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Muhammad

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Mar 6, 2018
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On reddit, AMD's spokesman Scott Herkelman revealed that they planned the reveal along side console launches so that "hardware vendor specific "proprietary" Ray Tracing technique or other GPU features slows down and bifurcates the industry to adopting next gen features"




Is this why UE5 lacks any RT support in it's current iteration?
 

BigTnaples

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Oct 30, 2017
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Does it lack support or they haven't shown it yet? It would be odd if it didn't since they've come so far implementing RT into UE4..
 

Deleted member 12790

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They mean it's not demonstrating vendor specific raytracing extensions, not that it doesn't utilize raymarching. Different GPU manufacturers have different extensions in their drivers, this is why you'll sometimes see things like "better on Nvidia." What they are saying is they ignored all of those, and did raymarching through GPGPU. In other words, using a core profile, so to speak in GL terms.

Without a doubt UE5 will support vendor specific extensions.
 

Deleted member 21709

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I'd rather not have RT if it means we can have more of everything else. The lighting they showed looks more than great enough.
 

TooBusyLookinGud

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The demo was already 1440p @ 30. Add RT and I wonder how it would perform then?

I am sure UE5 will support it in some form for both consoles.
 

TheMadTitan

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Oct 27, 2017
27,208
I honestly did not understand what he meant by that.
It means no one has to adopt AMD's version of RTX to achieve ray tracing or ray tracing with bigass performance hits like they would of say, a game used raytracing on a GTX 1080 versus a 2080.

At least that's how I understood it. This is pretty much a Freesync/G-Sync thing for easier raytracing.
 

Deleted member 12790

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I honestly did not understand what he meant by that.

when you do graphics programming, you speak with a specific language to talk to your GPU. To make games interoperable between GPU manufacturers, they support a common, agreed upon set of standard features, called a "core profile." In order to be, for example, Vulkan or DirectX 12 compliant, a GPU must adhere to a set of core standards regarding what kind of language features their card supports.

Beyond this core profile are what are known as extensions. These are specific additional features that cards have specific to their build. Not only are there vendor-specific extensions, like extensions that only exist on Nvidia or AMD, but there are even architecture-specific extensions, features that only exist on certain ranges of cards from those GPU makers. Example, many Nvidia architectures can support DirectX 12, but only turing cards can access their RTX extensions which handle raytracing in hardware.

What they said in their reply, is that the demo was built to ignore everything except the base standard. So no Nvidia or no AMD specific extensions, to give a better example of what the tech will look like across all hardware, instead of targeting specific extensions that (largely) get ignored in larger applications anyways. By using those specific extensions, they could push things even harder, and those extensions are inevitably exposed to the programmer, but the demo was built to explicitly ignore them.
 

tandeh

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Mar 21, 2020
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OP did not complete his quote see link, full quote :

"The other point that we, here at AMD, have been planning for is the timing with the console launches, to ensure that no hardware vendor specific "proprietary" Ray Tracing technique or other GPU features slows down and bifurcates the industry to adopting next gen features. With this console momentum and Microsoft's DXR for PCs, I'm hopeful we can push towards an open ecosystem for all gaming and gamers. "

From my understanding of this is Sony's implementation of any Raytracing will be different to the standard industry solution.
 
Last edited:
Nov 8, 2017
13,098
The full quote is pretty unclear what he means by this:

The other point that we, here at AMD, have been planning for is the timing with the console launches, to ensure that no hardware vendor specific "proprietary" Ray Tracing technique or other GPU features slows down and bifurcates the industry to adopting next gen features. With this console momentum and Microsoft's DXR for PCs, I'm hopeful we can push towards an open ecosystem for all gaming and gamers.

They've been planning what for the console launches exactly? Do they mean Ray Tracing support? The reveal of stuff running with RT? The person AMD is quoting on the reddit isn't talking about it, so the RT stuff seems a bit tangential even in context.
 

Sho_Nuff82

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Nov 14, 2017
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Here is the full paragraph for context:

What is exciting about the new consoles launching is that for those game developers who build games across PC and consoles, it will push them to incorporate leading next gen techniques to all audiences. It will take time for that to happen, however, given the budget that Sony and Microsoft will bring it will push our industry towards new realistic gaming possibilities. The other point that we, here at AMD, have been planning for is the timing with the console launches, to ensure that no hardware vendor specific "proprietary" Ray Tracing technique or other GPU features slows down and bifurcates the industry to adopting next gen features. With this console momentum and Microsoft's DXR for PCs, I'm hopeful we can push towards an open ecosystem for all gaming and gamers.

I don't think he's saying what the OP is saying (no raytracing support in UE5), I think they are saying they deliberately designed their PS5/Series X boards to not have "proprietary" RT techniques that could not be taken advantage of by the other console or (presumably) NVIDIA cards.

They do not want devs having to come up with multiple RT solutions, because it will slow adoption and implementation.

Edit: removed RTX to avoid confusion
 
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Deleted member 12790

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So the demo they showed was using raytracing code, and offloading that to hardware that supports it explicitly would improve performance? Is there some sort of efficiency loss in writing your own fragment shader other than it being an absolute pain in the ass to do so?

yes, there is. There are different cores inside of the GPU to handle different tasks, like RT cores, Tensor Cores, etc. These cores are application-specific integrated circuits (ASIC) built to handle tasks through electrical engineering. When they talk about RT cores, they're talking about hardware specifically built to handle the specific kinds of math needed for speedier raytracing. Relying on general purpose cores doesn't gain the advantage using RT cores does.
 

Ploid 6.0

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Oct 25, 2017
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I highly doubt UE5 lacks any RT, they just didn't show any off. UE5 not having RT support would be a downgrade since UE4 support it.
 
Nov 8, 2017
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I don't think he's saying what the OP is saying (no raytracing support in UE5), I think they are saying they deliberately designed their PS5/Series X boards to not have "proprietary" RTX techniques that could not be taken advantage of by the other console or (presumably) NVIDIA cards.

They do not want devs having to come up with multiple RT solutions, because it will slow adoption and implementation.

That interpretation doesn't really match up with reality, though - Nvidia's hardware runs on the same DXR API they're spruking in that paragraph, and their Vulkan RT extension is not hardware vendor locked, it's being rolled into Vulkan standards even though it originates from Nvidia engineering work.

It's definitely possible they're meaning it like you're interpreting it (implying that "RTX = vendor locked = closed = evil") but if so, they're being pretty misleading.
 

Sho_Nuff82

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Nov 14, 2017
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That interpretation doesn't really match up with reality, though - Nvidia's hardware runs on the same DXR API they're spruking in that paragraph, and their Vulkan RT extension is not hardware vendor locked, it's being rolled into Vulkan standards even though it originates from Nvidia engineering work.

It's definitely possible they're meaning it like you're interpreting it (implying that "RTX = vendor locked = closed = evil") but if so, they're being pretty misleading.

Apologies, should have written "RT" in both cases, not "RTX". The writer is not implying wrongdoing on NVIDIA's part.
 

DSP

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Oct 25, 2017
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That implicitly writes off current navi 5000 series cards, not even pointing to them in relation to this demo and just waiting for the momentum of new consoles and their new products. They can't even run this demo while we already know nvidia RTX cards can. That does hinder adoption of new technologies.
 

kami_sama

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Oct 26, 2017
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So is it like DXR where vendors take the api and convert to their architecture or they just implemented it on compute?
 

Deleted member 12790

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Naaaahhhh?

Why? Because of Nanite?

Because the demo already feaures raymarching, there is dynamic global illumination happening all over the demo. Those aren't being done with the hardware specifically in place yet to speed up those calculations. Using dedicated RT hardware will speed up the things already being done in the demo. They're showing off the stuff RT cores are built for, being brute forced with non-RT hardware. Lumen is, essentially, software-based simplified raymarching.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,098
That implicitly writes off current navi 5000 series cards, not even pointing to them in relation to this demo and just waiting for the momentum of new consoles and their new products. They can't even run this demo while we already know nvidia RTX cards can. That does hinder adoption of new technologies.

I sympathize with the people tasked with selling it. Also funny to see that other "leak" saying "Oh yeah, Turing will age like Kepler" - if Turing is ageing like Kepler I don't even know what the comparison point for Navi 1.0 is supposed to be, because it's outright not including hardware acceleration that it's competitor and future replacement has.
 

cjn83

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Jul 25, 2018
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Because the demo already feaures raymarching, there is dynamic global illumination happening all over the demo. Those aren't being done with the hardware specifically in place yet to speed up those calculations. Using dedicated RT hardware will speed up the things already being done in the demo. They're showing off the stuff RT cores are built for, being brute forced with non-RT hardware. Lumen is, essentially, software-based simplified raymarching.

Thanks, that's very exciting. I haven't looked in to Lumen, I thought it was based on some advanced fakery and not shooting rays.

That I brought up Nanite incidentally is that I have a memory in the back of my head that raytracing is more efficient, comparatively speaking, when there's a lot of detail in the world - which may or may not be relevant here.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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Can someone who is knowledgeable in this aspect and tell me what's the difference between Global Illumination and Ray Tracing ? I thought they are the same thing.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,098
Can someone who is knowledgeable in this aspect and tell me what's the difference between Global Illumination and Ray Tracing ? I thought they are the same thing.

Real time Global illumination is any method of determining direct and indirect illumination in a real time fashion. Ray Tracing is the simulation of rays bouncing around an environment.

Ray Traced Global Illumination is possible - GI that is calculated by bouncing rays to simulate light. But there are more simplified methods that do not model down to the ray-of-light-bouncing level.
 

TSM

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Oct 27, 2017
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I sympathize with the people tasked with selling it. Also funny to see that other "leak" saying "Oh yeah, Turing will age like Kepler" - if Turing is ageing like Kepler I don't even know what the comparison point for Navi 1.0 is supposed to be, because it's outright not including hardware acceleration that it's competitor and future replacement has.

Nvidia's RTX was pretty much a line in the sand. I doubt their GTX cards will fare any better in a couple years as games using all these shiny new features are released.
 

jett

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Oct 25, 2017
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The UE5 demo was about showing off new UE-specific tech.
 

squidyj

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Oct 25, 2017
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Can someone who is knowledgeable in this aspect and tell me what's the difference between Global Illumination and Ray Tracing ? I thought they are the same thing.

Global Illumination describes any sort of illumination that is not the simple interaction of a light source and a sample or surface being shaded. Shadowing, for instance, can be seen as a form of global illumination because it relies on more than the surface you're shading and the light source that is affecting it. Global Illumination techniques don't necessarily need to be ray tracing techniques, shadow mapping and virtual point lights are two examples of that.

Ray casting is the act of casting a ray into the scene, starting from it's origin and (usually) finding the first object that it intersects with. When this is achieved by 'marching' the ray forward step by step through a volume or area it's called ray marching. Ray casting is the basic operation of ray tracing algorithms which can then use the origin and the hit point of the ray in order to determine how the origin might affect the hitpoint's color or vice versa. An example of such an algorithm is Path Tracing which I will not describe here.

This means that when people use the term ray tracing they're generally talking about techniques that cast rays into the scene. We have been able to write ray tracing code that runs on the GPU for a long time now but only recently has specialized ray tracing hardware that helps improve the 'speed' of ray tracing been available in consumer GPUs. The demo today was not taking advantage of that specialized hardware (which is present in the consoles) and was instead using 'software' based solutions that (i presume) used a more general compute shader.
 

Deleted member 12790

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Global Illumination describes any sort of illumination that is not the simple interaction of a light source and a sample or surface being shaded. Shadowing, for instance, can be seen as a form of global illumination because it relies on more than the surface you're shading and the light source that is affecting it.

Ray casting is the act of casting a ray into the scene, starting from it's origin and (usually) finding the first object that it intersects with. When this is achieved by 'marching' the ray forward step by step through a volume or area it's called ray marching. Ray casting is the basic operation of ray tracing algorithms which can then use the origin and the hit point of the ray in order to determine how the origin might affect the hitpoint's color or vice versa. An example of such an algorithm is Path Tracing which I will not describe here.

This means that when people use the term ray tracing they're generally talking about techniques that cast rays into the scene. We have been able to write ray tracing code that runs on the GPU for a long time now but only recently has specialized ray tracing hardware that helps improve the 'speed' of ray tracing been available in consumer GPUs. The demo today was not taking advantage of that specialized hardware and was instead using 'software' based solutions that (i presume) used a more general compute shader.

IMO, the term "raymarching" should be used these days for GPGPU software based solutions, while "ray tracing" should be used for implementations specifically using RT ASICs to avoid confusion. Raymarching is the technique, raytracing is the hardware-based implementation.

Here's a good cheat sheet of raymarching algorithms from shader toy: https://www.shadertoy.com/view/Msf3Dr
 

SimpleCRIPPLE

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Oct 28, 2017
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I'd rather not have RT if it means we can have more of everything else. The lighting they showed looks more than great enough.
After playing through Metro Exodus on PC w/ global illumination, then seeing what they were doing today in UE5, I'd agree. I'll take the frames back. Their solution looks really solid from that demo.
 

Xx 720

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Nov 3, 2017
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perhaps when UE5 games start to roll out, the engine can do the lighting and cards with RT cores can do other things like reflections and shadows??
 

headspawn

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Oct 27, 2017
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Seems like a stretch and also, out of context I'm not sure it's saying what you're implying.

Also, doesn't Unreal Engine already support Ray Tracing for quite a while now?
 

P40L0

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Jun 12, 2018
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The UE5 demo Global Illumination was a form of software Ray Tracing which worked pretty well as we all seen.
When that demo and UE5 in general will also support hardware Ray Tracing offload (which both PS5 and XSX will offer) performance should only improve from there (so probably we would have that demo reaching 4K/30 or reconstructed 1440p/60).
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,205
After playing through Metro Exodus on PC w/ global illumination, then seeing what they were doing today in UE5, I'd agree. I'll take the frames back. Their solution looks really solid from that demo.

Not sure how it works, but the dev in here said hardware solution in new consoles will free up more resources than doing it all through software.
 

Alex840

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Oct 31, 2017
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Is there somewhere I can learn what the difference is between RTX and the lighting that Epic showed with UE5.

I assumed both were lighting Mandela based on computational data of light bouncing to simulate real lighting behaviour. I sense it's more complicated than that.
 

ray_caster

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Nov 7, 2017
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Thanks, that's very exciting. I haven't looked in to Lumen, I thought it was based on some advanced fakery and not shooting rays.

That I brought up Nanite incidentally is that I have a memory in the back of my head that raytracing is more efficient, comparatively speaking, when there's a lot of detail in the world - which may or may not be relevant here.
Nanite likely uses ray tracing in some form, which, if true, will also benefit from using dedicated hardware for the task. We do not know enough to say for sure, but one of the technical directors behind Nanite, Brian Karis, said he was heavily inspired by work done by Id Software (specifically Jon Olick and John Carmack) regarding very dense polygon mesh rendering using sparse voxel octrees and virtualized geometry (see interview with Carmack here and Olick's SIGGRAPH '08 presentation here). More in-depth information regarding the technology will be presented soon, but we have no date yet. In the mean time, Olick's twitter provides some qualified speculation into the workings behind the technology.
 

Deleted member 11276

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Nvidia's RTX was pretty much a line in the sand. I doubt their GTX cards will fare any better in a couple years as games using all these shiny new features are released.
Incorrect, Turing has all the features necessary for next gen parity, VRS, mesh shaders, hw accelerated DXR and Sampler Feedback. It's not comparable to Pascal or Navi 1 in any way. And the 2070 Super is already confirmed to run the new PS5 demo.
 
Nov 8, 2017
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Incorrect, Turing has all the features necessary for next gen parity, VRS, mesh shaders, hw accelerated DXR and Sampler Feedback. It's not comparable to Pascal or Navi 1 in any way. And the 2070 Super is already confirmed to run the new PS5 demo so I don't know what you are on about.

They're talking about the Turing GTX, not Turing RTX. As in, 1650, 1660, 1660ti etc. These cards still have many features, but lack RT cores and tensor cores.
 

Carn

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Oct 27, 2017
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Eh, ofcourse UE5 will feature RT. DF also mentioned it:

Hardware accelerated ray tracing will be supported in Unreal Engine 5, for example, but it's not a part of the PS5 tech demo revealed today. We'll have more soon on this remarkable piece of technology, but in the meantime, enjoy this first taste of what the next generation can really deliver.