Labour have a massive task on their hands just to make people care about this election now, feels like the sentiment has quickly turned to inevitable doom.
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UK General Election 12th December 2019 |OT1| Hindsight is 20/19 (Tory majority confirmed)
- Thread starter Uzzy
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Don't know how he'll regret it. He and his Tories are in power for another 6 years (if they win), and as long they remain in power - Scotland will not get another independence referendum. And there's nothing Scotland can do about it.
Not only were the vast majority of the media portraying corbyn as a terrorist sympathiser etc and doing constant hit pieces on him but the polls had the tories down to get a 200 seat majority.
Despite all of that Labour went on to have the biggest swing in votes since ww2, matched Blair vote share for his second term and prevented the tories from having taken us out of the EU 2 years ago.
In an ideal world, would they have done better? In a dreamworld of course but at least 40% of our electorate have been radicalised by brexit, the media and tories and getting them back is either impossible or would require every newspaper and news source to suddenly turn left wing and start promoting everything in the opposite stance.
How anyone can claim that is a bad result is beyond me.
if only someone wanted to change that
just for clarity, this sarcastic post is not having a go at you, you just provided a good reply point :)
So who is this mythical figure that could unite the Labour party with the moderate Tory wing to bring us to the promised land?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_War_of_Independence
I think the Tories are going insane enough that the above scenario would be fathomable. After a No Deal Brexit, anything goes.
You honestly think Scotland is going to start a war against the entire UK? At this modern time? Really?
Lol. If you do can Scotland reclaim Northumberland please?
I think that England will forget that it's not an empire and provoke conflict in Scotland, yes. Everything's rapidly going downhill under the Conservatives. They're utterly deluded in so many levels that it's no longer out of the question. I can absolutely see them 'putting down dissent with force'.
A public climb down and pact with the Tories might actually (I'm optimistically reaching here) be of some boon.
Farage is mostly hated, hence why he could never win a seat and isn't standing at this election.
Corbyn is already pointing out that this is exactly what Trump told Farage to do on the radio the other week.
So, go hard on this. Obviously there are hardocre Brexiteers you will never win round but there are a lot of people in the middle voting for the Brexit party out of a ignorance.
This Farage/Boris/Trump alliance highlights what they all are. Self serving right wing morons, with more luck than judgement. Happy to swing toward whichever wind happens to give them a small advantage at the time. No ideals, no morals, no scruples.
Farage is mostly hated, hence why he could never win a seat and isn't standing at this election.
Corbyn is already pointing out that this is exactly what Trump told Farage to do on the radio the other week.
So, go hard on this. Obviously there are hardocre Brexiteers you will never win round but there are a lot of people in the middle voting for the Brexit party out of a ignorance.
This Farage/Boris/Trump alliance highlights what they all are. Self serving right wing morons, with more luck than judgement. Happy to swing toward whichever wind happens to give them a small advantage at the time. No ideals, no morals, no scruples.
I know you're angry, but I just can't see Scotland going to war. They will be going against the British army (minus the Scots who want independence) and homes and cities will be destroyed in both countries.
And knowing the Tories, they'll think Scotland got more to lose so they'll wait until the Scots declare war.
I think it's possible to say that while Corbyn was the figurehead of the Labour push to the left, that there could possibly be a better option as leader without abandoning the shift to the left.
The right wing press would without doubt push against any leader left of Blair, but there are things in Corbyn's past that are very easy to bash him over the head with. Let's not pretend that the bacon sandwich is on the par with photos of Corbyn with Gerry Adams or Hamas etc.
It's not so black and white. To assume that without Corbyn it would be golden is naiive, as is to totally deny that some of his history and past associations make it easier for the press to paint him as the bogeyman.
My father in law just popped in and said that if there's a pact between Farage and Johnson, it won't be as bad as Corbyn and Sturgeon being power.
This is an 82 year old man who lives in France, the Tories have jeopardised his right to stay in France, and have impacted on his income due to the fall in sterling. He will be ruined by having to return to the UK, a country he doesn't want to go back to anyway. A man whose wife had her DLA/PIP taken away by the arsehole Tory run DWP for six months while we fought to have it reinstated. Whose wife had to take IDS and the DWP to court in the first place because they refused to pay out to pensioners in the EU.
He also gets the Daily Mail every day. When you're up against that, someone whose life the Tories are turning upside down, and he still thinks they're a better bet than Labour, then I just despair.
The right wing press would without doubt push against any leader left of Blair, but there are things in Corbyn's past that are very easy to bash him over the head with. Let's not pretend that the bacon sandwich is on the par with photos of Corbyn with Gerry Adams or Hamas etc.
It's not so black and white. To assume that without Corbyn it would be golden is naiive, as is to totally deny that some of his history and past associations make it easier for the press to paint him as the bogeyman.
My father in law just popped in and said that if there's a pact between Farage and Johnson, it won't be as bad as Corbyn and Sturgeon being power.
This is an 82 year old man who lives in France, the Tories have jeopardised his right to stay in France, and have impacted on his income due to the fall in sterling. He will be ruined by having to return to the UK, a country he doesn't want to go back to anyway. A man whose wife had her DLA/PIP taken away by the arsehole Tory run DWP for six months while we fought to have it reinstated. Whose wife had to take IDS and the DWP to court in the first place because they refused to pay out to pensioners in the EU.
He also gets the Daily Mail every day. When you're up against that, someone whose life the Tories are turning upside down, and he still thinks they're a better bet than Labour, then I just despair.
Riots o
riots on the street is wholly different to Scotland marching south with force to demand a referendum...In Glasgow I could see some unrest, but Edinburgh is an English City so nothing happening there
I'm angry but honestly, what normally happens when people vote and don't get what they want? Imagine if the SNP got a majority of seats and votes and an independence referendum didn't happen. People would be thoroughly pissed, the SNP would be thoroughly pissed, etc. I understand it's pretty fucking crazy to consider at all, but trust me, being from the north of Ireland, I know how quickly shit can hit the fan. ESPECIALLY when one or more major players are actively malevolent, AKA the Tories. Things can come to a head very rapidly, doubly so when everyone's poor due to the guaranteed recession. People would be PISSED, and would rightly blame the Tories for their woes.
I'm not HOPING it'd come to this, but Boris seems to fancy himself some imperialist head during the glory days of the empire, he's shown little to no regard for the peace here in Ireland. Why would he try to be fair to Scotland either?
Hey, remember the Russian Interference Report? I must have dreamt about it because there's no mention of it in the news today.
I look at Spain and Catalonia. They did a referendum (even though it's illegal to the Spanish government). There were riots, chaos... but in the end the Spanish government shut them down.
Why isn't Catalonia going to war? Because they know the consequences. They'll most likely lose the war.
That is the best thing Scotland can do. They are stuck especially under a Tory government and until SNP has some power in Westminster or a party in power listens to SNP, they'll remain in the UK.
They seriously fecked up in 2014. BIG time.
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Oh look the hypothetical nuclear button test has come up again.
So Corbyn isn't quick to say he would use a bomb which kills hundreds of thousands in some ridiculous situation which is never going to happen.
So Corbyn isn't quick to say he would use a bomb which kills hundreds of thousands in some ridiculous situation which is never going to happen.
Are the tories pulling a gop though? Sure they will be in power for now but if we have to live through 5 years of them controlling the brexit destination with no prior labour government to blame in the mid to longer term with their voter base being older surely it's only a matter of time until labour get in...its just how bad a state the country is in before it happens.
The fact you can just bring over EU nationals and undercut your own people has always been a problem and something that does need to change. FOM should be a level playing field not a backdoor to a cheap exploited workforce.
They managed to survive the shitshow of the last decade of crippling austerity, they look like they're going to survive absolutely decimating the UK for decades more as their prime policy, I have no idea what it would take to get those monsters out.
GTFO with this xenophobic bullshit. It's never been true and just feeds into the anti-immigrant narrative of the far-right. Fucking fuming to read it here from supposedly left-wing people.
I'm not even sure that is the whole problem here, the problem (at least my problem) is that he has gone against every single piece of UK military action in his political career, even those that have had a positive outcome (Bosnia & Kosovo is one).
I admire his principals, but principals don't win elections.
Unfortunately without systematic reform the Conservatives will always be given an easy ride to Government, and the establishment absolutely won't allow a Labour win unless it's a hugely neutered version of itself and does deals with one of the newspaper barons, ala New Labour and Murdoch.
The demographics probably will shift in time, but it's time we don't really have anymore. Many things are now at breaking point and in need of deep, systematic reform.
I think you've misunderstood because I'm absolutely in favour of FOM but you can't deny it's used to exploit people over the years and would benefit everyone (including those who would come here) from reforms that improve their status.
The thing with freedom of movement is successive govts didn't take advantage of the 3 month window people get to find a job or get kicked out.
They pretended people were here for our shite benefits when even if that was true you could deport them if the govt really cared.
They pretended people were here for our shite benefits when even if that was true you could deport them if the govt really cared.
companies using immigration to run a race to the bottom on pay and rights can be tacked both by legislation and strengthening unions in the uk
reducing workers rights and protections isn't a shortcut to reducing exploitation
That was my point, I obviously didn't make that clear enough.
to be clear I meant workers right should be improved for EU nationals not that everyone should go down.
Eh, I can see public opinion changing from being against the Tories to REALLY being against the Tories after Brexit actually happens and shit truly hits the fan. Nobody wants a war sans the Tories (and don't doubt that they'd happily oppress others like that), but nobody wants to be utterly dirt poor either.
... Except for the English populace however, according to the past few election outcomes.
Yeah this is true. And that's because they never bothered to set up a system that would allow them to do this, like actually recording who was coming into and out of the country.
Not sure what the argument is here. Be more bloodthirsty and win a GE...?
Or, no matter how you much dislike war, there may become a time in a prime ministers career that military intervention is necessary?
As NATO members, (something else JC is against), we are duty bound to intervene if a NATO member is attacked, how would that pan out with JC at the helm?
You can deny this because it's not true and it can also be true that you're in favour of FOM and still be capable of using the negative framing that people come over here and take our jaerbs. Every time you do this you help solidify the view that immigrants are bad, even if you yourself don't believe this.
This is not actually particularly accurate either. We regularly used controls to get rid of people who couldn't support themselves. Where we didn't use controls is we didn't limit the numbers of accession countries so we were the primary destination for quite a few of the central/eastern european countries when FOM first came in for them.
This isn't really true though is it. There are labour shortages, many jobs that are not filled by British people.
Nobody wants a war. But the Tories don't want Scotland to leave either. And to be honest, I don't want Scotland to leave either BUT I don't blame them after this shambles.
The public opinion being against the Tories in Scotland will be much bigger than it'll EVER be...but what can they do about it? SNP can win maximum seats...but still lose to the Tories because the rest of the Brits can't vote for SNP.
They seriously can't do anything about it, except rioting (in which what Catalonia had done and failed) or go to war BUT, they will very most likely NOT win the war and the UK will have firmer holds in Scotland. Not to mention deaths and broken homes.
Of course they are, and I would argue that anyone who says otherwise also isn't fit to be a PM.
❤ Yes, and as someobe who has given up a lot of time to be a part of said grassroots campaigning, there's nothing more irritating than people who say Labour are unelectable. I live in an area where Tory voters outnumber us 2:1 in General Elections but through door-to-door campaigning we see constant success in local elections. Labour can win in many seats with a good candidate that goes door-to-door.
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here I was responded to what Jonh McDonnell said on Sky News. It's absolutely not about bringing people down, it's the exact opposite. Any reforms to FOM should benefit those looking to come here which in turn benefits everyone.
okay but you have to ask why is this and why those people coming here should be entitled to less? If you look at the recent example of fruit going bad because farmers have been unable to recruit workers that doesn't look like a healthy business, it looks like an industry built on the back of a loophole. It's apparently unsustainable without those workers so what does that say about the expectations of those businesses and some others that the low cost of labour is just assumed? Those are people who are likely to work longer hours for less pay and not use things like employment tribunals so their rights are stepped on.
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So why the hand-wringing about his position on intervention sorry? I'm confused
Fuck knows. Cross that bridge if we ever get there, I imagine. It's not like Corbyn doesn't take advice and change positions based on the assessment of the situation, to think otherwise has shades of the "he'll never do a second referendum because's he's a SECRET BREXITER" shit.
Why on earth, with literally everything else literally happening domestically RIGHT NOW, would a theoretical like that ever be in the forefront of your mind as an issue anyway? Let alone thinking being more hawkish would suddenly win Corbyn a majority. If anything it'd alienate those who like him for taking a more measured approach to foreign conflict than just deploying the armed forces or carpet bombing cities.
Spoiler alert: the British public aren't very hot on military interventionism these days.
Cherry picking data?, Seirra Leone, Somali, Bosnia and Kosovo are missing
'Liberal interventionism' has one win and many, many instances of us just making things worse.
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