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U.S. Soccer says the women's team should be paid less because they just aren't as good as the men's team
- Thread starter Coyote Starrk
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More like a practice match. No limit on subs, players don't play necessarily with uniforms, sometimes they even happen in smaller fields.
But again, I'm not asking the USMNT to bulldoze smaller teams. I'm saying that playing low-level opponents isn't exclusive to the women's team, no matter the score.
At least since the 90s, although it's hard to compare them before considering the amateur state of women's soccer. It only became a pro sport in the 90s, and 1996 was the first time it was an Olympic competition. So basically, during their entire lifespan, the women's team has been better.
I find it stranger to think that they'd let teenagers beat them 5-2 just for good fun.
They are correct that they aren't as good. But that's irrelevant to what the women should be making. Sport is an entertainment business, and i'd say that based on popularity and revenue earning potential, the women's soccer team is deserving of making at LEAST as much as the national men's team. imo.
US Soccer should pay the same for matches played, benefits etc. In fact the men should also get paternity leave. But USSF shouldn't have to make up the difference in FIFA prize money.
But the women are intentionally misleading the general public when they don't state that they will not give up the guaranteed contracts and salaries. They have a different pay structure than the men, so what is equal pay here?
The reasoning that men's football is harder work is not exactly wrong. The men's team has to play the best footballers in the world from the best leagues in the world who are bred as elite super human athletes in countries where football is a religion. Women's football is just not played at that level.
Not sure you phrased that correctly. The NATIONAL women's team is more popular, than the men's NATIONAL team.
Men's soccer in the US is still more popular than women's soccer.
It's easier to just handwave it away and say they weren't taking the game seriously. Professional pride is a thing. No matter who the opponent.
Again the investment is just a recent phenomenon. The competition in women's soccer is nowhere near interest. CONMENBOL, AFC and CAF barely invest and it shows. I don't what you are arguing and trying to justify. The competition is just not as good on the women's side.
You underestimate the talent 14 year old kids playing on these types of teams have. It's not even a slight to the Women's team. They are far and away the most talented women's team and they deserve equitable pay.
Calling it harder work is wrong. You can't equate the level of talent they generally face against the level of training and dedication they put into their craft.
The development of the Women's game worldwide is no where near the men's game. (Which btw whose fault is that? Rhetorical question, its mens fault) we can acknowledge that but in the same notion you arent going to reach a more equitable situation if all we're ever gonna do is dog the womens game for not being as competitive as the dudes as if that is just naturally how it turned out with 0 outside influences.
it's not just about wages. Youth set-ups, facilities and player care globally are far superior in the men's game.
Just split the development of men and women into separate companies, and let the women run their own and get the higher pay they deserve.
I still don't see why the men's national team players should be paid zero. Most MLS players are not going be multimillionaires in their lifetimes.
The Average Base Salary for Senior Roster Non-Designated Players in MLS reached $345,867 in 2019, up 13.3% over the previous year with double-digit growth across the roster. - NBC, 12 Jun 2019
In the WSL, the average figure is reportedly around £27,000, although recent restructuring means that there are increasingly fewer players only receiving £5,000-£10,000 per annum from the game. - Goal.com , 16 Jun 2019
Football talent has always and will always be grown from grassroots development. Increasing wages at the highest level is nice but the systems for bringing young girls through to the professional level and wages for players at all levels needs to massively improve to be sustainable long term and to bring the game closer to parity with the Men's game.
Oh yeah quoting the latest labor contract from MLS.
Again
Look at those minimums. Again nothing you say justifies paying the men zero. So what are you on about?
Under-24s making a guaranteed $60k to play in a league that still struggles in quality is a privileged position. The point is, the pathway for young boys to becoming professionals has been paved for decades while the women's game still struggles globally.
not for people retiring in their mid 30s. Again no justification in not paying the men for international matches.
Sometimes lawyers have to make arguments that sounds callous or offensive but are, in truth, based on long standing legal doctrines, and are necessary to argue in order to effectively represent a client.
This is not one of those times. Not only is the argument patently offensive. It isn't even a good argument in terms of the lawsuit.
This is not one of those times. Not only is the argument patently offensive. It isn't even a good argument in terms of the lawsuit.
The women's team is far more important to US Soccer than the men's team could ever dream of being. Not only is the team exceedingly more successful, they have a strong social presence and are the names and faces of "US Soccer". I couldn't name a single player on the men's team and yet off the top of my head I know that the following players all have STRONG name / brand power: Megan Rapinoe, Crystal Dunn, Julie Ertz, Rose Lavelle, Ashlynn Harris, Tobin Heath, Carly Lloyd, Sam Mewis, and Christen Press. And that's just off the top of my head. Seriously, go check out their social media presence and the related Instagram accounts. They're the icons of US Soccer. The men who make up the team that gets consistently dunked on are not.
It's obvious most people in this thread have absolutely no idea how tough CONCACAF can be even for teams like Mexico and the US. Anyone who actually watches international soccer outside of the World Cup knows that even a team like Mexico can't walk into Honduras and expect a win without putting in some serious work. You have to deal with hostile conditions, harsh weather, terrible fields, and asinine refereeing. Mexico themselves were minutes away from completely missing qualification for 2014. The US is not THAT good that they can afford to slip up and have a bad game during qualifiers as we all saw in 2018. But that's also because their competition is relatively stronger. People love to shit on the Trinidad game but forget to mention that Trinidad themselves made it to the Hexagonal which is no easy feat and they're also former WC participants so it's not like we're talking about San Marino here.
So to see people here calling the teams that the men have to play "garbage" pretty much tells you everything you need to know about their knowledge of the sport.
People here really don't need to disparage the men's team in order to support the women's one. You just look pretty ignorant when you do.
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Speaks to the ignorance of the general populace regarding soccer and the fact that they pay attention only during WC cycles. How many Americans know NWSL exists?
Hoping as long time fan that this is generation put this shit to rest. And band wagoners just cease to exist.
I'm not even American but it's irksome to see people here put down their own national team the way they do.
I'm from Canada so I know what it's like to actually follow a "bad" team who hasn't come close to qualitfying to the World Cup is almost 30 years. And this is with being one of the richest countries in CONCACAF which goes to show it doesn't mean much when we're years behind in player development and the culture is not there to speed it up.
At least we have Alphonso Davies now!
The fact that qualifiers for men's soccer is an event by itself is a good example why male players tend to get paid more. How many people here actually watched the qualifiers for the Women's World Cup? What about the preolympics which took place less than 2 months ago?
On the other hand, sponsors and broadcaster pay a good amount of money for rights to the men games that are not even World Cup games. For example, the USA playing Mexico during qualifiers is a huge event for both countries. Money made It's more than just winning tournaments in this sport.
I'm Canadian too, but to be honest I cheer against the favourites most of the time. I root against team Canada at the ice hockey olympics because they win all the time and that's boring.
good. Also,once again fuck the clowns running US Soccer. I relish every opportunity to root against our Men's team. I'm laughing hard at the defense force for them itt, granted it's like 2 people but still. Enjoy caping for a garbage organization and a C level product on the pitch
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Agreed that some of the lawyers arguments are gross, especially the "they don't work as hard" one. That definitely comes off as sexist. There's no evidence to suggest the women don't put in as much time, or suffer the same amount of mental and physical fatigue.
The men's team *is* better than the women's team though - - they are bigger, stronger, and faster based simply on biology. For a lot of people, the higher the level of competition, the more appeal it has. For instance, pro sports are more profitable than college sports, college sports are more profitable than high school sports, etc. Men's sports are more popular than women's sports in large part for those exact same reasons (I understand for some people it revolves around sexism).
Yes, the women's team has been more successful in terms of win percentage and trophies.
To those of you advocating the women's team should be paid an equal amount to the men, would you also argue that a minor league baseball player that is on a winning team should be paid as much as an MLB player on a losing team? Or that a WNBA player on a winning team make as much as an NBA player on a losing team?
Equating winning or losing with payment rights completely ignores the concept of demand. More people in the world are interested in men's sports than women's sports, and gate totals/tv revenue reflect that.
NBA makes more than WNBA
PGA makes more than LPGA
MLS makes more than NWSL
FIFA Men's WC makes more than FIFA Women's WC
And frankly it's not particularly close. An entertainment service, which sports teams are, makes money based on demand, and there is simply more demand for men's sports.
The men's team *is* better than the women's team though - - they are bigger, stronger, and faster based simply on biology. For a lot of people, the higher the level of competition, the more appeal it has. For instance, pro sports are more profitable than college sports, college sports are more profitable than high school sports, etc. Men's sports are more popular than women's sports in large part for those exact same reasons (I understand for some people it revolves around sexism).
Yes, the women's team has been more successful in terms of win percentage and trophies.
To those of you advocating the women's team should be paid an equal amount to the men, would you also argue that a minor league baseball player that is on a winning team should be paid as much as an MLB player on a losing team? Or that a WNBA player on a winning team make as much as an NBA player on a losing team?
Equating winning or losing with payment rights completely ignores the concept of demand. More people in the world are interested in men's sports than women's sports, and gate totals/tv revenue reflect that.
NBA makes more than WNBA
PGA makes more than LPGA
MLS makes more than NWSL
FIFA Men's WC makes more than FIFA Women's WC
And frankly it's not particularly close. An entertainment service, which sports teams are, makes money based on demand, and there is simply more demand for men's sports.
That's part of what makes this so ridiculous. The women's team literally brings in more money.
I would care more about your points if Women's sports hadn't been kneecapped at almost every possible opportunity since the beginning of the 20th century. The levels of investment have not been anywhere close to equitable at any level of of sport. So, there isn't a 1 to 1 comparison to be made there.
This next part is tales from my ass, but as far as the women's game goes, the level of investment worldwide in the last decade or so has had a very clear affect on the product. This fight is another salvo in that war.
Also, glad that chucklehead stepped down.
"There is also evidence that MNT players face tougher competition, even on a relative basis," the defense motion stated. "There is a significantly deeper pool of competition in men's international soccer than there is in women's international soccer, even when assessing the issue in relative terms."
Theres a bigger difference between the mens abilities than the difference between the women's abilities?
Yeah, I'm going to need receipts on that chief.
Theres a bigger difference between the mens abilities than the difference between the women's abilities?
Yeah, I'm going to need receipts on that chief.
Honestly, I would say yes to a lot of what you're proposing. Minor League players are given laughably little money for what is expected of them. WNBA players deserve way better compensation then what they get for the strain they put themselves under. The way players are treated by management is generally pretty terrible and should be challenged in all sports. So why should I object when the people who put their bodies and their health at risk to entertain crowds fight to get better wages and treatment. Especially because many of them are one bad injury away from losing their livelihood?
Also not all sports are given the exposure or opportunity to build audiences. Women's sports in general get almost no exposure, and it is only the continued success of this team that has allowed them to break into the national consciousness.
I mean, good for you? Clearly the outcry was loud enough that he had to step down, outcry from so many circles, from so many notable voices. But nope not a big deal to some in here . Your POV and "stealth" sexism is gross, you'd probably rather the guy didn't step down.
The funny thing is there is nothing you can say. There's absolutely nothing you can say that will make the men's team any better, their leadership any less embarrassing.
Have fun rooting for losers* xoxo. Edit* That's a poor choice of words, because even rooting for losers can be fun, but this particular brand of losers is backed by so many closet sexist, delusional fans that just hate that they are the second most popular national team in their own country. Even the American Outlaws called this nonsense out. I look forward to yet again hearing about them "about to breakthrough" and "the Hex is no joke" for the next decade while they continue to flop over and over
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so many fucking dumb assumptions.But then again you have said dumb shit before. "Stealth" sexism, my ass. Point it out if you think that's the case.
To your first point, it's just simple economics. If one team/league brings in 10 million, each participant gets a share of that 10 million dollar pie. If another league brings in 1 million, each participant gets a share of that pie. That's the difference in the salary. To me that's not a fair pay issue, it's simply a case of player/league being a more compelling/profitable product, and therefore are appropriately compensated.
To your second point, it seems you are making the argument that women's sports have less exposure mainly because of sexism, which I agree is a factor. But back to my last comment, I think the lack of exposure has a lot more to do with audiences wanting to watch the best of the best, which again, due to biology, women are not.
I'm all for what the NBA did in re-investing their own profits to increase the salaries for WNBA players so that it is a more enticing option for female athletes, but suggesting they should make as much as NBA players is asinine.
I think he is saying the men's game is much more competitive, which it is. There really aren't many women's teams on the level of the US women's team. The 13-0 against Thailand, at World Cup level, shouldn't be happening.
My position is more that in almost all cases I support players using whatever power they have to negotiate better benefits and pay for themselves as a collective. WNBA players will never get even close to what NBA athletes make, but I would hope if WNBA teams started generating the kind of attention the Women's soccer team is, they would use that attention to get better wages and treatment.
Sports as a business feels like a fairly predatory industry. On the College level it encourages young people to devote themselves entirely to the sport at the expense of a real education, then refuses to compensate them for their work. At the Minor League level their given pretty awful pay all with the hope that eventually they will get a shot. Even professional sports abuse their athletes like how the NFL has tried to minimize research into the damage caused by C.T.E damage, so even if you do make good money you're potentially broken by the time you retire.
So I tend to support any player organization that fights to support their workers. In this specific case the Women's team has done consistently great work. They have brought a lot of positive attention to the sport, and I feel they should be compensated for that. Even if they are not the "Best of the Best" across gender lines. If they have the public support to get better treatment then they absolutely should leverage it.
I do not deny my stance is idealistic, but if the best legal defense they have to deny a world cup winning team team better pay is just they're not as strong as the boys, then I have no reason to support them.
You use Minor League players as an example in your earlier post. They will never get equal payment with Major League players obviously, but that doesn't meant they shouldn't try and negotiate to the best of their ability for better wages. I doubt The Women's team will get exactly what they want in this case, but I truly hope that the publicity generated by this suit and the company's poor responses help them get as close to it as possible.
Naw I haven't Say anything but what you deserve, and I'm not making any assumptions your posts are doing a great job of shining a light on your POV's.
I suggest you and others like you try using your "well they would lose to men/well they got beat by 15-year-olds" to anyone with half a brain cell in real life and see how they react. That argument in 2020. Dying on the hill of " whoa equal pay for the women, hey now let's pump the brakes" in 2020. Absolute sexist bullshit.
Congratulations though I have now spent more time arguing over this than I have anything in a long time because So much of what you're saying is archaic and offensive.
Again, if it wasn't the deal you think it is why did the president of US soccer have to step down? Do you think he shouldn't have? If you're going to get me something about over reactions and cancel culture then you can just not respond at all