Uber's self-driving car hit and killed a pedestrian because it didn't know they could exist outside of crosswalks

[Deleted member 13645]

Uber keeps shooting from the hip because they want to get rid of human drivers so fucking fast.

They might have some of the worst self-driving cars we know of that are used in society. Driving in wrong lanes, through red lights, through pedestrians...

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Considering that recently article on how rough things are looking financially for them, i'm not surprised. They pretty much need automated cars to take off or the long term isn't looking very good for them. In their rush and incompetence they've now killed multiple people. Fuck off, Uber.

 

[BLEEN]

It's well known that Uber is years behind everyone else. Their self-driving technology is utter dog shit. They've cobbled together some shit that looks like self-driving technology but it isn't even close to where everyone else is at.

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Yeah, I see that now. Currently reading up on it.

 

[Freakzilla]

I cannot believe with so little testing, self driving cars are on the streets....

 

[GulAtiCa]

That's pretty damning. Both on Uber and the driver

 

[Orayn]

Considering that recently article on how rough things are looking financially for them, i'm not surprised. They pretty much need automated cars to take off or the long term isn't looking very good for them.

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God I can't wait til they're gone. The business model of burning money as a loss "leader" until you're either scooped up by someone else or succeed in some impossible harebrained long game project is one of the worst things about late capitalism.

 

[sangreal]

And they put these cars on the road without any local, state or federal approval.

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They had the requisite approvals. Which was basically none, because it is (was) a red state and they don't care what happens to their citizens if it brings money

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/technology/arizona-tech-industry-favorite-self-driving-hub.html

 

[808s & Villainy]

Man it's really amazing to look back on all the people who thought in the next couple years human driven cars would be a relic. We are so far away still and that's with Trump around to strip away all the regulations.

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Not really sure how discounting that because of Uber makes any sense when they're way behind their competition. It's like thinking voice assistants can't ever be accurate and using Cortana as an example

 

[CHC]

Why Make it an SUV lol? Just want to make sure a large accident happens if it does

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Seriously! It kind of never occurred to me until looking at this but like... why not just start with some really small but quick RC car that emits a laser-measured "car zone" around it, which would be the size of an actual vehicle? Just to make sure you are capable of making a self-driving thing that knows its own safe zone but which won't do any real damage if it smacks into something or gets run over.

 

[Randomly Generated]

Yeah, I see that now. Currently reading up on it.

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Can you post a link? I'd love to read more about this.

 

[Linkura]

If corporations are people, then Uber should be charged with murder. The driver as well.

 

[Antrax]

his car would be a literal mass murderer in any major metropolitan city.

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It's actually pretty bad in rural areas as well since, if I'm understanding this correctly, the anti-false-positive process would probably kick in if you replace the pedestrian with, like, a deer or whatever. I can't count the number of times I've had to go on high alert in peak deer season. Would Uber's car just keep going until I've got a buck's antlers in my face?

I'm pretty confident it wasn't the engineers who came up with this as a legitimate solution.

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Engineers can often be bad at design. Especially when it comes to real-world use cases versus some simplified logical algorithm.

In this case, I can totally see some code monkey at Uber going "well it's not my fault she was jaywalking."

 

[Felt]

That is such a half ass measure for avoiding false positives Damn

 

[whatsinaname]

Seriously! It kind of never occurred to me until looking at this but like... why not just start with some really small but quick RC car that emits a laser-measured "car zone" around it, which would be the size of an actual vehicle? Just to make sure you are capable of making a self-driving thing that knows its own safe zone.

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I was speaking to a professor who worked on a team testing some autonomous systems. She said SUVs are easier to retrofit and work on due to the space available in the engine compartment and trunk.

 

[BLEEN]

Can you post a link? I'd love to read more about this.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...c83b9c-ffeb-11e9-9518-1e76abc088b6_story.html

There's one link. They literally retrofitted shit onto their cars. Not a good look.

 

[reKon]

Uber just seems like a terribly ran company (or maybe it's just certain divisions within the company?)

Weren't they taking loss, banking on the fact that this tech would come to fruition and the investment would pay off?

 

[dragonflys545]

We are gonna need another 20 years.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

Not really sure how discounting that because of Uber makes any sense when they're way behind their competition. It's like thinking voice assistants can't ever be accurate and using Cortana as an example

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I don't doubt we'll get there one day and there have been plenty of improvements but there is still a long way to go.

 

[Septimus Prime]

I'd imagine you start to get complacent when you're in a self-driving car.

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It was also one second over who knows how many hours of total road time. And if the driver had successfully averted the crisis, there'd be no article about it.

Not that Uber didn't fuck up here, but I think the big thing for the safety driver (who's really also a tester) is also that it's his job to act at the very last possible moment to see if the AI can fix its own error.

 

[CHC]

I was speaking to a professor who worked on a team testing some autonomous systems. She said SUVs are easier to retrofit and work on due to the space available in the engine compartment and trunk.

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Yeah truthfully I have no idea at all how big the computer needed is and what its power needs are. Just assumed it would be tiny enough to put in a little 25 cc RC car.

 

[Antrax]

God I can't wait til they're gone. The business model of burning money as a loss "leader" until you're either scooped up by someone else or succeed in some impossible harebrained long game project is one of the worst things about late capitalism.

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My theory is the tech boom, to this day, really irritates wealthy investors who didn't get in on the ground floor of those companies.

"Fuck, if I'd put ten million in Facebook in X year...."

So now a bunch of them are buying stock and financing these loss leaders for the same reason an upper middle class person in their fifties buys a sports car. Their rich friends all know they weren't savvy enough to invest in those successful companies, so now they gotta try and claw back that reputation.

 

[Ambient80]

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Lmao, oh man I'm a bad person for laughing at this, but it got me 😂😂😂

 

[Ambient80]

You guys realize it's not possible for these to improve without real world driving, right? The posts saying it's too dangerous to be on the road, that's the exact reason they always have human operators.

But this looked like a combination of a ridiculous algorithm that failed to account for jaywalkers and an operator who was slacking off

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You're right, but I'm also pretty certain it doesn't take real world driving to know you should have the software detect people even if they're not at a crosswalk.

 

[thesoapster]

Call Lyft instead

 

[GoldenEye 007]

You guys realize it's not possible for these to improve without real world driving, right? The posts saying it's too dangerous to be on the road, that's the exact reason they always have human operators.

But this looked like a combination of a ridiculous algorithm that failed to account for jaywalkers and an operator who was slacking off

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The general public, with no consent, cannot serve as guinea pigs as it stands now...

If you're going to do real world testing, then more guidelines should be required along with requiring these "test drivers" to be specifically vetted, certified, and trained beyond just having a drivers license. Just like I'd expect test pilots to be a step above regular pilots.

 

[Monkey D.]

Insanity. We're not even close with this tech, imo.

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"This tech".
Is every selfdriving car using the same tech?

And looking at the video posted in this thread who would have reacted fast enough?

 

[dennett316]

This shit shouldn't be on the road until it can detect humans anywhere and everywhere...and there most definitely should be no delay between detection and braking. A delay of even a second sees a car travel a decent distance, and could be the difference between saving a life and ending one. They need to be ready for every eventuality, humans often are where they shouldn't be on the road. It should be able to detect a human lying in the street, never mind standing. The real failure here though was the driver in the car, obviously not paying attention and allowing this shitty software to tie itself in knots.

 

[Foffy]

I cannot believe with so little testing, self driving cars are on the streets....

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There has been good testing on other projects in various states. For example, Waymo pilots in California and the driverless truck pilots in Nevada seemed to go off without a hitch. I can't speak for the regulatory guidelines for Arizona, but it seems every botch with Uber's efforts, they're in states that seem rather lax on guidelines for driverless cars.

For reference, Waymo's cars were on the road with no steering wheels but Cali said they had to be installed just to be extra safe. I'd imagine if Uber tried a vehicle that had no steering wheel, it would try to drive off of a bridge.

 

[molnizzle]

Actual footage at the human safety driver not paying any attention.

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Shameful.

I wonder if he would've been able to do anything though? Watching the video, I couldn't see the pedestrian until the last second. In this case I feel like a human driver would've still struck her.

 

[BLEEN]

"This tech".
Is every selfdriving car using the same tech?

And looking at the video posted in this thread who would have reacted fast enough?

Not expecting many honest replies.

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Def. not but I would expect it to be unequivocally better than the human eye and reaction time. Is it a high bar? Yeah but it needs to be.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

Not good, but tesla self driving tech can detect other cars and ppl on the road.

Not doubt self driving vehicles are coming, first it will be trucks on the freeway with humans taking over in urban areas,, and taxi self driving cars taking specific routes. More general self driving is probably 15yrs away. But between then and now a lot of self driving vehicles will appear on public roads.

 

[Arex]

If there was a driver inside then the fault lies with him I reckon.

 

[808s & Villainy]

The general public, with no consent, cannot serve as guinea pigs as it stands now...

If you're going to do real world testing, then more guidelines should be required along with requiring these "test drivers" to be specifically vetted, certified, and trained beyond just having a drivers license. Just like I'd expect test pilots to be a step above regular pilots.

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There are guidelines. These cars aren't just allowed on the road. But guidelines can't prevent all accidents from happening. We still have car accidents despite people requiring a license, which requires specific tests and training and despite cars also requiring a number of safety features, both for pedestrians and passengers

https://azdot.gov/motor-vehicles/pr...-vehicles-testing-and-operating-state-arizona

 

[Kin5290]

Honestly I'm not sure that an attentive human driver would have been able to spot a person crossing an unlit street in the middle of the night while traveling at speed with enough time to hit the brakes. The poor woman was only lit by the car's headlights in that video.

 

[Touchdown]

Actual footage at the human safety driver not paying any attention.

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Jesus, we really are going to end up like the Wall E movie

 

[BarringGaffner]

'It didn't know' is a nice way of shifting blame onto the vehicle instead of the designers and Uber. 'Silly car!'

 

[FeliciaFelix]

I feel I need to enjoy Uber Eats while it lasts; Uber the company is not long for this world...

 

[Froyo Love]

Shameful.

I wonder if he would've been able to do anything though? Watching the video, I couldn't see the pedestrian until the last second. In this case I feel like a human driver would've still struck her.

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Honestly I'm not sure that an attentive human driver would have been able to spot a person crossing an unlit street in the middle of the night while traveling at speed with enough time to hit the brakes. The poor woman was only lit by the car's headlights in that video.

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Even if a human only hit the brakes half a second before impact, that would make a big difference in how much force the woman was struck with and might well have saved Herzberg's life. The Uber car hit her at full speed, because of multiple stupid, preventable design decisions.

 

[Dyle]

If your software is so bad that you have to give it a one second delay, it shouldn't be on the road at all. Like usual, one idiot not doing their work right is going to screw it up for everyone else doing it correctly.

 

[Camwi]

Did anyone watch the video?? She was jay-walking at night in a dark area. Many deaths occur like this by human drivers. They in fact had a human safety driver who was not paying attention either.

Not excusing the poor coding done by Uber for this, but this type of technology will save countless lives taking the human factor out of the equation eventually. Hopefully in 10 years mistakes like this will not happen.

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I was thinking the same thing. I find it hard to believe that anybody could have stopped in time to not hit that person, even if they were completely alert.

 

[Deleted member 6582]

This is kinda a gross misinterpretation of how supervised learning works. Basically it was a car in cruise-control getting data and had never encountered a pedestrian crossing a highway. The safety driver was supposed to be supervising it not relying on it.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Shameful.

I wonder if he would've been able to do anything though? Watching the video, I couldn't see the pedestrian until the last second. In this case I feel like a human driver would've still struck her.

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I'm sure they could have taken full control and hit the brakes, so yes. They could have done something.

 

[Feep]

While the software design seems to be inadequate, I am not placing blame on Uber. It is a *known fact* that these vehicles aren't ready for full autonomy; the law explicitly prohibits any actual autonomy in all fifty states. The driver is solely ethically and legally responsible, because we're all aware that even the best tech solution, Tesla's, isn't yet ready for primetime.

In addition, the jaywalker was, you know, jaywalking, in the dark. Maybe the human driver couldn't have reacted in time, even were they paying attention. This is not at all a condemnation of autonomous vehicles...though other legitimate gripes do exist, this situation is not at all one of them.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Honestly I'm not sure that an attentive human driver would have been able to spot a person crossing an unlit street in the middle of the night while traveling at speed with enough time to hit the brakes. The poor woman was only lit by the car's headlights in that video.

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Eh, really its hard to say just going by a digital video with a wide angle lens.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

There are guidelines. These cars aren't just allowed on the road. But guidelines can't prevent all accidents from happening. We still have car accidents despite people requiring a license, which requires specific tests and training and despite cars also requiring a number of safety features, both for pedestrians and passengers

https://azdot.gov/motor-vehicles/pr...-vehicles-testing-and-operating-state-arizona

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The bar is going to be even higher here though. If this new technology wants to get off the ground quickly, stuff like this can't happen.

And I said beyond a license. In a testing environment are there any recordings of the inside and outside of the car? Audio/video to help record what's going on? Is there a special certification required to ensure drivers overseeing the car understand the automation and know when to intervene? Are there requirements that zero distractions are allowed and the driver must be alert and ready immediately?

I get that regular drivers suck. But this tech is being billed to upend traditional driving and has to answer for safety in any condition.

 

[Mr. Von Touchdown]

This sounds like the kind of incident that should just outright end a company, regardless of who's at fault. Hitting a pedestrian under any circumstance is unacceptable.

 

[JLP101]

I assume the family is going to sue Uber at this point.

 

[RiZ IV]

If your self driving car is too prone to false positives and the best solution you can come up with is to build in a 1 second delay, then YOUR SELF DRIVING CAR SHOULD NOT BE ON THE ROAD. Damn it, people.

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This is exactly what I was thinking. My God, this is not the kind of thing you put a magic sleep into! This whole thing should be shut down if this is their level of competence.

 

[Roland Garros]

Lots of hyperbole in this thread. As usual. To me, it's a bit of a catch 22. The cars need to be on the roads to improve the way they react to obstacles and variables, and if we take them off the road they won't get there... which is a shame, because they are still much safer than the average driver.

A tough situation.

 

[Adventureracing]

I cannot believe with so little testing, self driving cars are on the streets....

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Whilst I agree that this incident is unacceptable I'm not sure I agree with the general discourse around driverless cars and how dangerous they are.

Have y'all ever driven a car or read how many people die on the road every year? Reading threads like this paints driverless cars as someone death trap on wheels while cars with humans behind the wheels are totally safe.

I understand why driverless cars need to be held to a different standard but I feel like the discussion surrounding them is extremely flawed.

 

[rokkerkory]

Yeah fuck automated cars