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Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
People with learning disabilities have been given do not resuscitate orders during the second wave of the pandemic, in spite of widespread condemnation of the practice last year and an urgent investigation by the care watchdog.

Mencap said it had received reports in January from people with learning disabilities that they had been told they would not be resuscitated if they were taken ill with Covid-19.

The Care Quality Commission said in December that inappropriate Do Not Attempt Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation (DNACPR) notices had caused potentially avoidable deaths last year.

DNACPRs are usually made for people who are too frail to benefit from CPR, but Mencap said some seem to have been issued for people simply because they had a learning disability. The CQC is due to publish a report on the practice within weeks.

The disclosure comes as campaigners put growing pressure on ministers to reconsider a decision not to give people with learning disabilities priority for vaccinations. There is growing evidence that even those with a mild disability are more likely to die if they contract the coronavirus.

Although some people with learning disabilities such as Down's syndrome were in one of four groups set by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) which the government promised would be offered the vaccine by tomorrow, many were classified lower categories of need and are still waiting.

www.theguardian.com

Fury at ‘do not resuscitate’ notices given to Covid patients with learning disabilities

Vulnerable people have encountered ‘shocking discrimination’ during pandemic, says Mencap charity

Evidently there's a full report to be published in some weeks. But uh... hm.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
Who are the pieces of shit giving out these orders? They should not be working in medicine.
 

Uhyve

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,169
Wow, don't know how to respond to this. Totally reprehensible. And also, not surprising somehow.
 

MRORANGE

Nice thread btw :)
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,569
UK
Fucking hell, that is messed up. It's already bad that people with learning disabilities are not getting the vaccine first.

And of course none of the mainstream news outlets are picking this up... yet.
 

djinn

Member
Nov 16, 2017
15,839
This is beyond disgusting. As a healthcare worker myself, I don't have words for this.
 

Flannel_and_Assam

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jun 21, 2020
256
United Kingdom
User banned (2 months): Inflammatory commentary; dismissing concerns around discriminatory behavior as "outrage clicks"
Without any evidence or circumstance with regards to these specific claims, I struggle to see what that part of the article achieves other than outrage clicks. While I don't doubt that there are still inappropriate DNACPRs being issued, the crux of the matter is that many of these will be appropriate. Even for a normal healthy adult, CPR is invasive, it has a very low chance of survival, and those that survive often have an extremely poor quality of life.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,156
There has been policy along these lines throughout most of 2020.

It's Eugenics.
 

echoshifting

very salt heavy
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,959
The Negative Zone
Without any evidence or circumstance with regards to these specific claims, I struggle to see what that part of the article achieves other than outrage clicks. While I don't doubt that there are still inappropriate DNACPRs being issued, the crux of the matter is that many of these will be appropriate. Even for a normal healthy adult, CPR is invasive, it has a very low chance of survival, and those that survive often have an extremely poor quality of life.

Often? Where are you getting this from?
 

Hagi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,950
You could blame Tories for this but there is a real lack of empathy for not only LD people but the elderly in our care system that quite frankly is disgusting. If the hospital in my town ended up on Panorama they'd be fucked.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
Heavy Gattaca vibe
7048422c541efb52bf13756b5e712e41.jpg
 
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Kiria

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,624
Without any evidence or circumstance with regards to these specific claims, I struggle to see what that part of the article achieves other than outrage clicks. While I don't doubt that there are still inappropriate DNACPRs being issued, the crux of the matter is that many of these will be appropriate. Even for a normal healthy adult, CPR is invasive, it has a very low chance of survival, and those that survive often have an extremely poor quality of life.
Sure but patients should still have a choice

This is still fucked up
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,838
Without any evidence or circumstance with regards to these specific claims, I struggle to see what that part of the article achieves other than outrage clicks. While I don't doubt that there are still inappropriate DNACPRs being issued, the crux of the matter is that many of these will be appropriate. Even for a normal healthy adult, CPR is invasive, it has a very low chance of survival, and those that survive often have an extremely poor quality of life.

in what sense could preferential resuscitation for those without learning disabilities be "appropriate" ?
what makes it appropriate?
 

mikeys_legendary

The Fallen
Sep 26, 2018
3,011
I think we're ready for an Earth 2.

This is so sad. People are so afraid of immigrants that they'll turn a blind eye to (with some outright encouraging, I am sure) the abuse of the disabled.

The Tories have got to go.
 

Oh no

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
653
Fucking hell, that is messed up. It's already bad that people with learning disabilities are not getting the vaccine first.

Yup. I got my first vaccine last month but none of the folk I support have heard anything at all about getting theirs. Doesn't make sense.
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,078
Disabled people have been mistreated even worse than the norm during this pandemic. It's truly awful to see how quick we are to fuck them over for our own convenience.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,562
Not defending this but isn't this a side effect of triage situations? Same with old people?

Anyway still messed up
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,118
Austria
Not defending this but isn't this a side effect of triage situations? Same with old people?

Anyway still messed up
How do you mean that?
I don't think the comparison to the elderly works, because I think that non-treatment there is usually linked to them being much more at risk when it comes to failed procedures, side effects etc.
Shouldn't be the case here.
Choosing not to attempt resuscitation for a 94 year old person is often super risky and shouldn't be in the same ballpark as making the same choice for a healthy adult with learning disabilities
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,073
Disabled people have been mistreated even worse than the norm during this pandemic. It's truly awful to see how quick we are to fuck them over for our own convenience.

For greater context, the government in this instance had to be taken to court in the first lockdown, because their restrictions had made no accounting for the support infrastructure that disabled people - especially those with learning disabilities - needed.

And I'd like to stress that point, in the context of this article. Many of those who've found themselves under this decision had learning disabilities. As in, their disability is nothing fucking physical in their lungs or blood stream where it affects their chances of being resuscitated and thus 'worth the effort'. If there is a choice being made here - and not, at the most generous, a fuck up of nuance around how the category of 'disabled' has a higher risk of catching and dying of the disease - it is purely about the presumed (quality of) life being saved, and that 'not being worth the effort'.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,562
How do you mean that?
I don't think the comparison to the elderly works, because I think that non-treatment there is usually linked to them being much more at risk when it comes to failed procedures, side effects etc.
Shouldn't be the case here.
Obviously i don't know if this applies here but i know some places around the world had to shift to a triage system when their hospitals get overwhelmed.

It's basically a cruel system to determine which life is more important based on likelyhood of recovery and quality of life when the system gets overwhelmed.

In advanced triage, specially trained doctors, nurses and paramedics may decide that some seriously injured people should not receive advanced care because they are unlikely to survive. It is used to divert scarce resources away from patients with little chance of survival in order to increase the chances for others with higher likelihoods.

The use of advanced triage may become necessary when medical professionals decide that the medical resources available are not sufficient to treat all the people who need help. The treatment being prioritized can include the time spent on medical care, or drugs or other limited resources. This has happened in disasters such as terrorist attacks, mass shootings, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tornadoes, thunderstorms, and rail accidents. In these cases some percentage of patients will die regardless of medical care because of the severity of their injuries. Others would live if given immediate medical care, but would die without it.

In these extreme situations, any medical care given to people who will die anyway can be considered to be care withdrawn from others who might have survived (or perhaps suffered less severe disability from their injuries) had they been treated instead. It becomes the task of the disaster medical authorities to set aside some victims as hopeless, to avoid trying to save one life at the expense of several others.

If immediate treatment is successful, the patient may improve (although this may be temporary) and this improvement may allow the patient to be categorized to a lower priority in the short term. Triage should be a continuous process and categories should be checked regularly to ensure that the priority remains correct given the patient's condition. A trauma score is invariably taken when the victim first comes into hospital and subsequent trauma scores are taken to account for any changes in the victim's physiological parameters. If a record is maintained, the receiving hospital doctor can see a trauma score time series from the start of the incident, which may allow definitive treatment earlier.

en.wikipedia.org

Triage - Wikipedia


There's been discussions of having to use triage because not enough vents here in germany but afaik no hospital thankfully got into that situation.
 

Lishi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,284
How do you mean that?
I don't think the comparison to the elderly works, because I think that non-treatment there is usually linked to them being much more at risk when it comes to failed procedures, side effects etc.
Shouldn't be the case here.
Choosing not to attempt resuscitation for a 94 year old person is often super risky and shouldn't be in the same ballpark as making the same choice for a healthy adult with learning disabilities

People with mental illness generally have worse outcome on all the medical procedure.

Of course it would depend on the numbers and reason behind each decision. ( it would be an error to generalise everyone in one category, the category is vast...)
 
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Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,118
Austria
Obviously i don't know if this applies here but i know some places around the world had to shift to a triage system when their hospitals get overwhelmed.

It's basically a cruel system to determine which life is more important based on likelyhood of recovery and quality of life when the system gets overwhelmed.
Yeah yeah, but we're talking about (if we believe the allegations) that in these situations, these specific DNRs are handed out based on learning disabilities. Even assuming that the UK are preparing to make triage choices, afaik, likelyhood of recovery and subsequent quality of life shouldn't be that much lower for people with learning disabilities.
According to what we've been told, these people are not unlikely to survive with treatment, so handing DNRs to them carries the same energy the Neues Volk poster above.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,118
Austria
People with mental illness generally have worse outcome on all the medical procedure.

Of course it would depend on the number and reason behind each decision. ( it would be an error to generalise everyone in one category, the category is vast...)
Worse sure, but the OP in combination with my general lack of trust in most political entities when it comes to making humane choices makes me inclined to doubt handing DNR notices to these people was necessary.
Of course, the reports could be incomplete / misleading.
 

Lishi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,284
Worse sure, but the OP in combination with my general lack of trust in most political entities when it comes to making humane choices makes me inclined to doubt handing DNR notices to these people was necessary.
Of course, the reports could be incomplete / misleading.

Maybe I'm naive but I don't think the people behind those decision are not politically appointed.

Aren't those decision made by a panel of doctor or health professional anyway?

Of course they can still fuck up, but like you said there should be more information.