hand, not court papers.

Urgh, is the process for going through ESA Tribunal shit similar for PiP? My wife (who I talked about in the last thread having to apply for PiP now) got 0 points on everything. And the report on how the decision was made was a mix of lies and misrepresentations (also lies by omission).

It was so bad that the welfare rights officer we see was furious and is helping us sort it out but I'm expecting it to go all the way to appeals tribunal.

Oh and her last lot of DLA went in last week so we're just on my ESA/DLA for now on top of dealing with this stress.

I do worry about if the Tories win and make things even worse if that's even possible. It's bad enough as it is :(
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
I might be the only person who can live with Corbyn's Brexit stance. Nothing wrong with him staying neutral as he said he would tbh. Publically campaigning for remain didn't help Cameron. Publically campaigning for revoke won't make Swinson PM.

People will make a big deal over which way Corbyn himself would vote. But even if he is a Brexiteer, so long as he is dedicated to carrying out whatever that second referendum (Deal vs Remain) presents then I don't really care.

It's a divisive enough issue that devoting yourself to either side isn't going to work.

Labours remain campaign to oppose the Tories with leave was fucking abysmal, Corbyn deserves zero credit for that. He wasn't the right leader to oppose Brexit, but people will tell me due the Labour voting base being split on remain/leave it doesn't make much difference.

Maybe there is a bit of truth in that, but Labour were still fucking shocking during the Brexit campaign.

Corbyn then made a mess of dragging his heels on supporting something like the people's vote, but Labour are at least here now and it's not Swinson's "I'll just cancel it, YOLO!".

Frankly, just stopping it is undemocratic as fuck and would do nothing to "bring the country together".

It needs to be beaten in a second vote to have any legitimacy.

People begrudgingly have to admit this. This isn't some "Brexit means Brexit" gammonery, it's being realistic that in order to challenge the Brexit referendum, a democratic process needs to follow. Which the people's vote has always been the #1 method.

Anyone who claims a vote cannot be challenged if there is legitimacy to do so are ironically those who don't actually believe in a form of democracy. The whole of the Brexit process from start to finish has had errors, lies and deception, which is what gives it being challenged legitimacy.
 

Flammable D

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,205
Oh my fucking god are we seriously doing what's Labour's brexit position again

Also acting like a left wing person's potential issues with the EU are the same as Jacob Rees Mogg's is fucking infuriating, and shows how shallow an understanding of politics and the very institution they've decided to dedicate their entire brain space to some remainers have
 

iapetus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,078
Negotiate new deal
Hold referendum on that deal Vs remain.

Which brings up the comical notion of a party voting against the deal they negotiated, because they'll decide at a special conference.

Do people really still have a problem understanding why this might happen? Because it's possible that remain (even with Labour backing it) would lose, and in that case it would be really nice if the form of leave that gets implemented is the least painful one possible (or at least one that isn't actually designed to fuck over workers).
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
Yeah, I was on it for depression too. The cunt doing the assessment totally lied on my report, they routinely did it as I would see later.

Reports were copy and pasted and shit. I had a women in a wheelchair who could stand for like 10 seconds done as walking to and back to the local shop daily.

She fucking pissed herself in the tribunal because she was so scared of losing her benefit.
Damn that poor woman.

I got low points cus I "dressed nice and did my hair" like umm my hair is shaved aha.

Urgh, is the process for going through ESA Tribunal shit similar for PiP? My wife (who I talked about in the last thread having to apply for PiP now) got 0 points on everything. And the report on how the decision was made was a mix of lies and misrepresentations (also lies by omission).

It was so bad that the welfare rights officer we see was furious and is helping us sort it out but I'm expecting it to go all the way to appeals tribunal.

Oh and her last lot of DLA went in last week so we're just on my ESA/DLA for now on top of dealing with this stress.

I do worry about if the Tories win and make things even worse if that's even possible. It's bad enough as it is :(
Yeh, it basically the same.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
Things are certainly looking dire



I just want to die :)

How the fuck can Borris do so well with all his gaffs, bigotry, failures as a leader, and inability to string a coherent sentence together when asked anything specific? To be honest it's worst than Trump, at least Trump was smart enough to play off the wealth gap and elites controlling government to gain support even though you had to be pretty blind to fall for it.
 

WhovianGamer

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,033
Labour's position on Brexit is a huge problem. It's never been clear all along, and Corbyn never gives his clear view on it, always some wordy thing. It doesn't help at all. I live in an area that has swung from labour to tory and vice versa several times and I don't know a single person voting labour, or speaking like they will at all.
Corbyn fans can stick their fingers in their ears all they want, but to Joe public his views don't cut through or aren't clear. Of the three main forces this election, labours is the most fiddly.
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
Urgh, is the process for going through ESA Tribunal shit similar for PiP? My wife (who I talked about in the last thread having to apply for PiP now) got 0 points on everything. And the report on how the decision was made was a mix of lies and misrepresentations (also lies by omission).

It was so bad that the welfare rights officer we see was furious and is helping us sort it out but I'm expecting it to go all the way to appeals tribunal.

Oh and her last lot of DLA went in last week so we're just on my ESA/DLA for now on top of dealing with this stress.

I do worry about if the Tories win and make things even worse if that's even possible. It's bad enough as it is :(
Yeah it's the same, I saw all social security but it was mostly DLA and ESA, pip hadn't been rolled out nationwide. It's horrible, I've seen a lot of things, at disclosure I dealt with barring women beaters, paedos etc that was just dealing with court papers etc so you can distance yourself a little. But what I saw with my own eyes in that place still hits me.

We would get literally 100s of appeals, the MOJ couldn't cope with the numbers hence the delays.

Edit oh it cost a fucking fortune too, you had to pay a judge, doctor and disabled civil servant for every tribunal. On top of me clerking and doing the admin.
 

Bobson Dugnutt

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,052
Do people really still have a problem understanding why this might happen? Because it's possible that remain (even with Labour backing it) would lose, and in that case it would be really nice if the form of leave that gets implemented is the least painful one possible (or at least one that isn't actually designed to fuck over workers).

If by people you mean the wider electorate then yes, I would say it's clearly not well understood. It's been woefully explained and contradicted quite a lot by the front bench team
 

Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,888
Manchester, UK
And Corbyn spent three decades using the exact language Brexiteers like Rees Mogg use to describe the EU.

Lets not airbrush history. Corbyn is a massive Brexiteer - were he not Labour leader he'd have been campaigning alongside Hoey.

It's amazing how Lib Dems have built themselves this little world where Corbyn can be judged on things he didn't actually do, whereas the Lib Dems absolutely cannot be judged for what they did during the coalition
 

iapetus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,078
Am just hoping all polls are underestimating the youth vote. One sees a 30% drop in turn out if I remember rightly. Hope they all are wrong and we get a hung parliament.

The push against Labour isn't one on policies. You can see how it's working on Facebook - it's a push against Corbyn as a person, and it's a push against politicians in general. People on the left as much as the right are posting and reposting memes about how all politicians are shit, and that's part of a deliberate campaign to reduce turnout.
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
The push against Labour isn't one on policies. You can see how it's working on Facebook - it's a push against Corbyn as a person, and it's a push against politicians in general. People on the left as much as the right are posting and reposting memes about how all politicians are shit, and that's part of a deliberate campaign to reduce turnout.
Yeah, I am 24 and black. I have a few friends that have given up on politics sadly.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,108
London
The push against Labour isn't one on policies. You can see how it's working on Facebook - it's a push against Corbyn as a person, and it's a push against politicians in general. People on the left as much as the right are posting and reposting memes about how all politicians are shit, and that's part of a deliberate campaign to reduce turnout.
It absolutely is, and a calculated attempt to make Johnson's many lies, indiscretions and corruption seem normal - because they're all it dontchaknow so it doesn't matter.
 

Stuart444

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,068
Yeah it's the same, I saw all social security but it was mostly DLA and ESA, pip hadn't been rolled out nationwide. It's horrible, I've seen a lot of things, at disclosure I dealt with barring women beaters, paedos etc that was just dealing with court papers etc so you can distance yourself a little. But what I saw with my own eyes in that place still hits me.

We would get literally 100s of appeals, the MOJ couldn't cope with the numbers hence the delays.

Edit oh it cost a fucking fortune too, you had to pay a judge, doctor and disabled civil servant for every tribunal. On top of me clerking and doing the admin.

Urgh, that sounds awful.

I know about the costs though, The welfare rights officer during a conversation (this was while we were actually applying to pip aka we didn't exactly have much hope of everything going okay first time) mentioned it's like 2000 quid per.

All this stuff is the Tories trying to 'save money' and all that crap when all it really does is cost the country more and people still lap up their crap when the Tories go all "We are fiscally conservative".

Bloody hell :/
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
But antisemitism in Labour... It goes beyond that though because Boris is terrible on just about every metric, he's even worse than May was.
It's more the UK is right leaning. The people leaning right don't care about bigotry. Corbyn isn't doing badly cus he is deemed antisemitic, he is doing bad cus he is very left leaning (yes the antisemitism doesn't help, but it isn't the major factor of why he is so low).
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,261
I'd say a good 40% of our population are racist cunts. That's how Johnson is still seen favourably. He's a posh tory, so the bar for getting away with shit is even lower than most, and people don't seem to care about the massive list of shit he's said and done.
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
Urgh, that sounds awful.

I know about the costs though, The welfare rights officer during a conversation (this was while we were actually applying to pip aka we didn't exactly have much hope of everything going okay first time) mentioned it's like 2000 quid per.

All this stuff is the Tories trying to 'save money' and all that crap when all it really does is cost the country more and people still lap up their crap when the Tories go all "We are fiscally conservative".

Bloody hell :/
I am sure I read that the Government spend more trying to battle appeals than what it would cost to just accept people are too ill to work.
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943


「HAMMER TIME」

It's ridiculous to exclude them from a debate in Scotland. It's ridiculous to include them in the majority of seats where they don't stand.

Solution? As I've said before, SNP to stand across the UK with a policy of moving the seat of UK government to Scotland.

If we live in an equal Union where the ITV debate will be broadcast in Scotland, the SNP should be there.
 

Flammable D

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,205
Labour's position on Brexit is a huge problem. It's never been clear all along, and Corbyn never gives his clear view on it, always some wordy thing. It doesn't help at all. I live in an area that has swung from labour to tory and vice versa several times and I don't know a single person voting labour, or speaking like they will at all.
Corbyn fans can stick their fingers in their ears all they want, but to Joe public his views don't cut through or aren't clear. Of the three main forces this election, labours is the most fiddly.
You can explain it in a single sentence, yet the media and opposition willfully act confused by it
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
Urgh, that sounds awful.

I know about the costs though, The welfare rights officer during a conversation (this was while we were actually applying to pip aka we didn't exactly have much hope of everything going okay first time) mentioned it's like 2000 quid per.

All this stuff is the Tories trying to 'save money' and all that crap when all it really does is cost the country more and people still lap up their crap when the Tories go all "We are fiscally conservative".

Bloody hell :/
Yep was 2k minimum when I was there, but it came out our budget, not the DWPs. Most appeals won too so the DWP then had to pay out, can't remember if they had to pay interest.

Btw I hope it works out with your wife, 90% of the tribunal panels I saw were really good people, judged things fairly and tbh didn't take the assessments as the truth. They know what the dwp does to people because they see it everyday.

Edit oh and always, always have a rep like your welfare rights officer when dealing with those bastards.
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
Yep was 2k minimum when I was there, but it came out our budget, not the DWPs. Most appeals won too so the DWP then had to pay out, can't remember if they had to pay interest.

Btw I hope it works out with your wife, 90% of the tribunal panels I saw were really good people, judged things fairly and tbh didn't take the assessments as the truth. They know what the dwp does to people because they see it everyday.
Tribunals are dope, mine was like why are you even here. Kept asking if I was ok etc
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
「HAMMER TIME」



If we live in an equal Union where the ITV debate will be broadcast in Scotland, the SNP should be there.
Nah if this was the only debate in the entire campaign sure, but it's a single head to head between the only two people who can feasibly be PM. There's nothing wrong with such a debate and it was rightly dismissed.

If the sole argument is that the SNP or lib dems should be there because they're the 3rd and forth most powerful parties what's stopping the 5th and 6th most powerful parties making that argument also. It's a completely an arbitrary argument either all party leaders in the running should be included in all debates or you can have different debate formats.

If they were being locked out from all debates I could understand but it's one debate amongst many.
 
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