That rating was because of the Paz tapes I thought.
Either way that game was gratuitous trash with how it handled that subject matter but that's another debate
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Uhhh... what the hell is that rape "dynamic NPC event" in RDR2?
- Thread starter Memento
- Start date
Either way that game was gratuitous trash with how it handled that subject matter but that's another debate
Wow, I would like to see quotes because I definitely missed that, and that's one hell of a bold statement.
key word. Depiction.
Unless a black screen is what rape looks like then it doesnt fall under that.
OP
OP
I think sexual violence is a delicate topic moreso than murdering, especially on a medium like gaming which is still young in terms of storytelling maturity
While I agree with that, all the impact the scene could had (in the sense of being something that actually makes you feel bad and reflect about it) suddenly disappears as the game prefers to mock Arthur instead of actually doing something to acknowledge what happened.
In that sense, we end up with a completely unnecessary rape scene with absolute no repercussion or thought given to. The opposite actually, it simply serves as bad taste mockering pandering to an juvenile audience that laughts at rape jokes.
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Because it's likely a pretty realistic way of how someone would have handled the situation back at that time... especially a man. Men are still to this day are afraid to speak up about being sexually assaulted.
I see nothing wrong with this. The scene was extremely surprising but ultimately not entirely out of place with all the fucked up shit you come across in the game.
I had it happen and then went and killed the guy. Haven't thought of it since. Didn't seem like a big deal to me in a game where tons of horrible shit happens.
User Banned (1 Week): Inflammatory whataboutism and false equivalencies
Thank you for this. I honestly didn't want to write anything because apparently everything is offensive today
Unfortunately there seems to be quite a lot more than one of "that person" in this thread.
There is nothing relevant about drive-by "pointing out" something as helpful as "RDR2 contains murder". It isn't meant to contribute anything that we didn't know to the conversation; it's meant to stop it.
I don't know. Maybe because they didn't want to spend too much resources on that event and/or it wouldn't suit their depiction of Arthur, dealing with a trauma that's not tied to the main plot and narrative.
User banned (3 days): trolling a sensitive thread
You know in the first GTA game if you could run over a group of chanting Hare Khrishnas in one go you would get bonus points and the game would exclaim GOURANGA!
Which is worse?
Which is worse?
I think when talking about a subject such as rape/sexual assault you have to be empathetic and understand that for a real life victim of these crimes or someone who has known someone who has been a victim, seeing scenes like that could/would be very traumatic.
I do think that if a game is going to include things like this, it should definitely be listed in the rating in a specific and concise manner.
I get Arthur not telling people, however they could atleast show how it affected Arthur through monologue or anything. The game has tons of details and they stop there?
I was assaulted and had my balls grabbed by someone and I felt awful for a whole week, hell I still feel awful about it randomly sometimes. And that is just someone grabbing my penis. Yet I can't imagine how much worse being actually raped would feel. It is awful.
Then why add it to begin with? If they wanted to add such a sensetive topic then they need to put effort into it.
Video games and the discussion around video games always seem to have such limited vocabulary when it comes to this kind of thing.
Here's the first thing: as with any narrative/art, nothing should really be off the table. You can explore everything and anything, as long as you do it with care and respect, especially when it comes to the more controversial/sensitive topics. Rape is a very sensitive issue that, when explored appropriately, can contextualise experiences, condemn actions and bring relief and understanding to victims. This is valuable, and it'd be silly to say "there's a rape scene in x... that's bad."
With that in mind, as Rockstar often does, they dive head first into extremely sensitive topics and handle it with about as much grace as a bulldozer. Having a throwaway moment where amidst hunting, looting and riding you get fucking raped like it's just any other day. "Oh my god" and then go back to your business without any followup cause and effectual response is so lousy, lazy and Rockstar-esque I don't know what to say at this point.
On top of this, we've got posts in this thread saying "I mean, this game's filled with murder too" and I completely agree. But I imagine the implication of such a statement is meant to be taken as "there's violence all the time in games, it's an adult game, so why should rape be any worse?", which is disingenuous. This isn't a moment to let both rape and intense violence off the leash. Rather, I see it more as "How did we reach a point where such extremely graphic and sadistic violence is normalised in video games?" Both rape and murder are disgusting and sensitive acts that should be treated with extreme care. Unfortunately extreme ultra-violence has been around in video games for so long that we don't even bat an eyelid to it and that muddies the waters going forward with other sensitive topics.
This is a wakeup call that video games as art have a responsibility to handle their themes and content with care, and they seldom do. You can't handwave this as "adult content." Adult content also means adult approach to adult themes. Blowing someone's head off and then going about your day like a sociopath raises my eyebrow in the same way this rape scene does and if you are disgusted by a throwaway rape scene in a video game, maybe you should look hard and consider why murder and ultra-violence is any different besides the social conditioning you've experienced growing up.
Here's the first thing: as with any narrative/art, nothing should really be off the table. You can explore everything and anything, as long as you do it with care and respect, especially when it comes to the more controversial/sensitive topics. Rape is a very sensitive issue that, when explored appropriately, can contextualise experiences, condemn actions and bring relief and understanding to victims. This is valuable, and it'd be silly to say "there's a rape scene in x... that's bad."
With that in mind, as Rockstar often does, they dive head first into extremely sensitive topics and handle it with about as much grace as a bulldozer. Having a throwaway moment where amidst hunting, looting and riding you get fucking raped like it's just any other day. "Oh my god" and then go back to your business without any followup cause and effectual response is so lousy, lazy and Rockstar-esque I don't know what to say at this point.
On top of this, we've got posts in this thread saying "I mean, this game's filled with murder too" and I completely agree. But I imagine the implication of such a statement is meant to be taken as "there's violence all the time in games, it's an adult game, so why should rape be any worse?", which is disingenuous. This isn't a moment to let both rape and intense violence off the leash. Rather, I see it more as "How did we reach a point where such extremely graphic and sadistic violence is normalised in video games?" Both rape and murder are disgusting and sensitive acts that should be treated with extreme care. Unfortunately extreme ultra-violence has been around in video games for so long that we don't even bat an eyelid to it and that muddies the waters going forward with other sensitive topics.
This is a wakeup call that video games as art have a responsibility to handle their themes and content with care, and they seldom do. You can't handwave this as "adult content." Adult content also means adult approach to adult themes. Blowing someone's head off and then going about your day like a sociopath raises my eyebrow in the same way this rape scene does and if you are disgusted by a throwaway rape scene in a video game, maybe you should look hard and consider why murder and ultra-violence is any different besides the social conditioning you've experienced growing up.
I don't that's dynamic at all. It's the very definition of a scripted event. You get to point A, you get cutscene A. That's it.
Anyway, I didn't come across this event when playing, and I'm glad I didnt'.
Anyway, I didn't come across this event when playing, and I'm glad I didnt'.
I agree that removing these elements is the wrong way to go, I am not in favour of banning or censoring, I do believe that there should be a way for people to find out what kind of content exists within the game with the rating system so they are aware of what to expect (worst case scenario.)
Then don't add the scene if you aren't going to even bother to handle it correctly.
It's certainly not comfortable, and you might argue that it's using it as an exploitative narration device, but Hotline Miami 2 starts on the set of a snuff film that is itself taking 'artistic liberties' with the retelling of the actions of the protagonist in the first game. His actions have been publicised to the world, scrutinised and his selfless act of saving a prostitute and developing a respecting and, eventually, intimate relationship with her has been lost to the media, who just assume he was a rapist holding her captive.
The player only realises they're playing an actor as the embellished black-and-white character of the OG protag after the rape happens and the director calls a wrap and we discover the woman is an actor.
I think it's a well written scene involving the subject matter, but that's a personal opinion. It's a bit confronting but it does do a number of things for the plot without being 'real'.
The player only realises they're playing an actor as the embellished black-and-white character of the OG protag after the rape happens and the director calls a wrap and we discover the woman is an actor.
I think it's a well written scene involving the subject matter, but that's a personal opinion. It's a bit confronting but it does do a number of things for the plot without being 'real'.
Then why include it at all? For the sake of edginess? For a sick joke? You're not helping your case, here.
Has someone checked the journal? Arthur usually shares his inner thoughts there
The way this is handled is pretty lazy and just for shock, which is a shame cause there was an opportunity for a meaningful storyline here. Not that I would expect that from Rockstar.
Yeah I couldn't believe it when this happened. I didn't know what to think.
Another small tidbit I'll add. A while later back at camp I had Bill make fun of me for this event and once again I was stunned. Bascally Bill came up to me and said something about meeting this guy that knew all about me. ALL about me. Arthur then responded angrily and embarrassed. I definitely interpreted this to be talking about this rape event. So not only do you get raped. You get humiliated about it in a character interaction later on.
I assume that only happens if you don't go back to kill the rapist, which I didn't.
Another small tidbit I'll add. A while later back at camp I had Bill make fun of me for this event and once again I was stunned. Bascally Bill came up to me and said something about meeting this guy that knew all about me. ALL about me. Arthur then responded angrily and embarrassed. I definitely interpreted this to be talking about this rape event. So not only do you get raped. You get humiliated about it in a character interaction later on.
I assume that only happens if you don't go back to kill the rapist, which I didn't.
There's some implication that
Yeah, even though I'm super sensitive to this stuff I will defend that scene. For one, it's not rape in-universe (only actors playing a rape scene), and it feeds into the core themes of how violence is represented in the media and how that impacts other people.
Considering MGSV: Ground Zeroes and Red Dead Redemption II didn't even get the harshest rating in Australia's classification, Hotline Miami 2 should not have been banned.
The "This game has murder in it too" and "Murder traumatizes ppl too" deflections are forgetting that violence and murder are implied and advertised in media for the game while rape is not. Someone with murder related trauma is as likely to play Red Dead Redemption as someone with rape related trauma would play Red Rape Redemption.
If this is all the time they devote to it, then they could have done without it. With right writers, it could had been turned into something impactful and thoughtful. But as of right now doesn't seem like it serves any purpose, just bad taste and probably there for shock value only.
For murder comparisons, killing is like the main game mechanic so it serves it's purpose there. Also while I haven't played Red Dead Redemption 2 yet, atleast in the first game concequences of such violence got little bit more time. Not on every occasion someone is killed of course, but it's explored much more than rape is in here. This quick scene serves no purpose for the game and doesn't improve it in any way or make it more interesting.
I'm definitely not against of games dealing with heavy subject matters like rape, but I don't think this is the way to do it. They have it in the game, it's then okay to criticize it.
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I got a feeling they didnt want to point this out for fear that they got blacklisted and wont get a review copy in future games
Whats your point? If you can't see the chasm of difference between how violence & rape is treated in RDR2...
It's more Bill mocking Arthur and his circumstance, and he's ultimately a villain. If John Marston mocked it, then I'd feel that would be out-of-character and strangely written. Bill or Micah doing it, especially in the context of the times? I'd expect that to be the case.
It's not that a game shouldn't be allowed to go there, but no one at Rockstar displays an ounce of the tact and nuance necessary to deal with it without it essentially trivializing a traumatic & violating experience. Doesn't really help that critics largely tugged off the Housers over GTA IV & GTA V's writing.
Yep, I'm still fkn salty about that, and perhaps it's one of the reasons I love that game so much. Despite the ban I've legitimate copies of it on digitally on Steam, PS4, and physically on Vita.
You can even choose in the options to turn off scenes like although (although afaik it's the only one).
Oh damn i came across this scene but didn't realize he actually raped Arthur. I must've zoned out or something, i just remember that i thought the dude knocked Arthur out, robbed him and then threw him out somewhere. Crazy.
Huh? Did you read the post or watch the scene or just...want to be one of those posts lol
Well... " I am... not sure how I feel about this. I actually felt really violated and cant stop thinking about it"
Well, I bounced off of Red Dead Redemption II and never played enough to encounter this scene, and this is the first time I'm hearing about it (and seeing it via one of the thread's earlier YouTube links).
The scene is not at all pleasant, and given the limited scope of knowledge about the variety of options you have to respond to it, it doesn't seem to carry any sort of significant conversation about the trauma and coping of sexual violence -- just either apparently get mocked by an NPC at camp for it ever having happened to you or an understated revenge moment that doesn't really try to grasp at the lingering negative weight that an encounter like that could leave on a person. For a game that embellishes itself with promises of matching the open freedom ideal of the Wild West with a narrative about the difficulties of being human in a place like the Wild West, the handling of the subject matter at hand here does not even seem to try to do much other than be a shocking gag -- I even feel it's a bit of a stretch to point to this scene as just an immersive example of the lawlessness and moral callousness of the West, because your options don't really do anything to handle the subject with any level of gravity that might be applicable to healing or coping with it. It absolutely does not make any attempt to add it to the various other forms of trauma and It's done in poor taste, when it didn't necessarily have to be, considering the various other narrative achievements people praise this game for. And for the record, even though I barely made any progress into the game myself, I believe most people about the narrative achievements in the game -- it is just a shame that this scene's inclusion is so at odds with the high quality consideration of tragedies that it otherwise has, given the immense gravity that sexual assault has on a person.
But okay, we can whataboutism all day about the violence and how that's carefully examined over and over, but the rape scene is fine as just a "LOL well okay Arthur get in there and murder him too and it'll all be fine, right?"
Could even be the typical lessened response due to the male on male nature of the sexual violence this scene portrays, in which case we just have even deeper problems...
The scene is not at all pleasant, and given the limited scope of knowledge about the variety of options you have to respond to it, it doesn't seem to carry any sort of significant conversation about the trauma and coping of sexual violence -- just either apparently get mocked by an NPC at camp for it ever having happened to you or an understated revenge moment that doesn't really try to grasp at the lingering negative weight that an encounter like that could leave on a person. For a game that embellishes itself with promises of matching the open freedom ideal of the Wild West with a narrative about the difficulties of being human in a place like the Wild West, the handling of the subject matter at hand here does not even seem to try to do much other than be a shocking gag -- I even feel it's a bit of a stretch to point to this scene as just an immersive example of the lawlessness and moral callousness of the West, because your options don't really do anything to handle the subject with any level of gravity that might be applicable to healing or coping with it. It absolutely does not make any attempt to add it to the various other forms of trauma and It's done in poor taste, when it didn't necessarily have to be, considering the various other narrative achievements people praise this game for. And for the record, even though I barely made any progress into the game myself, I believe most people about the narrative achievements in the game -- it is just a shame that this scene's inclusion is so at odds with the high quality consideration of tragedies that it otherwise has, given the immense gravity that sexual assault has on a person.
But okay, we can whataboutism all day about the violence and how that's carefully examined over and over, but the rape scene is fine as just a "LOL well okay Arthur get in there and murder him too and it'll all be fine, right?"
Could even be the typical lessened response due to the male on male nature of the sexual violence this scene portrays, in which case we just have even deeper problems...
A better descriptor would have been "sexual violence"
Rape falls neatly between Sexual Content and intense violence thatbyou would t expect to see it there. It's a whole other kind of violation that should be rated on the label.
I would think the whole point is to shock and show how ugly that world is, because of how glorified wild west can be? and that even your protagonist is not immune to that sort of violence...
in any case, I would certainly feel uncomfortable, I can't think of any other game that places you in this position.
but all things considered again I think it fits for the reason I mentioned earlier.
in any case, I would certainly feel uncomfortable, I can't think of any other game that places you in this position.
but all things considered again I think it fits for the reason I mentioned earlier.
I'd be interested to know the reasoning for the inclusion of this scene, from whoever idea it was. This got me thinking about another game which I remember having sexual assault scene, Phantasmagoria. Atleast Roberta Williams gave some reasoning for it in an interview. http://www.adventureclassicgaming.com/index.php/site/interviews/127
I don't see any purpose for the scene in RDR, it feels entirely detached from the rest of it.
Yeah, I was left scratching my head when I first encountered this. Posted about it in the OT too. It was just kind of...out of left field. Like no build up or real conclusion/impact to it, just another random 1 minute thing you can run into out of the hundreds in the game and then gets forgotten about. And I think that's what the issue is with it, not necessarily that there is a rape scene in the game. I don't know, I think it is really weird that it's in the game.
Also, I've seen people mention that Trevor rapes someone in GTAV, but when does this happen? I can't remember anything like that.
Also, I've seen people mention that Trevor rapes someone in GTAV, but when does this happen? I can't remember anything like that.
Not really a "rape scene," or a video game, but I feel Jessica Jones does a very good job exploring rape/rape culture in a nuanced lens, at least as an outsider who (thankfully) has no experience with those things.
There's a scene that can happen when you switch to him where he's laying next to Floyd, and Floyd is crying and wearing a woman's sweat suit.
I guess if you want to strive for a realistice depiction of America as a openworld (which I believe the game does), these kind of contents are necessary.
That's my answer for whether the game should have rape scenes.
What's the best implementation of that kind of design and whether RockStar did a good job is another question.
That's my answer for whether the game should have rape scenes.
What's the best implementation of that kind of design and whether RockStar did a good job is another question.
